Follow-through vs. Pendulum

Andrew Manning

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
So I've noticed (mostly while playing with my stroke to try to get more draw) that I don't follow through very far, perhaps 4 inches or so. I took a few strokes to figure out why, and found out it's because my lower arm will only bend about four inches past the "bottom" of a pendulum swing when I'm in my stance.

I have a fairly standard stance, with my chin 3 inches or so above the cue. Because I like a low vantage point to shoot from, elbow sticks up well higher than my shoulder in order for my grip hand to be at the right height. The fact that my elbow is raised means that when my lower arm is perpendicular to the floor (the bottom of the pendulum swing), my elbow is bent quite a bit more sharply than 90 degrees.

Now my dilemma is that since my elbow is already bent so much at the time of contact, my lower arm has very little room to follow through before my elbow is bent as far as it goes. The only way I can produce a smooth follow-through of more than four inches or so is to move my elbow as I stroke, which I've been told is not a good thing to do.

So my question is do I need to change my mechanics so that I can get more follow-through, or am I better off sticknig with what I've got? I know whatever happens after contact doesn't affect the shot, but I also know that what's going to happen after contact affects what happens before contact, which does affect the shot. I'm interested to hear especially from the instructors on this forum, since they should be the most practiced at working on other people's mechanics.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
So I've noticed (mostly while playing with my stroke to try to get more draw) that I don't follow through very far, perhaps 4 inches or so. I took a few strokes to figure out why, and found out it's because my lower arm will only bend about four inches past the "bottom" of a pendulum swing when I'm in my stance.

I have a fairly standard stance, with my chin 3 inches or so above the cue. Because I like a low vantage point to shoot from, elbow sticks up well higher than my shoulder in order for my grip hand to be at the right height. The fact that my elbow is raised means that when my lower arm is perpendicular to the floor (the bottom of the pendulum swing), my elbow is bent quite a bit more sharply than 90 degrees.

Now my dilemma is that since my elbow is already bent so much at the time of contact, my lower arm has very little room to follow through before my elbow is bent as far as it goes. The only way I can produce a smooth follow-through of more than four inches or so is to move my elbow as I stroke, which I've been told is not a good thing to do.

So my question is do I need to change my mechanics so that I can get more follow-through, or am I better off sticknig with what I've got? I know whatever happens after contact doesn't affect the shot, but I also know that what's going to happen after contact affects what happens before contact, which does affect the shot. I'm interested to hear especially from the instructors on this forum, since they should be the most practiced at working on other people's mechanics.

-Andrew
Click to expand...


You failed to mention 3 things that are needed for consideration of your
problem. How tall are you? Where on the cue is your grip hand? And
exactly how you are gripping the cue with your grip hand? When you grip
it - is it with a full hand? Is Your wrist straight on the back side where
your arm flows into the back of your hand when you stroke? Are you able
to maintain a straight wrist at the end of your stroke? Is the last 2 fingers
on your grip hand not gripping the cue, so the cue can come up underneath
your hand at the end of your stroke so you can maintain a straight wrist and complete follow through? You can talk this thing to death on the net, but a
good instructor could point out what you are doing wrong in about 2 minutes
from watching you shoot.
 
Snapshot9 said:
You failed to mention 3 things that are needed for consideration of your
problem. How tall are you? Where on the cue is your grip hand? And
exactly how you are gripping the cue with your grip hand? When you grip
it - is it with a full hand? Is Your wrist straight on the back side where
your arm flows into the back of your hand when you stroke? Are you able
to maintain a straight wrist at the end of your stroke? Is the last 2 fingers
on your grip hand not gripping the cue, so the cue can come up underneath
your hand at the end of your stroke so you can maintain a straight wrist and complete follow through? You can talk this thing to death on the net, but a
good instructor could point out what you are doing wrong in about 2 minutes
from watching you shoot.
Click to expand...

And if I had a good instructor standing in front of me right now, I'd ask him. Talking it to death on the internet is my best immediately available option.

If you wanted answers to those questions, here they are:

How tall are you?
6'2''

Where on the cue is your grip hand?
At the back of the wrap, standard length cue.

And exactly how you are gripping the cue with your grip hand? When you grip it - is it with a full hand?
Yes, I have my four fingers in a cradle shape under the cue and my thumb resting along the side. I have big hands, so the cue is not pressing against my palm.

Is Your wrist straight on the back side where your arm flows into the back of your hand when you stroke?
On the back stroke, yes. My last two fingers extend a little on the back stroke to allow the angle between my hand and the cue change so that my wrist doesn't bend.

