Getting very frustrated..cant improve

Harvywallbanger said:
Why is that? This is the first thing a beginner needs to focus on. Many instructers will tell him the same thing.;)
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Could you perhaps give the name of an instructor or two who would suggest a student practice this way? Most of the instructors I know do not recomment using rings or bottles for stroke development.
Steve
 
Blackjack said:
Respectfullly, I disagree with this statement. Basically what you're saying is that it makes no difference whether or not I know how to use the bow and arrow as long as I know where the target is. The point of contact is useless unless you can make contact with it. If there are flaws in any of the fundamentals it will prevent them from making contact with this target.

To ramw5p -
An instructor is not the answer as much as the dedication of the player to persevere through the frustration. Instrctors are there to observe, evaluate and give recommendations. It is up to the student to perfect what is taught or recommended.

Frustration is a great place to be. It will lead you into the next phase of character building. Too many times character building is lost in our rush for comfort. When you hit "The Growling Point" (as I call it) you will do one of 3 things:

Go forwards
Go backwards
Remain complacent

Champions move forward despite whatever odds may be against them in their efforts to progress. That is why you should always try; if trying doesn't work try harder; & NEVER - EVER give up.

Quitting is a habit. Success, accomplishment and perseverance are also habits. In the end it all depends how bad you want to succeed in comparison to how bad you don't want to fail.

If the scales have success on one end and failure on the other - you need to weigh down the success tray with CONFIDENCE. The only thing that will be placed on the failure scale is BS. When you realize that you have the power to remove that BS from the scale - and - that you also have the power to add confidence to the success side of the scale, then you will have overcome this phase of development.

BTW... don't ever listen to anybody that tells you that can't do it - YOU CAN!
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This is perfect advice.

Harveywallbanger, I think you've missed an important point. We're advising a beginner. It's my firm belief that there is such a thing as a list of basic fundamentals that need to be addressed, particularly with a beginner that has the desire to learn. The best way to learn any skill is to start off by learning the fundamentals.

In Jerry Briesath's DVD "How to Play Pool Right" he says when he has a beginner he teaches fundamentals. When he has an intermediate player he teaches advanced shots and technique. When he has a professional player needing help, he teaches Fundamentals. The inference is that the main thing that holds us back including the professionals is flaws in fundamentals.

Now to your point that the end justifies the means, certainly we know of all kinds of professionals in all sports that use unorthodox methods and achieve greatness, which I think is part of your point. These pros have found their way, in their own way and succeeded. But think of how much additional time and effort it took to overcome their fundamental flaws. Yes it can be done but this guy wants and deserves a solid framework based on proven solid fundamentals from which to develop his style. Without this framework he will develop habits that will be extremely hard to break and will be the foundation for that wall that most of us hit at some point.

This kid is a coaches dream. Someone with little time to develop bad habits and wants to learn. I'm still a kid at heart and want to learn as well. I took a lesson a few months ago from a highly qualified pool player.
When I interviewed him before making the appointment I told him "Look you know I don't play pool so all I want you to do is teach me Stance Bridge and Stroke. He said that's great because that's all I'm going to give you no matter what you wanted in lesson 1. Since that lesson my game has fallen off to such a low that's it's difficult to get to the table to play but I force myself and know what I'm working on, and taught is absolutely the way it should be. I just have to work through it. Never say "That doesn't work for me till you've tried it at least a 1000 times." I've heard countless times " That doesn't work for me" Well I guess I'd accept that if the advice simply came from a decent player in some room. But if the advice comes from a professional who has spent their life studying the game I would rethink my position.
 
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pooltchr said:
Could you perhaps give the name of an instructor or two who would suggest a student practice this way? Most of the instructors I know do not recomment using rings or bottles for stroke development.
Steve
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I never said this would make him a world champion for god sakes. The dude couldn't get the cue ball to come straight off the rail. I suggested it might be because his stroke is not straight. If you can stroke through a ring with your eyes closed its straight. YES it does help and YES I have heard it from many. But I can't remember where exactly.
Can someone help me out on this please and give sherlock holmes here a reference?:rolleyes:
 
Harvywallbanger said:
If you can stroke through a ring with your eyes closed its straight. YES it does help and YES I have heard it from many. But I can't remember where exactly.
Can someone help me out on this please and give sherlock holmes here a reference?:rolleyes:
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stroking through a ring doesn't mean anything unless you believe what you hear from people
 
Egg McDogit said:
stroking through a ring doesn't mean anything unless you believe what you hear from people
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How can you say that???? If he is having problems hitting the cueball straight off the rail its probably because he's veering his cue at the end of his stroke and putting unnessisary english on the cueball.

TO the ORIGINAL poster,
Dude if you are hitting the cueball in the middle of the diamond on the end rail and its coming back to the right or left its because you are NOT hitting the cueball in the center. The easiest way to assure you are going to be hitting the cueball in the center is to have a STRAIGHT stroke. If your not sure how straight your stroke is put a ring on the table barely bigger than your ferrule. Stroke throught it untill you see your ferrule go through it. If you can't do this while stroking back and forth you have a problem and need to correct it. You can A. Keep practicing your stroke or B. go see an instructer.
 
