Finishing Question

Bill the Cat

Proud maker of CAT cues
Silver Member
I'm moving from repairs to cue making and finishing is giving me fits. I'm using water based polyurethane. The cue I'm working on now has an aluminum joint. The polyurethane won't bond to the aluminum. It ends up pealing off when I try to buff out the finish. I polished the aluminum joint before finishing. Should I rough it up to get a better bond? Any help would be appreciated!
 
Bill the Cat said:
I'm moving from repairs to cue making and finishing is giving me fits. I'm using water based polyurethane. The cue I'm working on now has an aluminum joint. The polyurethane won't bond to the aluminum. It ends up pealing off when I try to buff out the finish. I polished the aluminum joint before finishing. Should I rough it up to get a better bond? Any help would be appreciated!

What is the brand finish you are using? There is a few very good WB finishes out now, the technology is moving very fast and just a few years ago it would have been out of the question but not any more.
 
Last edited:
Bill the Cat said:
I'm moving from repairs to cue making and finishing is giving me fits. I'm using water based polyurethane. The cue I'm working on now has an aluminum joint. The polyurethane won't bond to the aluminum. It ends up pealing off when I try to buff out the finish. I polished the aluminum joint before finishing. Should I rough it up to get a better bond? Any help would be appreciated!
Why would you want to spray the joint collar? You're only creating problems for yourself.
 
butterflycues said:
I agree with the last post. Why would you spray a metal joint. Polish it. Buttterflycues

The joint he is using is Aluminum and it tarnishes very easy, it buffs out very well but bleeds black which can cause a problem. Solution is to go to an auto body shop and ask for a bonding agent. It's fairly new, past six months. I can't remember the name but it should do the trick, The other solution is to finish the joint to size but don't glue it yet, remove the joint and bring it to a metal shop and have it anodised.
 
Michael Webb said:
The joint he is using is Aluminum and it tarnishes very easy, it buffs out very well but bleeds black which can cause a problem. Solution is to go to an auto body shop and ask for a bonding agent. It's fairly new, past six months. I can't remember the name but it should do the trick, The other solution is to finish the joint to size but don't glue it yet, remove the joint and bring it to a metal shop and have it anodised.

So why use an aluminum joint in the first place? Why not stainless? If he's wanting to lighten the front end, a prefinished stainless sleeve could be used and still get approx the same result. Just my two cents worth, but I sure hate to see someone get off on the wrong foot.
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
So why use an aluminum joint in the first place? Why not stainless? If he's wanting to lighten the front end, a prefinished stainless sleeve could be used and still get approx the same result. Just my two cents worth, but I sure hate to see someone get off on the wrong foot.

I can only speculate in quoting his phrase, Just starting out. I did a couple of Aluminum and Brass joints starting out. What I learned from it was more valuble than asking. I don't think he's starting out wrong, just experimenting. I can respect that.
 
Michael Webb said:
I can only speculate in quoting his phrase, Just starting out. I did a couple of Aluminum and Brass joints starting out. What I learned from it was more valuble than asking. I don't think he's starting out wrong, just experimenting. I can respect that.

I hear ya. I still do a brass collar occasionally, I just didn't see the advantage to using aluminum and coating it. And you're correct, there's not a thing wrong with experimenting. The lessons learned do tend to stick with us don't they.
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
So why use an aluminum joint in the first place? Why not stainless? If he's wanting to lighten the front end, a prefinished stainless sleeve could be used and still get approx the same result. Just my two cents worth, but I sure hate to see someone get off on the wrong foot.

How thin a SS sleeve are you talking about? If you use a very thin sleeve how do you install the decorative collors behind it? They would have to be thin as well. I could see mounting the SS sleeve on a phenolic sleeve and boaring it out but it would have to be done very carefully.
 
First, I'd like to thank everybody...especially Mike Webb. I've learned a great deal from this forum, but I almost didn't post my question. There seem to be some people who would rather criticize than answer the stated question. Anyway, in response to those trying to help.....

I'm using MINWAX Polycrylic. It drys very clear. Good hard surface and it buffs out nice. I don't have a spray setup and I've been trying various methods of application. The latest is dipping.