Are you able to maintain a straight wrist at the end of your stroke? Is the last 2 fingers on your grip hand not gripping the cue, so the cue can come up underneath your hand at the end of your stroke so you can maintain a straight wrist and complete follow through?
My wrist does bend at the end of my stroke. Should I try to eliminate that bend? I think I could make it stay straight if I practiced it that way. I guess that would give me about an inch more follow-through.

-Andrew
 
Well there are two schools of thought here:

1. Don't worry about following through more than 4" and end the stroke with the tip of the cue pointing down into the slate.

2. Follow through further than 4" for extreme draw shots by dropping your elbow and the cue tip will follow through much further and will remain straight.

My opinion is that for 98% of the shots #1 works just fine. However, for those shots where you need maximum action on the cb, #2 provides some real benefit. Also, just something to keep in mind, watch the pros and you will find that damn near all of them drop their elbows for maximum draw. Actually, some of the pros drop their elbows even on medium draw shots.
 
I find that having room to stroke is important....it loosens you up and can get you into a rhythm. One suggestion that worked for me to increase your room to stroke is to turn your feet more sideways to the cue rather then standing square.
 
Andrew Manning said:
So I've noticed (mostly while playing with my stroke to try to get more draw) that I don't follow through very far, perhaps 4 inches or so. I took a few strokes to figure out why, and found out it's because my lower arm will only bend about four inches past the "bottom" of a pendulum swing when I'm in my stance.

I have a fairly standard stance, with my chin 3 inches or so above the cue. Because I like a low vantage point to shoot from, elbow sticks up well higher than my shoulder in order for my grip hand to be at the right height. The fact that my elbow is raised means that when my lower arm is perpendicular to the floor (the bottom of the pendulum swing), my elbow is bent quite a bit more sharply than 90 degrees.

Now my dilemma is that since my elbow is already bent so much at the time of contact, my lower arm has very little room to follow through before my elbow is bent as far as it goes. The only way I can produce a smooth follow-through of more than four inches or so is to move my elbow as I stroke, which I've been told is not a good thing to do.

So my question is do I need to change my mechanics so that I can get more follow-through, or am I better off sticknig with what I've got? I know whatever happens after contact doesn't affect the shot, but I also know that what's going to happen after contact affects what happens before contact, which does affect the shot. I'm interested to hear especially from the instructors on this forum, since they should be the most practiced at working on other people's mechanics.

-Andrew
Click to expand...
Try raising your bridge, or dropping your back hand, or a combination of these two.

The CB onl knows where it's been hit, at what speed and weight and the direction from which it is hit. It doesn't know about your follow through.
 
Andrew Manning said:
Are you able to maintain a straight wrist at the end of your stroke? Is the last 2 fingers on your grip hand not gripping the cue, so the cue can come up underneath your hand at the end of your stroke so you can maintain a straight wrist and complete follow through?
My wrist does bend at the end of my stroke. Should I try to eliminate that bend? I think I could make it stay straight if I practiced it that way. I guess that would give me about an inch more follow-through.

-Andrew
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I'm following here. Is somebody advocating a locked wrist?

-djb
 
I wanted to actually raise the issue of wrist action, since it has been a big part of my game. I believe you do need some control, or muscle tension, in your wrist. The key is to limit the side-to-side motion (perpendicular to the stroke) and allow back and forth motion (parallel to the stroke). Also, there is NO disadvantage to completely locking your wrist as long as you maintain a loose grip, and there are many great players who do. Its a matter of personal preference.

When I started playing the game I was enamored by the filipino's style and imitated it. I had a very loose, wristy stroke but go no action on the cb. I now believe that no great players have a truly loose wrist with no muscle tone. Even Bustamante or Sambajon; their wrists are part of their stroke, but they are not dangling loosely, all of that motion is controlled. As an aside, when you see Busta aim one place on the cueball then come up and hit it in a different spot, he changes his wrist position on the final stroke, bad fundamentals but it works for him.

Nowadays, for most shots I use little wrist in my stroke. The only shots that I really let my wrist come in to play on are slow spin shots where you need to kill the cueball off a rail or carom with draw or sidespin.
 
henho said:
I wanted to actually raise the issue of wrist action, since it has been a big part of my game. I believe you do need some control, or muscle tension, in your wrist. The key is to limit the side-to-side motion (perpendicular to the stroke) and allow back and forth motion (parallel to the stroke). Also, there is NO disadvantage to completely locking your wrist as long as you maintain a loose grip, and there are many great players who do. Its a matter of personal preference.

