Getting Out When It's Easy - 8-ball

Jude Rosenstock said:
I like this observation. The 4 IS a decent key-ball to the 8 but i don't agree that it's the best one. You're sorta heading toward a pocket with this so you have to make sure your speed is slow enough that you can never scratch. Overcut this a little and you may still make the ball and head right toward that pocket.
Click to expand...

Ah, but the speed to get on the 3 requires more control than does simply going from the 4 to the 8. The speed coming off the 4 has an error factor of the entire length of the table. To get on the 3 reduces the position zone off the 4 to a much smaller area, thus more control is needed, thus the error rate increases. See what I mean?

As soon as the cueball hits the 4, it is in position to make the 8 (unless you put draw on the 4) and it only gets better as it travels up table. If you save the 3 for last and you're off on position from the 5 to 4, you'll have to check up your cueball roll to stay down table enough to be able to get on the 3 then the 8. With the 4 as the last ball, this can't happen.

Sense?

Jeff Livingston
 
softshot said:
look man I am sorry you find me rude thats was never my intention but I can understand it up to a point when communicating in text I come across as very direct. and some folks may find that rude.. I don't... I prefer to get right to the point..

when you sink the two center balls you HAVE sold out.. the back up plan is gone.. you are now FORCED to run out ... if you don't ... you lose.. thats a sell out if you miss you lose ( unless my definition of a sell out is different than yours) once those two middle balls are gone and you miss.. you lose

in 8 ball (to my apparently limited knowledge) every ball you sink without running out is like sacrificing a pawn in chess its one less piece to move or to hide behind.

your decision is to remove all the defense you have with your first two shots. that's foreign to me it goes against everything I have learned about the game.. it's all risk and no reward.

if you don't like my direct statements I am truely sorry this is how I write and thats that.

don't hold it against me I really do come here to learn about pool.
Click to expand...

Actually, you make a valid point that I think some of us might be missing here. The fact is, varying skill levels are going to dictate strategy and 8-ball strategy is probably influenced by skill moreso than any other game. That is to say, a low rank player may not play to run out while a high rank player will.

By leaving the mid-table balls for last, I believe you will make it more difficult to run out however, you will leave blockers in case you don't. Most run-out level players are not going to leave a back-up plan. They anticipate making every shot and look for a pattern that will keep things simple. However, not every player that picks up a cue (or that posts on azb) can confidently say this layout is a gimme.

I still firmly believe no matter what your skill level, starting with the 6/7 is correct. The location of the 8-ball leaves a lot of defensive options in case you lose the cueball and the value of removing the mid-table balls makes it worth the risk in case you miss. Mid table balls are simply difficult to position for. Your speed has to be very precise and by leaving them last, you increase the difficulty of your pattern.
 
chefjeff said:
Ah, but the speed to get on the 3 requires more control than does simply going from the 4 to the 8. The speed coming off the 4 has an error factor of the entire length of the table. To get on the 3 reduces the position zone off the 4 to a much smaller area, thus more control is needed, thus the error rate increases. See what I mean?
Click to expand...
I think this is a valid concept, Jeff. I think it's easier to see the 4-ball as a viable last ball on a bar table, but it certainly isn't a bad play on a big table as well.

I also think that if you look at my concept of taking out the 2-ball earlier (and not leaving two balls to one pocket as the last balls), then having the 3-ball last coming from the 4-ball makes a bit more sense than having to get to the 3/2 pair from the 4-ball.

Fred
 
chefjeff said:
Ah, but the speed to get on the 3 requires more control than does simply going from the 4 to the 8. The speed coming off the 4 has an error factor of the entire length of the table. To get on the 3 reduces the position zone off the 4 to a much smaller area, thus more control is needed, thus the error rate increases. See what I mean?

As soon as the cueball hits the 4, it is in position to make the 8 (unless you put draw on the 4) and it only gets better as it travels up table. If you save the 3 for last and you're off on position from the 5 to 4, you'll have to check up your cueball roll to stay down table enough to be able to get on the 3 then the 8. With the 4 as the last ball, this can't happen.

Sense?

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...


