Glue relief for the Joint Pin Installation

P

Pancerny

Mike Pancerny
Silver Member
I know of about three methods for doing glue relief for the joint pin. One involoves basically grinding slots into the pin so that glue can run out the slots when the pin is being screwed in (some pins can even be purchased this way). One involves using a hollow pin so that the glue can run out the center of the pin instead of slots and the the third is to basically drill the hole deeper than it needs to be so that the glue has a place to go and it doesn't just split the forearm with hydraulic pressure. Anyone know of any other methods for doing glue relief for joint pin installation??
Mike
 
Run your tap in and out a few times to make a losser pin fit. Use thin West system glue. Fill the hole up and very, very slowly run the pin in. The glue will come out without busting the side of the cue out if you run it in slowly enough. I do this on my carom cues with 1/2-13 nylon thread pin. It would not work with radial or other really tight type of pins. For other joints I use your last method mentioned above.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
 
merylane said:
why the &%*#$%(%@%& do you need glue reliefe any way?
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. You have 2+ inches of thread to hold the little booger in there. All you need to worry about is it unscrewing. It doesn't need much glue.
 
This is why I ask.....

I've been given the task of repairing yet another butt that has been broken right below the joint pin. I know many other cuemakers and cue repairman have seen this sort of thing over the years as well. Basically most cuemakers drill a hole deeper than is required and the extra glue just plops into that cavity...but there is still a hollow spot in the joint area of the cue. About 2 years ago I tried an experiment where I simply drilled a hole from the outside to the bottom of the hole, load it up with glue and screw in the pin to the proper depth, and watch the excess glue get squezed out by the air under the pin. I then put a small tapered wooden plug in from the outside to seal the hole back up. This not only fixed the problem with the void (and in my opinion weak spot) in the forearm but now there is solid material right behind the pin. Not sure why it makes such a big difference but the cues I've made since then have a MUCH more solid hit and feel than prior to these extra steps. At first I wasn't sure how people would react to the little circle that the wooden plug leaves...which is quite obviously a bit different from other cues. I don't like to use the slotted pins because I build my cues with an insert style joint and the pin goes in last. (it therefore becomes difficult to remove the glue inside the joint collar.) Not to mention that the slots don't go up the entire length of the pin and there will be a hydraulic build up with glue at some point while installing this style of pin. I don't mind the little circle but wondered why no one has ever tried this before...it just seemed like such an easy fix for a longstanding problem. People now ask me what the little circle is and I have a chance to explain it to them. I do this same thing at the 'a' joint and simply cover the hole with an inlay in the forearm side and the wrap on the handle side. No buzz in any cues since I started doing this.
Mike
www.customcuemaker.com
 
Blow Out

Pancerny said:
I've been given the task of repairing yet another butt that has been broken right below the joint pin. I know many other cuemakers and cue repairman have seen this sort of thing over the years as well. Basically most cuemakers drill a hole deeper than is required and the extra glue just plops into that cavity...but there is still a hollow spot in the joint area of the cue. About 2 years ago I tried an experiment where I simply drilled a hole from the outside to the bottom of the hole, load it up with glue and screw in the pin to the proper depth, and watch the excess glue get squezed out by the air under the pin. I then put a small tapered wooden plug in from the outside to seal the hole back up. This not only fixed the problem with the void (and in my opinion weak spot) in the forearm but now there is solid material right behind the pin. Not sure why it makes such a big difference but the cues I've made since then have a MUCH more solid hit and feel than prior to these extra steps. At first I wasn't sure how people would react to the little circle that the wooden plug leaves...which is quite obviously a bit different from other cues. I don't like to use the slotted pins because I build my cues with an insert style joint and the pin goes in last. (it therefore becomes difficult to remove the glue inside the joint collar.) Not to mention that the slots don't go up the entire length of the pin and there will be a hydraulic build up with glue at some point while installing this style of pin. I don't mind the little circle but wondered why no one has ever tried this before...it just seemed like such an easy fix for a longstanding problem. People now ask me what the little circle is and I have a chance to explain it to them. I do this same thing at the 'a' joint and simply cover the hole with an inlay in the forearm side and the wrap on the handle side. No buzz in any cues since I started doing this.
Mike
www.customcuemaker.com
Click to expand...
I've never had this problem. Try putting the glue on the screw & A LITTLE in the hole. If you put your rings on before the screw goes in, you will strengthen the joint area. I think you're just useing TOO MUCH GLUE...JER
 
