This entire thread is another perfect example of why mens professional pocket billiards orginization(s) will never achieve the longivity, success and sponsorships it hungers for!! There will always be great events (DCC, US Open, WPC etc..) and small regional tours, but a large scale, big money, lots of fingers in the pie orginized Mens Tour.....Not going to happen....The Camel Tour was the begining of something great...then take a hard look at what happen to that Tour!
GreatWhite Closes!!!!!
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UPA crooks?
Don't know if i quite understand the response. Gremlin am I right in that you are saying that there are "crooks" in the upa? If so, who are they? And why are they crooks? It is pretty unfair for you to make such blanket statement. If in fact I'm understanding the response correctly.
If not, my apologies.... please clarify.
Don't know if i quite understand the response. Gremlin am I right in that you are saying that there are "crooks" in the upa? If so, who are they? And why are they crooks? It is pretty unfair for you to make such blanket statement. If in fact I'm understanding the response correctly.
If not, my apologies.... please clarify.
Cuteone said:
Hi Cuteone,
You must be relatively new to this board. That comment has been raised by UPA bashers since it's inception. The UPA has a contract that the member players are required to sign to earn both ranking and seeding points. The UPA does not promote tournaments directly. Charlie Williams, through Dragon Productions, has promoted some of their events. The UPA offers to "sanction" non UPA events for a fee to independent event promoters. Charlie Williams has received worse comments than "crook" here. He was also a founder and President of the UPA. Some posters refer to slavery to describe the players contract. At your convenience, go to the UPA website and check the list of Touring Pros. The greatest names in Mens Professional Billiards are there. According to some posters, they are idiots for signing the contract.
The UPA is not "the greatest thing since sliced bread". They screw up alot. It is the only game in town if you're a professional (level) player. Mark Griffins recent purchase of the BCA leagues and tournaments gave rise to speculation that the Pro Tour might be next. In direct conversation, he emphactically said no. Believe me, my head in not up my ass. Yes, I am a Touring Pro member of the UPA. Unfortunately, not one of the greatest. Yet.
I forgot to mention that, do to a childish spat on several peoples parts at the first UPA event, Earl Strickland is not a UPA member. That really twists some posters and me! Earl does not seem to care.
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your a member?
in speaking at great length with frank alvarez with the upa my eyes were opened quite a bit about this whole upa thing. over the past couple days i have really asked him a lot of questions. I even asked him what the upa's mistakes were as well as why they happened. i know i bugged him to death, but he was very accomadating. he actually sent me a player's contract, and honestly I don't see anything on there that is out of line at all. it's simply a non-exclusive media rights contract. it has basic membership mumbo jumbo. the only other factor was the part that said the player will play in upa event over other events unless a waiver is granted. frank pointed out to me that the upa has an open waiver policy so that players could play anywhere. he also pointed out that the this clause was for the protection of the promoter that sactioned with them. which makes complete sense.
as far as this whole williams thing i guess charlie has his own events that he has independatly. charlie is treated no differently than any other promoter and is given the exact same contract to sign as anyone else. mr. alvarez pointed out to me that anyone can promote an event and the upa would work with them if they meet basic requirements. so I guess I don't understand the criticism?
again, the upa has not charged a "sactioning" fee for more than two years now. frank confirmed this.
another thing i don't understand is the fact frank pointed out that this was a player's organization. players ultimately have say in what's in the promoters contract as well as what they would like. i guess charlie and rodney morris are looking to do a upa event next year sometime in hawaii and they will be treated the same as any other promoters contracts and all.
for anyone to call the men's "idiots" to sign the contract is beyond me. i guess the wpba contract is 10x more constricting. i never realized it, but the upa has what no else does. they are the men's organization.
it seems to me that mr. griffin is a promoter and an industry manufacturer with diamond. so how come he gets off the hook when charlie was a player and promoter as well? i mean, even if mark did start a tour, doesn't this mean that he has several conflicts of interest now? please explain.
now forgive me, but here is the most shocking part of all cardiac. You say you are a UPA touring pro member, and you don't know the answers to your own organization? you definately don't sound supportive. are you telling me that you are laying down what you believe simply because they are the only "game" in town? do you know this guy alvarez? do you ever talk to him or what? he is your rep you know? you almost sound like one of those guys that dates a gal but runs around speaking bad about her and telling your friends that as soon as someone better comes along your out of there. seems to me that you should be more supportive of the organization that is trying to actually make you some money. i have to you tell that i get a whole different picture of things after actually speaking with someone from the upa. in fact, you shoot me out some questions and i'll keep buggin him for answers.
i guess now the upa is leaving room for earl to play in any upa event provided the promoter wants a wild card.
so please explain their crooked side. i'll bring it up to them.