As far as the choice of aluminum....just chance. The cue I'm working on is not a "build from scratch". I've purchased some old beat up cues and basically rebuilt them. Replace a joint, cut a new shaft, add a butt sleeve, whatever.

For Mike...the joint is already installed, so adonizing is not an easy option...although a good idea for the next time. For the sake of arguement. What if this was a refinish job for a customer. How would you deal with it. Would you remove and replace the joint after refinishing?

I'm still wondering if roughing up the aluminum would allow the poly to adhere....or is it a lost cause?

Thanks again to everybody!
 
Bill the Cat said:
One more note. I originally missed the suggestion about a bonding agent. I'll check on that!

The boding agent dries clear, it should help. We have lost to many cuemakers in this forum already, If their is something you want to ask but hesitate feel free to send me a pm. I'll do my best to help.
 
Bill the Cat said:
There seem to be some people who would rather criticize than answer the stated question. Anyway, in response to those trying to help.....
Do you feel like you were being criticized in this particular thread? I hope not, that was certainly not the intent.
 
Not that thin skinned

No, don't feel criticized. Even if I did, I can take it (and often need it :D ).

I sent you a PM to explain.
 
Bill the Cat said:
No, don't feel criticized. Even if I did, I can take it (and often need it :D ).

I sent you a PM to explain.
I doubt you need criticism more often than I do...And my Wife sees to it that I get my share! :-) I can say that now, cause she's not here.

Sent you a PM in reply. Let me know if that works. See ya
 
I have used the finish you mentioned before, and altough it does work, and nice and clear, there are issues with it. It can breakdown over time also. I had a cue that I did, and altough it took a while to finish, it looked almost just like auto clear, but after about a 8 months to a year, I began to see tiny bubbles under the surface appearing in one area that were not there before. Could have been something i did in prep, but would have thought it would have shown up sooner. I believe there are better waterborns out there that may be more suited, but some are kind of expensive, and I have not tried them yet. Bonding can be an issue also. (Thanks for that tip Mike, did not know about the bonding agent you mentioned)

The aluminum does put out a black color that is a pain in the rear and can stain pretty badly. as far as polishing though, I have a roll of micro-mesh just for aluminum, and it works very well before buffing, altough I have not used aluminum in the joints either, but use it for other stuff. I aggree if using aluminum in a joint, that taking care of it first, when possible, would be a better idea then after installation.

There are several type finishes that could be used without the spray equipment, but how well they bond,dry, buff, and polish are the keys. Also durability 7 clarity are concerns.

Hand rubbed type finishes can be used sometimes, they are quick & fairly easy to do, but don't look the same as a thick clear, so depends on the woods and design of the cue as to how good they look. Some designs built mostly from wood parts I actually like better with that type finish, but only certain ones. I did a cocc-birdseye cue like that, and was pleased with the look & feel on that paticular cue, but not for My other designs. since the coco is oily anyway, it made things easier, and brought out a deeper color. The cue was kind of a sneakie pete design anyway, but had floating points as oppossed to a fullsplice, so it was a decent donor for that type finish.

just to add that Sealing the cue well before finishing, can save alot of hassle with some types of finish. I've found that out the hard way. Not all finishes make a good sealer.

I have been experiementing with different finishes for a while trying to find something quick, and good, that I don't have to use My spray gun with, but they have all had there own issues to work around. I'm trying something different right now with alittle trick i picked up added in the mix, but don't know how it's going to come out yet, because it's not really quick, and still in the proccess. If it comes out decent I'll pass it on.

I use to paint custom homes, and there were some waterborns that sher.williams had out that seemed pretty good, but have not tried any on cues. might be worth checking into. I know i preferred their other paints over many others brands, so who knows what kind of waterborns they have out now.
There is also a place online that's supposed to have good waterborns, I have heard it mentioned that they work well on cues, but have not tried them myself.

Good luck, Greg
 
macguy said:
How thin a SS sleeve are you talking about? If you use a very thin sleeve how do you install the decorative collors behind it? They would have to be thin as well. I could see mounting the SS sleeve on a phenolic sleeve and boaring it out but it would have to be done very carefully.