The way I see it, by leaving the 2/3 last, I can think of several ways to get from one ball to the other. There's actually a HUGE margin of error because I can play either ball first depending on the angle. I mean, I like the concept of the 4 as a key-ball but I wouldn't deliberately play to use the 4 as a key-ball.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
The way I see it, by leaving the 2/3 last, I can think of several ways to get from one ball to the other. .
Click to expand...
Oddly enough, every time I see a pair like this, I note how many more bad angles there are compared to if there was only one ball last.

Fred
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Actually, you make a valid point that I think some of us might be missing here. The fact is, varying skill levels are going to dictate strategy and 8-ball strategy is probably influenced by skill moreso than any other game. That is to say, a low rank player may not play to run out while a high rank player will.

By leaving the mid-table balls for last, I believe you will make it more difficult to run out however, you will leave blockers in case you don't. Most run-out level players are not going to leave a back-up plan. They anticipate making every shot and look for a pattern that will keep things simple. However, not every player that picks up a cue (or that posts on azb) can confidently say this layout is a gimme.

I still firmly believe no matter what your skill level, starting with the 6/7 is correct. The location of the 8-ball leaves a lot of defensive options in case you lose the cueball and the value of removing the mid-table balls makes it worth the risk in case you miss. Mid table balls are simply difficult to position for. Your speed has to be very precise and by leaving them last, you increase the difficulty of your pattern.
Click to expand...

Jude, what you are forgetting is that anyone capable of executing a two-way shot should be able to runout with a layout like this. What you are describing is someone who plays so bad they might miss the 4 or the 5 and get lucky by leaving them behind the 7 & 6. softshot may fall into this categoroy though. So he may have been on to something. softshot is probably a strong 2 in his local APA league and that might be the right way to play it after all.

My apologies, softshot.
 
Cornerman said:
I think this is a valid concept, Jeff. I think it's easier to see the 4-ball as a viable last ball on a bar table, but it certainly isn't a bad play on a big table as well.

I also think that if you look at my concept of taking out the 2-ball earlier (and not leaving two balls to one pocket as the last balls), then having the 3-ball last coming from the 4-ball makes a bit more sense than having to get to the 3/2 pair from the 4-ball.

Fred
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's why I said in my first post that the 2 and 3 are the biggest problem. When I set this up and tried it, I realized that the 2 and 3 could cause the most problems IF I was off a tiny bit getting to those. That's why I chose those two balls to attack first with ball in hand.

I have little problem with saving the 3 for last...in fact, that's seems the most rational for most players. I posted my ideas about using the 4 for the key ball to raise awareness of the (mostly unknown) advantage of using a ball on the end rail for a forgiving key ball.

I've seen a lot of players blow their 8 ball runouts by thinking they need exact, straight-in position on the 8. I learned this concept playing 9 ball, btw. :cool: By saving the 4 for the key ball, this problem is eliminated completely.

Good thread...it looks so simple, but wow, nice input from all the good players....THANKS ALL

Jeff Livingston
 
Cornerman said:
In this situation, if you miss from here, you deserve to lose. Fred
Click to expand...


I had to read through all this to make sure I found this comment...It is pretty much spot on...


The "back up plan" concept is a good one apply in specific situations...but in this particular rack...if you are a run out player...you are going to get out...or lose.....(If I were the one that left BIH with none of my balls on the table...I pretty much expect to lose here)

An observation regarding the suggesting that it may be a good idea for a beginner to play the "back up plan" route......

In theory that may be a good idea...but the beginners or "bangers" (if you will) that may miss on this out...also have pretty much no idea where the CB is going anyway...and mis "badly"...So much so that the CB could end up in a totally different area than the intended "plan"

It may just be me....but I usually see some of the most akward leaves from a banger missing than I do from a good player missing...

Seems like when a banger misses...the CB goes 2 or three rails and locks up behind a ball an in the process completly changes the layout of the table...

Two way shots does play a role in shot selection....Sometimes it could be the difference between attempting a shot or playing safe......
 
Jude:
The way I see it, by leaving the 2/3 last, I can think of several ways to get from one ball to the other. .

Fred:
Oddly enough, every time I see a pair like this, I note how many more bad angles there are compared to if there was only one ball last.
Click to expand...