Pancerny said:
I've been given the task of repairing yet another butt that has been broken right below the joint pin. I know many other cuemakers and cue repairman have seen this sort of thing over the years as well. Basically most cuemakers drill a hole deeper than is required and the extra glue just plops into that cavity...but there is still a hollow spot in the joint area of the cue. About 2 years ago I tried an experiment where I simply drilled a hole from the outside to the bottom of the hole, load it up with glue and screw in the pin to the proper depth, and watch the excess glue get squezed out by the air under the pin. I then put a small tapered wooden plug in from the outside to seal the hole back up. This not only fixed the problem with the void (and in my opinion weak spot) in the forearm but now there is solid material right behind the pin. Not sure why it makes such a big difference but the cues I've made since then have a MUCH more solid hit and feel than prior to these extra steps. At first I wasn't sure how people would react to the little circle that the wooden plug leaves...which is quite obviously a bit different from other cues. I don't like to use the slotted pins because I build my cues with an insert style joint and the pin goes in last. (it therefore becomes difficult to remove the glue inside the joint collar.) Not to mention that the slots don't go up the entire length of the pin and there will be a hydraulic build up with glue at some point while installing this style of pin. I don't mind the little circle but wondered why no one has ever tried this before...it just seemed like such an easy fix for a longstanding problem. People now ask me what the little circle is and I have a chance to explain it to them. I do this same thing at the 'a' joint and simply cover the hole with an inlay in the forearm side and the wrap on the handle side. No buzz in any cues since I started doing this.
Mike
www.customcuemaker.com
Click to expand...




I have to say I aggree about the hit. Altough most have been at It alot longer than I have, and probably know best, I still don't like the idea of the void below the pin. This was the reason for My simular post. In my opinion not having a relief affects the centering of my pin, because sometimes there is no runout until I glue it up, so that Is My problem with It, or else It would be a no brainer "No relief" less glue. My first cues hit very solid with no relief, and I like them that way, as the hit is what I prefer. I mentioned your method in the other post as another option I've heard tossed around, but personally don't want the plug in It, or that's the way I would go. I had heard of this method being used, either by you or others, not sure who all uses It. I believe this Is even one of the methods mentioned in chris's book. I do like the idea, just not the plug. The inlay Is a good idea, But not all my cues will have one there. Depending on the wood used, in some cases might be easy to blend, such as ebony, but as you know better than I, the plugs would not blend in alot of woods, therefore being visible to the naked eye. I have been lucky enough to get input from several people on their methods, and will experiment with that knowledge for myself to find which method best suits me. I will post My results after I figure which works for me for others. I have a cue now that I have battled with doing more complicated inlays in It then I should have tried in the begining. I want to make sure I have no problems with it after all the work that has gone into it thus far. The cue has been built by hand from the ground up, and saved from being destroyed several times already, the last thing I want is to have a problem in the joint after all the work that has gone in It.
Altough I prefer the solid hit from the bottomed pin, I am concerned about hearing from others that the cue could pick up a rattle later on. Has this been a problem with Your method? What's the oldest cues you used It On, and has There been any problems with any of those? I imagine that If this were to happen, It would be due to the glue hardening over time. The epoxy I use seems to be elastic enough, that It possibly would not harden enough for this to happen, but still has me concerned because I do not know that for fact.
Thanks for keeping this question going. I believe this is a bigger issue than alot might think. For someone like me trying to find their preference, It is all very usefull info.