When I started playing the game I was enamored by the filipino's style and imitated it. I had a very loose, wristy stroke but go no action on the cb. I now believe that no great players have a truly loose wrist with no muscle tone. Even Bustamante or Sambajon; their wrists are part of their stroke, but they are not dangling loosely, all of that motion is controlled. As an aside, when you see Busta aim one place on the cueball then come up and hit it in a different spot, he changes his wrist position on the final stroke, bad fundamentals but it works for him.

Nowadays, for most shots I use little wrist in my stroke. The only shots that I really let my wrist come in to play on are slow spin shots where you need to kill the cueball off a rail or carom with draw or sidespin.
Click to expand...


Hmm. Curious - why try consciously to control the wrist at all? If you concentrate on keeping the tip on its intended path throughout the stroke, won't the wrist naturally do its job? I can't imagine trying to control each individual part involved during a stroke. I'd rather let the system work as a whole (shoulder, elbow, wrist, forearm, etc), and forget about what each little part is doing. As long as the desired end result is achieved, I could care less whether I consciously control my wrist. Max Eberle wrote an excellent article about "purpose tremor" - trying to control things is often the worst thing you could do.

For the record, though, I believe the wrist HAS to be able to move during the stroke; otherwise either the cue would never stay level during the follow through, or the follow through would be almost non-existent. I think that, as long as the tip is kept on its desired path, the wrist WILL move, and it will move naturally, without conscious thought. As far as whether or not that movement is parallel or perpendicular to the stroke - I don't think it matters. Ideally, I'd think perpendicular movement should be avoided, but, as usual, an example can be provided which disproves the ideal. His name is Keith.... :D

I don't know if I'd call Bustamante's use of BHE "bad fundamentals." There are plenty who use BHE - I'm not one of them, but I think my path to learning side would have been easier if I had.

-djb
 
Andrew Manning said:
I have a fairly standard stance, with my chin 3 inches or so above the cue. Because I like a low vantage point to shoot from, elbow sticks up well higher than my shoulder in order for my grip hand to be at the right height. The fact that my elbow is raised means that when my lower arm is perpendicular to the floor (the bottom of the pendulum swing), my elbow is bent quite a bit more sharply than 90 degrees.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

I keep my chin on the cue so I am a bit lower than you. I have the same stroke problems as well. Here are the things I did to compensate the low vantage point.

Drop elbow - Nothing wrong with this if you keep the stroke smooth and straight. lots of top players do it correctly... It's not that hard to master.

Loose grip - Loose grip is very importand to my "stroke" since my mechanics are hindered by my low body position -> high elbow

Grip further back on cue - When I really need to make sure I get a good accelerated follow through, I have to grip the cue back farther than most of my shots. This really helps me control my stroke. I have to put less effort in accelerating the cue with my hand back a couple more inches. Less effort equals more control. More control equals better accuracy. More accuracy equals fatter wallet ;)
 
Doomcue, I agree that the goal is to have a nice accurate natural stroke without having to consciously control any part. However, if something is wrong in your stroke you need to concentrate on it to fix it and hopefully ingrain the correct stroke. For me, I had far too much excess movement in my wrist, and took some time to correct it which has benefited me greatly.

Also, in order to keep the cue level, the wrist has to move on the follow-through, not during the stroke earlier, although I guess that depends on a person's particular stroke as well. Whenever I see pros in person, I am always struck at how controlled everything in their stroke is, even their wrist movement; it never seems to just be loosely dangling.
 
DoomCue said:
I'm not sure I'm following here. Is somebody advocating a locked wrist?

-djb
Click to expand...

Well, at the end of my stroke, my wrist is bent backwards, meaning my lower arm is pointing toward where the cue-ball went, but my wrist is bent back so that my knuckles are still in line with the cue.

I think this means that at contact my wrist is probably starting to bend back away from the shot, meaning I'm not accelerating to contact as much as I could be. This may be decreasing the action I put on the cue ball.

Although I haven't made it to a pool table yet to try this out, I think if I try to change my ending position so that my wrist is forward (and I know my grip will have to be very loose in order to tilt my hand that way and still be holding the cue), I may be able to generate more spin.

Also I'm going to see if I can find a way to drop my elbow in a controlled manner to avoid constricting my stroke with my elbow's range of motion.

Anyone have any more opinions on why these techniques may be good or bad?

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
Well, at the end of my stroke, my wrist is bent backwards, meaning my lower arm is pointing toward where the cue-ball went, but my wrist is bent back so that my knuckles are still in line with the cue.

I think this means that at contact my wrist is probably starting to bend back away from the shot, meaning I'm not accelerating to contact as much as I could be. This may be decreasing the action I put on the cue ball.