kim
in speaking at great length with frank alvarez with the upa my eyes were opened quite a bit about this whole upa thing. over the past couple days i have really asked him a lot of questions. I even asked him what the upa's mistakes were as well as why they happened. i know i bugged him to death, but he was very accomadating. he actually sent me a player's contract, and honestly I don't see anything on there that is out of line at all. it's simply a non-exclusive media rights contract. it has basic membership mumbo jumbo. the only other factor was the part that said the player will play in upa event over other events unless a waiver is granted. frank pointed out to me that the upa has an open waiver policy so that players could play anywhere. he also pointed out that the this clause was for the protection of the promoter that sactioned with them. which makes complete sense.
as far as this whole williams thing i guess charlie has his own events that he has independatly. charlie is treated no differently than any other promoter and is given the exact same contract to sign as anyone else. mr. alvarez pointed out to me that anyone can promote an event and the upa would work with them if they meet basic requirements. so I guess I don't understand the criticism?
again, the upa has not charged a "sactioning" fee for more than two years now. frank confirmed this.
another thing i don't understand is the fact frank pointed out that this was a player's organization. players ultimately have say in what's in the promoters contract as well as what they would like. i guess charlie and rodney morris are looking to do a upa event next year sometime in hawaii and they will be treated the same as any other promoters contracts and all.
for anyone to call the men's "idiots" to sign the contract is beyond me. i guess the wpba contract is 10x more constricting. i never realized it, but the upa has what no else does. they are the men's organization.
it seems to me that mr. griffin is a promoter and an industry manufacturer with diamond. so how come he gets off the hook when charlie was a player and promoter as well? i mean, even if mark did start a tour, doesn't this mean that he has several conflicts of interest now? please explain.
now forgive me, but here is the most shocking part of all cardiac. You say you are a UPA touring pro member, and you don't know the answers to your own organization? you definately don't sound supportive. are you telling me that you are laying down what you believe simply because they are the only "game" in town? do you know this guy alvarez? do you ever talk to him or what? he is your rep you know? you almost sound like one of those guys that dates a gal but runs around speaking bad about her and telling your friends that as soon as someone better comes along your out of there. seems to me that you should be more supportive of the organization that is trying to actually make you some money. i have to you tell that i get a whole different picture of things after actually speaking with someone from the upa. in fact, you shoot me out some questions and i'll keep buggin him for answers.
i guess now the upa is leaving room for earl to play in any upa event provided the promoter wants a wild card.
so please explain their crooked side. i'll bring it up to them.
kim
Cuteone said:
guess I still don't understand how mr. williams is "double-dipping" if he never recieved any pay for being president. which he did not. as well as the fact that he is treated by the upa board, in regards to his tournaments, like every other promoter. it just seems to me that people say things on this forum but don't back it up with facts. if charlie is giulty of something just say what it is so that it can be confirmed or proven false. then we will know how he is a double-dip.
also, no claimed that the upa contract was not similiar to the wpba contract. of course as two pro player organization they are going to be somewhat similiar, the issue is that the upa's contract with its members is much easy on the player. so i guess if the men are 'dumb asses,' what are the women?
fine, i don't expect everthing at the upa to be "rosy." I'm just asking a direct question. what is the problem? the question partains to where the faults are with the upa. so where are they? I'm not saying there are none. I am just wanting to know so that I can understand myself. again, i don't have a problem bringing these matters up to the upa.
as far as your board member friend, which one is it? and what does he say that is so bad about the upa, if anything.
about you being a member. didn't mean to offend you by saying that you weren't support of your own organization, on ther other hand, i don't hear you saying anything good about them.
seems to me that the upa is not doing anything other than asking from promoters things player would want; more prize money, garunteed pay outs, consistent rules, etc.
so what's the problem? who are the crooks? why is the upa so wrong? Manly? Gremlin? anyone? just be specific about your facts so that they can be verified.
also, no claimed that the upa contract was not similiar to the wpba contract. of course as two pro player organization they are going to be somewhat similiar, the issue is that the upa's contract with its members is much easy on the player. so i guess if the men are 'dumb asses,' what are the women?
fine, i don't expect everthing at the upa to be "rosy." I'm just asking a direct question. what is the problem? the question partains to where the faults are with the upa. so where are they? I'm not saying there are none. I am just wanting to know so that I can understand myself. again, i don't have a problem bringing these matters up to the upa.
as far as your board member friend, which one is it? and what does he say that is so bad about the upa, if anything.
about you being a member. didn't mean to offend you by saying that you weren't support of your own organization, on ther other hand, i don't hear you saying anything good about them.
seems to me that the upa is not doing anything other than asking from promoters things player would want; more prize money, garunteed pay outs, consistent rules, etc.
so what's the problem? who are the crooks? why is the upa so wrong? Manly? Gremlin? anyone? just be specific about your facts so that they can be verified.