Greg
 
I use 3 longitudinal channels for glue and air relief. Aside from being relief channels to be able to bottom out the screw, without splitting the forearm, they act as "locks" when the epoxy hardens. Comes in handy to counter the forces applied should the female counterpart get dirty and locks-up.
 
Pancerny said:
I don't mind the little circle but wondered why no one has ever tried this before...it just seemed like such an easy fix for a longstanding problem.
www.customcuemaker.com
Click to expand...
This is something many including myself have done before. One reason I don't do it still is that it is not needed to produce solid cues. The unsightly dot in the forearm is the main reason I don't do it and since it does not help much I find it undesirable to make an unsightly dot in the cue. You might want to consider making yourself a small logo you can inlay over the dot in your cues and let it be your trademark and no one will ever have a reason to nit pick a cosmetic flaw.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
 
bandido said:
I use 3 longitudinal channels for glue and air relief. Aside from being relief channels to be able to bottom out the screw, without splitting the forearm, they act as "locks" when the epoxy hardens. Comes in handy to counter the forces applied should the female counterpart get dirty and locks-up.
Click to expand...


Tap tap tap
 
cueman said:
This is something many including myself have done before. One reason I don't do it still is that it is not needed to produce solid cues. The unsightly dot in the forearm is the main reason I don't do it and since it does not help much I find it undesirable to make an unsightly dot in the cue. You might want to consider making yourself a small logo you can inlay over the dot in your cues and let it be your trademark and no one will ever have a reason to nit pick a cosmetic flaw.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
Click to expand...



That logo thing is a good idea Chris. You could inlay/etch the logo in a bunch dot inlays or other shapes while set up for It, and then just inlay them into the cue as you need them. Or I guess your inlay could be the logo if the design would cover the plug. That way you would not have to use an oversize collar to cover, or Put inlay in a area that might be outside of the design just to cover the plug. pluss as you mentioned might be a cool trademark to boot. I was fighting with the idea of a logo in the future, but the way I will be setting My fonts up, would make It a pain to have to setup everytime to engrave the cue. I will probably set it up to index off the template bed to get use of all letters and #'s anyway, but if I wanted, This way I could just engrave them all while setup, and a simple inlay to install as needed. I'll probably make a template for the logo eventually, but for now, even if I did do one, it would be something simple.
I wonder if I could get someone to mill Me a template for a logo from the 2005 cad program. I have access to it, but understand it does not make it's own G Code, and I don't have the software to transfer It, so they would need that. I have'nt played with it yet, so sure not even if It's suitable or not.

Greg
 
Cue Crazy said:
I wonder if I could get someone to mill Me a template for a logo from the 2005 cad program. I have access to it, but understand it does not make it's own G Code, and I don't have the software to transfer It, so they would need that. I have'nt played with it yet, so sure not even if It's suitable or not.

Greg
Click to expand...
You can save your file as .dxf and convert it to G-code with AceConverter. You can download AceConverter from YaegerAutomation.
 
bandido said:
You can save your file as .dxf and convert it to G-code with AceConverter. You can download AceConverter from YaegerAutomation.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I will have to check It out. Is It freeware, or do you have to purchase the down load? It sure would be nice if I could use the cad to design inlays, convert them so someone could mill me templates out for my manual setup, and then If upgrade to automated I will still have the code. I think I can handle the mechanics in time, even have alot of parts built up I could use. but the controller setup, and software I am still trying to learn more about, and then ofcoarse if i get through that which I am sure will require help, I still have to learn how to use it. then I hear ajusting feed rate and breaking bits is always fun. Needless to say It will more than likely be a while before I can play with cnc, but would be nice if I ever get there, and already have designs built up, even if only for milling templates. For now I"ll keep pinching pennies on building the basics until I have things setup well enough where I can invest in more goodies for that.