OK, if the ring has about about 1/2 mm clearence for the tip and ferule to pass and you can do that, then you have a straight stroke. I meant to give you that on my first post. The issue I have is a beginner will not be able to get there without reading a few good books and /or taking lessons and of course a whole lot of practice. I haven't measured my accuracy lately but when I took my last lesson 1mm was the best I did. That's not good enough and I've been playing for a long time thinking, but not testing, that I was good at that. What I found out is there were about 4 reasons why I didn't hit Exactly the spot. My coach showed my why and how not just tell me to put a coke bottle on the table and run my cue tip through it.

Again your drill is a good one but IMO only when you know what you're doing and only as a check to diagnose a problem. But, it's tough to diagnose a problem if you don't know how it's supposed to work. The bottom line is that this drill will tell him his stroke needs improvement but it won't tell him why or what to work on.
 
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experience

PoolSharkAllen said:
The problem for most people is that they can't tell when they're not doing something correctly. An instructor can make sure the student has the correct fundamentals (stance, stroke and grip), which should be the starting point for every new student of the game. :)
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try playin some people slightly better then you and learn and watch what they are doin and if you can try learning from an instructor and from other people.
 
3kushn said:
OK, if the ring has about about 1/2 mm clearence for the tip and ferule to pass and you can do that, then you have a straight stroke. I meant to give you that on my first post. The issue I have is a beginner will not be able to get there without reading a few good books and /or taking lessons and of course a whole lot of practice. I haven't measured my accuracy lately but when I took my last lesson 1mm was the best I did. That's not good enough and I've been playing for a long time thinking, but not testing, that I was good at that. What I found out is there were about 4 reasons why I didn't hit Exactly the spot. My coach showed my why and how not just tell me to put a coke bottle on the table and run my cue tip through it.

Again your drill is a good one but IMO only when you know what you're doing and only as a check to diagnose a problem. But, it's tough to diagnose a problem if you don't know how it's supposed to work. The bottom line is that this drill will tell him his stroke needs improvement but it won't tell him why or what to work on.
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Correct 100%! His stroke might not be straight because of something fundamental such as grip, stance, or whatever. Maybe I shouldn't of told him to just stroke through the ring alone. Your right about that. But if he figures out why his stroke isn't straight going back to the ring would be a good idea to fine tune his stroke.

When I was younger I set it up and would do it REALLY fast while looking ahead and not focusing on the ring. This helped me with my break.
I would also suggest doing this with your normal stroke while looking ahead and not at the ring. It prepares a guy for when he makes the transition to looking at the object ball last when he pulls the trigger. Alot of beginners aim at the cueball last and when they are told to look at the object ball last they are lost...unless you are good at the ring.:p
 
lessons are good but if your slow rolling up the table and its not comming back strait your stroke could be off or the table not level
 
Harvywallbanger said:
Correct 100%! His stroke might not be straight because of something fundamental such as grip, stance, or whatever. Maybe I shouldn't of told him to just stroke through the ring alone. Your right about that. But if he figures out why his stroke isn't straight going back to the ring would be a good idea to fine tune his stroke.

When I was younger I set it up and would do it REALLY fast while looking ahead and not focusing on the ring. This helped me with my break.
I would also suggest doing this with your normal stroke while looking ahead and not at the ring. It prepares a guy for when he makes the transition to looking at the object ball last when he pulls the trigger. Alot of beginners aim at the cueball last and when they are told to look at the object ball last they are lost...unless you are good at the ring.:p
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It's been my experience that when I try to figure out what's wrong in my mechanics, all on my own, my solution brings me outside the rules of sound fundamentals. After I get this new home grown idea internalized then up comes a new problem I never had before. This is why I highly recommend an experienced instructor if at all possible.

I read on many threads to just watch the good players and try to do what they do. Unless they're tremendous players I wouldn't do that either and even then, watch out. The very best 9 ball player I ever personaly knew who was once ranked in the world in the early 70's had the most unusual stroke I'd ever seen before or since. Some of what he did was to hold the butt with the very tips of his fingers and thumb. As he was stroking the cue with a very limber wrist he would kinda quickly grasp the butt. The butt of the cue sort of slapped the palm of his hand. His hand would almost be vibrating back there before stroking the ball. It worked well for him and yes as you mentioned when the tip hit the cue it was perfect but he had to have gone through hell getting that stroke perfected.
 
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Just a quick Q,

When looking at the cueball or OB last, does it really matter?

You would already be in line with the shot, if you arent, you should get back up and down again surely..

I tend to look at the CB last when I need to fine tune the position, and the OB last maybe on longer toucher shots.
 
laser2507 said:
Just a quick Q,

When looking at the cueball or OB last, does it really matter?

You would already be in line with the shot, if you arent, you should get back up and down again surely..

I tend to look at the CB last when I need to fine tune the position, and the OB last maybe on longer toucher shots.
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It's wrong. Always look at the object ball last.
Exceptions: when you break the rack and when you are hitting over a ball.
You can't feel the shot if you are looking at cue ball last, it's like you are shooting with your eyes closed.
You don't have a straight shot if you prefer to look at the cue ball when you shoot.
 
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