The way to install a thin stainless collar is to build the cue and rings for a phenolic ferrule. Once all done, turn down the phonelic "joint" to the I.D. specs for the collar. Glue in place.
Dick
 
rhncue said:
The way to install a thin stainless collar is to build the cue and rings for a phenolic ferrule. Once all done, turn down the phonelic "joint" to the I.D. specs for the collar. Glue in place.
Dick



Here is something simular to what you may be talking about that I was playing around with, only I did it for different reasons. The big part of phenolic could be made longer and turned to fit steel sleeves. This is one piece, but would actually be seperated before installing to make a joint set and shaft set. the rings could be put on before, then installed on the cue, and then turn the diameter to fit the steel sleeve if needed. it could be done several ways. the pictures are'nt very good, but maybe good enough to get the idea.

Greg
 

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Hi Bill the Cat...try this.

Hi Bill:

I'm glad you are having good luck with the Minwax Ploycrylic. I tried it early on and didn't have much luck, also it yellows over time. I'm about where you are being new to cue making and I do it as a hobby. I build one cue at a time and don't want to mess with spraying and toxic stuff. I tried a number of finishes and found one that works well. I use a finishing epoxy base coat that gets sanded down and then thin super glue (20-30 coats with wet sanding after each 10 or so) wetsand to 2000 grit, buff and polish. The finish is really good, hard and like a mirror. I got the technique right out of Chris Hightower's book but I use a 20 min. cure finishing epoxy under the super glue instead of 5-min epoxy. I've also found some medium thickness CA that is still pretty thin but a little thicker than the really watery stuff and I'm going to experiment with that. I like experimenting with stuff because it's a good way to see for yourself what works and what doesn't. There's a lot of information out there and there's more than one way to do anything. I think that most of the really good cuemakers are/were into trial and error experimentation and that's how they perfected their methods and learned things that others don't know. The super glue finish is a little time consuming and it takes some practice but the results are very nice, when you first buff and polish this stuff out you will be amazed as it shines up, it looks like glass. I haven't experimented with any metal joint collars yet but I would imagine that it would be best to polish them and leave them unfinished. I want to try it, I think the hard part will be to get the finish to the same level as the joint collar with a nice clean line and no lip; it seems challenging.
 
Thanks Zagiflyer

Zagiflyer said:
Hi Bill:

I'm glad you are having good luck with the Minwax Ploycrylic. I tried it early on and didn't have much luck, also it yellows over time. I'm about where you are being new to cue making and I do it as a hobby. I build one cue at a time and don't want to mess with spraying and toxic stuff. I tried a number of finishes and found one that works well. I use a finishing epoxy base coat that gets sanded down and then thin super glue (20-30 coats with wet sanding after each 10 or so) wetsand to 2000 grit, buff and polish. The finish is really good, hard and like a mirror. I got the technique right out of Chris Hightower's book but I use a 20 min. cure finishing epoxy under the super glue instead of 5-min epoxy. I've also found some medium thickness CA that is still pretty thin but a little thicker than the really watery stuff and I'm going to experiment with that. I like experimenting with stuff because it's a good way to see for yourself what works and what doesn't. There's a lot of information out there and there's more than one way to do anything. I think that most of the really good cuemakers are/were into trial and error experimentation and that's how they perfected their methods and learned things that others don't know. The super glue finish is a little time consuming and it takes some practice but the results are very nice, when you first buff and polish this stuff out you will be amazed as it shines up, it looks like glass. I haven't experimented with any metal joint collars yet but I would imagine that it would be best to polish them and leave them unfinished. I want to try it, I think the hard part will be to get the finish to the same level as the joint collar with a nice clean line and no lip; it seems challenging.

I did try Chris's super glue method. Never had your luck with it and I hated the fumes. Don't know if they're really harmfull like some of the clear coat's, but it's pretty nasty!

I'll have to wait to see about the yellowing problem with the Polycrylic. Depending on the type of wood your using I don't see a "slight" yellowing as a problem. In fact, in some cases, I think it would actually enhance the beauty of some woods. How long before you noticed the yellowing?

I too have switched to plastic joint collars for now. I'm also curious how to match the finish to a metal joint collar that is not finished. Would you undercut the wood slightly at the joint collar? Let me know how you make out if/when you try it.

Thanks again!
 
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