My instincts (not to be confused with experience) are with Jude on this one. Seems to me that you'll be shooting the first ball from a longer distance, with more likelihood of getting "awkward" on the second ball. Then the question becomes do I want to be awkward on the key ball or on the 8? Having the second key ball is sort of an opportunity for a shorter-shot mulligan to get right on the 8. What am I (in all likelihood) missing?

pj <- you say schlemiel; I say schlimazel...
chgo
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson said:
Then the question becomes do I want to be awkward on the key ball or on the 8? Having the second key ball is sort of an opportunity for a shorter-shot mulligan to get right on the 8. What am I (in all likelihood) missing?

pj <- you say schlemiel; I say schlimazel...
chgo
Click to expand...

Let's play it backwards. If the 2-ball was the 8-ball, what would your last ball be? Surely not the 3-ball if the 2-ball was going into the same pocket. If the 3-ball was the 8-ball, what would be your last ball? Possibly the 2-ball, but the 4-ball seems to be the obvious answer.

So, if you got dead straight in on the 3-ball, getting the 2-ball sux. But, if there was no 2-ball, getting dead straight on the 3-ball is perfect. So, another way I look at it is to simply look at every angle from dead straight to severe, using the 2-ball or the 3-ball and see where it's good and where it's not so good. Normally, in this situation, there are several angles you don't want on the 3-ball or the 2-ball if both balls are on the table. And dead straight onthe 3-ball is one of them. And it's a big possibilty considering how the 4-ball lays.

That's how I'm looking at it. Plus, I'm looking at it from every other time I've either screwed up or seen someone screw up the "last two ball in the same corner pocket" situation.

Fred
 
[snip Fred's good analysis]

As I look at this more, it seems to me the deciding factor is the distance between 1st and 2nd OBs. If the 2nd OB is too close you can get awkward on it more easily than if the 2nd OB is farther away (assuming the 2nd OB is already more or less in line with its intended pocket from the position of the 1st OB).

So once again I guess I'm changing to your way of thinking about this runout. Does learning stuff always hurt like this?

pj <- schlemiel after all
chgo
 
Neil said:
Without looking at any other posts- If the table had 'normal' pockets, I would shoot the 2 in the upper side and just follow to the rail and out a little.
Click to expand...
I absolutley love this out, Neil. Really. And I dare say that if the tables were tighter, I'd want that 2-ball in the upper side even moreso. I can feel this out, especially if I was really tense and the situation was getting hot, and I was starting to lose my stroke. Playing the 2 in the upper side and following to the rail and out for the 6-ball would all me to hit the ball without penalty, and get my heart beat back in check.

That's another thing about pattern selection. The entire situation changes if you're feeling very cold or very hot.

Fred
 
I gotta say it.

At first glance and after 10th glance I start on the five.That was before reading all the other options and noticing the good sense applied.

But I still start on the five.

I still like (love) my chances of getting out.No reason why I can't.The balls in the middle are my friends damit....there to help with the smallest of shape issues although I would'nt expect any....but then again,I never do but I seem to find em lol

Seriously...for me its the five,

I get the why for 6/7 0r 7/6 first...but I'm lost on the why not the five.
 
Neil said:
BRKNRUN: Are you maybe in the wrong thread????:confused:

Yep, you were! :D
Click to expand...


Yes I was.....I am still learning to chew gum and walk at the same time...

In response to your above observation on the 2 first...

I actually posted that I would shoot the 3 first which is very similar to shooting the 2.

The reason I would shoot the 3 over the 2 is...

The 2-ball IMO has a bigger pocket to shoot into.

I have BIH and can place the CB exacly where I want for the first shot to get on the 6 correctly...If I play the 2 with BIH I have "less" options on how to get on the 6 (since the 3 kind of takes the 3 out of play)

Once I am on the 6 Everything else is almost a stop shot.

I am probably going to get out no matter what ball you tell me I have to shoot first, but for me..I am getting the 3 ball off the table first shot.

BTW....I also shoot left handed which gives me an option (on the 3 ball) that may not be quite as friendly (stance wise) for a right handed player.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top