Thanks For the headsup on the software Edwin, Heard alot of wonderfull things about Your work, Hope to have one hanging in my rack someday. I will say from what I've seen they are very beautifull cues.

Greg
 
Cue Crazy said:
Thanks, I will have to check It out. Is It freeware, or do you have to purchase the down load? It sure would be nice if I could use the cad to design inlays, convert them so someone could mill me templates out for my manual setup, and then If upgrade to automated I will still have the code. I think I can handle the mechanics in time, even have alot of parts built up I could use. but the controller setup, and software I am still trying to learn more about, and then ofcoarse if i get through that which I am sure will require help, I still have to learn how to use it. then I hear ajusting feed rate and breaking bits is always fun. Needless to say It will more than likely be a while before I can play with cnc, but would be nice if I ever get there, and already have designs built up, even if only for milling templates. For now I"ll keep pinching pennies on building the basics until I have things setup well enough where I can invest in more goodies for that.

Thanks For the headsup on the software Edwin, Heard alot of wonderfull things about Your work, Hope to have one hanging in my rack someday. I will say from what I've seen they are very beautifull cues.

Greg
Click to expand...
Here's the link Greg. You can download it for FREE http://www.yeagerautomation.com/ace.htm You can change or assign a feedrate in your G-Code by adding Fvalue where value is the feedrate in inches per minute Ex.=F10 where 10 = 10 inches per minute, that is if your controller configuration unit of measurement is in inches.

Thank you for the compliment and you're welcome.
 
Thanks for the links guys.

Is the converter software something that whoever mills My Template would need, and could use the cad file alone, or can I transfer it to G before hand with the software? I am a ways from having my own cnc setup. Would starting out with a taig design mill and simple controller package be a good way to put the foot in the door, and start learning, maybe even use it just to mill my own templates with it at first? Or too weak for this.
At this time I really would just like to design, so I guess if I know the codes from cad could be used ,and not a waste of time to design in, then It works for Me fore Now.
I have stuff I could build a chasis from, but might be more trouble then It's worth for figuring out the rest on My first setup. Also might be a while before I have the space ready to make extra room for It. Also could use the stuff to build me a nice stand alone taper machine instead.


Thanks Again,
Greg
 
bandido said:
Here's the link Greg. You can download it for FREE http://www.yeagerautomation.com/ace.htm You can change or assign a feedrate in your G-Code by adding Fvalue where value is the feedrate in inches per minute Ex.=F10 where 10 = 10 inches per minute, that is if your controller configuration unit of measurement is in inches.

Thank you for the compliment and you're welcome.
Click to expand...


Edwin,
Thanks for the reply on the glue/air relief slots.
I grind a small glue relief slot into the pin with a wheel grinder for the same reason....so the pins won't back out. In fact I also do a small one inside Stainless Steel Joint collars so they will never back off...fixed a few too many of those...including a few of my own in the early days.
I guess that will never allow a joint collar or pin to be changed on any of my cues but I would rather that than have a catastrophic failure in the customers hands.
I have fixed cues where the pins have backed out too....not my own.
Mike
 
if you drill the glue relief hole on an angle it will be hidden under the joint collar , problem solved , no unsightly circle on the shaft .
 
BiG_JoN said:
But what if you install the joint collar first?

:D
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:confused: Yeah, I always put them on first, helps me to get a tight fitting pin, without as many Uh Oh's :D If the ring was black phenolic and they just have to have relief, then just drill through it I would think, easy to blend. Since this thread I have found that good coverage of glue is all that is needed, but that the more glue you put on the more room you need for it anyway. using less glue, but good coverage lets me fit the pins tighter now resulting in a truer running pin, this was something that was giving me problems in the past. I don't know how others do it, but this seems to be working for me so far. :)
 
bandido said:
You can save your file as .dxf and convert it to G-code with AceConverter. You can download AceConverter from YaegerAutomation.
Click to expand...

Sir Bandido, bit by the CNC bug already? :eek:
Heard that thing is contagious... :D

Hadj
 
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