Although I haven't made it to a pool table yet to try this out, I think if I try to change my ending position so that my wrist is forward (and I know my grip will have to be very loose in order to tilt my hand that way and still be holding the cue), I may be able to generate more spin.

Also I'm going to see if I can find a way to drop my elbow in a controlled manner to avoid constricting my stroke with my elbow's range of motion.

Anyone have any more opinions on why these techniques may be good or bad?

-Andrew
Click to expand...


Your wrist action seems to me to be completely natural, which is as it should be. I've found that altering a minor thing can cause everything else to fall into place. Simple changes can be head alignment, foot placement, grip placement, bridge length, etc. I would avoid concentrating on your wrist and focus more on a smooth follow through which comes to a natural stop (no herky jerky). If changing one of the simple things I listed above allows you to do that, then the problem's solved.

BTW, I don't know if a 4" follow through warrants deconstructing your stroke. If that's your natural follow through, it's your natural follow through - don't force it or fight it.

Finally, if more spin is what you're after, just hit the ball harder.

-djb
 
DoomCue said:
Your wrist action seems to me to be completely natural, which is as it should be. I've found that altering a minor thing can cause everything else to fall into place. Simple changes can be head alignment, foot placement, grip placement, bridge length, etc. I would avoid concentrating on your wrist and focus more on a smooth follow through which comes to a natural stop (no herky jerky). If changing one of the simple things I listed above allows you to do that, then the problem's solved.

BTW, I don't know if a 4" follow through warrants deconstructing your stroke. If that's your natural follow through, it's your natural follow through - don't force it or fight it.

Finally, if more spin is what you're after, just hit the ball harder.

-djb
Click to expand...

I'm relieved to hear someone as knowledgable as yourself tell me my stroke sounds like it's probably okay. But I'm not sure I understand your "just hit the ball harder" comment. Corey Deuel can hit an object ball 9 feet away and draw the cue ball back over 9 feet, and I'm a bigger (and I'd wager stronger) man than he is. I don't think he's hitting the ball and harder than I do when I hit the ball hard. But I can't draw from that far away.

You could argue that rarely do I need to hit a 9' shot with 9' of draw, but I want to be able to draw further with a medium stroke. Speed is often the enemy in pool, since it tends to decrease your margin of error. If I'm on a shimmed diamond table and I have a shot along the rail, and I want to draw the cueball, I find another shot, because if I hit it hard, it's very unlikely to drop (if anyone reading has played at the shark club in Merrifield, VA, they know what I mean).

So I'm sort of always looking to keep improving my mechanics to the point where generating large amounts of cue ball spin doesn't necessarily mean I have to hammer the ball. If the pros can draw from a full table-length away, I can learn to do it too, and I don't think the secret is hitting it harder.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
I'm relieved to hear someone as knowledgable as yourself tell me my stroke sounds like it's probably okay. But I'm not sure I understand your "just hit the ball harder" comment. Corey Deuel can hit an object ball 9 feet away and draw the cue ball back over 9 feet, and I'm a bigger (and I'd wager stronger) man than he is. I don't think he's hitting the ball and harder than I do when I hit the ball hard. But I can't draw from that far away.

You could argue that rarely do I need to hit a 9' shot with 9' of draw, but I want to be able to draw further with a medium stroke. Speed is often the enemy in pool, since it tends to decrease your margin of error. If I'm on a shimmed diamond table and I have a shot along the rail, and I want to draw the cueball, I find another shot, because if I hit it hard, it's very unlikely to drop (if anyone reading has played at the shark club in Merrifield, VA, they know what I mean).

So I'm sort of always looking to keep improving my mechanics to the point where generating large amounts of cue ball spin doesn't necessarily mean I have to hammer the ball. If the pros can draw from a full table-length away, I can learn to do it too, and I don't think the secret is hitting it harder.

-Andrew
Click to expand...


I'm sure you'll find plenty of people on here to disagree with your "knowledgeable" characterization of me....

Generating spin depends upon a few factors, like tip offset (how far from center the cue strikes the CB), velocity, elasticity, friction, etc. Change any of those things and you can change spin. All things being equal, if you want more spin, just hit the ball harder. Another option would be to change the tip offset, since it's one of the parameters you can control. Only trial and error will tell you what tip offset is right for you.

-djb
 
Andrew-

I'm headed to Fast Eddie's tomorrow, so if you're going we can work on this. My power stroke can use some work too...David seems to have raised some good points. I'd advise developing a closed bridge too, esp. for draw shots.

Ben
 
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