Handicapped tournaments that rate players based on their league rating. Fair or not?

J

justinb386

Banned
I wonder if you think that a players league rating is the fair way to rank a player in a handicapped tournament?

Have you ever been in one where you were spotting a player a number of games, whom you thought played on an even level with you?

I wonder how often players get under ranked, just because they have a lower league rating then they should have, and they end up winning the events most of the time because they were under rated.

There is a big handicapped 9 ball tournament coming up in a few weeks (that is for locals only, and league players only), and I think they might let me play (possibly), but if they would, then I would probably have to play as a 9, and I do not think I would have any chance if rated that high.

Anyways, I am betting that it will be a 5 or a 6 who wins it, unless one of the 9's catch a really high gear and beat the odds.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
 
ideologist said:
Handicaps are not fair. There will always be bad feelings.

End of thread.
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I agree. The proliferation of handicapped tournaments is just another symptom of our society moving towards an entitled and liberal mindset, where everyone deserves a trophy. It's taking the hard work and effort of an advanced player and "redistributing the wealth" to less accomplished or motivated players. With that said, it's better than no tournament, and I understand the need to bring new players into the fold. Can't please everyone I guess.
 
Mrdodd72 said:
I agree. The proliferation of handicapped tournaments is just another symptom of our society moving towards an entitled and liberal mindset, where everyone deserves a trophy. It's taking the hard work and effort of an advanced player and "redistributing the wealth" to less accomplished or motivated players. With that said, it's better than no tournament, and I understand the need to bring new players into the fold. Can't please everyone I guess.
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What this guy said. Crystallized my thoughts exactly.
 
We have some small scale tourneys here, using league handicaps. It works cuz almost all of us play league, so we know each other pretty well.

In a bigger city where there is likely to be a bigger variety of people playing, I can see how it might not work as well.
 
Mrdodd72 said:
I agree. The proliferation of handicapped tournaments is just another symptom of our society moving towards an entitled and liberal mindset, where everyone deserves a trophy. It's taking the hard work and effort of an advanced player and "redistributing the wealth" to less accomplished or motivated players. With that said, it's better than no tournament, and I understand the need to bring new players into the fold. Can't please everyone I guess.
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So, leagues should also not be handicapped, right? But if that were the case, then the pool scene might be even smaller then it already is (or maybe even pretty much non existent).
 
justinb386 said:
So, leagues should also not be handicapped, right? But if that were the case, then the pool scene might be even smaller then it already is (or maybe even pretty much non existent).
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Yup, we should do everything we can to alienate as many people as we can.

There's way too many people in this dying sport today...
 
mmwtdh said:
Yup, we should do everything we can to alienate as many people as we can.

There's way too many people in this dying sport today...
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I feel that it has mostly become nothing but a social gathering (for something to do, while having a few beers for example), and not a serious sport.
 
Overall I think that Handicapped Tournaments are indeed a good thing. Using a players League Handicap is only a starting point, using a good Tournament Software like Ingen Pool is a must. Ingen Pool has a feature if you choose to use it that track a players S/L and warns you if that player need or warrants watching to either go up, or go down in S/L. The biggest trick is to limit the Tournament to ranges of S/L's 7-5, 6-4, 5-3, 4-2 etc. doing it this way keeps the races fairly even, vs. a 7 playing a 3 and giving up a 6-2 race etc.

Players may not be happy with the Handicap assigned at anytime but, all you can do is keep things as even as possible for everyone.

~Black Cat~ :cool:
 
.



Handicaps is the only way to get players of all skill levels involved.

Just don't lose a game...then you don't have to worry about other players

being under handicapped.


Just hit 'em in the hole and win.

Handicap league is the only league I play in.





.
 
Mrdodd72 said:
I agree. The proliferation of handicapped tournaments is just another symptom of our society moving towards an entitled and liberal mindset, where everyone deserves a trophy. It's taking the hard work and effort of an advanced player and "redistributing the wealth" to less accomplished or motivated players. With that said, it's better than no tournament, and I understand the need to bring new players into the fold. Can't please everyone I guess.
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So by your "wisdom" those of a lesser skill should simply not enter unless they are feeling really froggy and think they are going to shoot well above their normal level to beat people they surely have no chance at even. How many people do you think you are excluding from participating with this arrogant system of no handicaps?

There are some I have seen that actually charge less for lower skill levels to entice them even more.
 
Skippy27 said:
So by your "wisdom" those of a lesser skill should simply not enter unless they are feeling really froggy and think they are going to shoot well above their normal level to beat people they surely have no chance at even. How many people do you think you are excluding from participating with this arrogant system of no handicaps?

There are some I have seen that actually charge less for lower skill levels to entice them even more.
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If getting the money is their motivation, then NO they shouldn't enter the tournament. But if they're one of the rare individuals who love the game, and truly wish to improve, then enter, and learn something.

I paid my dues; years of hard work and "two and out" tournaments. The thousands of hours, and dollars, that I have spent, in my mind, deserve a little payback.

I'm not looking to run over any tournaments (I try and find the hardest tournament I can), but I don't believe a new, or casual player deserves a 50/50 shot at me either, which seems to be the aim of some of these handicaps.
There never used to be all these handicapped tournaments.
How did they fill up those tournaments back then? Pool was healthier then, no handicaps didn't seem to discourage most of the players here who have been playing more than two decades. How are they so important now?

I cringe every time I over hear players remark that they will refuse to play in a tournament if "so and so" is playing; weak ass shit! If Efren, Johnny, Rodney and Shane want to play in my little local tournament, I'll be there every week, donating my cash.

I guess we have to spoon feed casual players to keep our sport alive...blah, blah, blah. They won't get better that way though. I will be happy to donate time and knowledge to any player who wants help, but most are in love with getting the cheese, or the idea of being a good player, rather than actually being a good player.
 
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justinb386 said:
So, leagues should also not be handicapped, right? But if that were the case, then the pool scene might be even smaller then it already is (or maybe even pretty much non existent).
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I said nothing about the leagues. They are a different creature.
 
justinb386 said:
I feel that it has mostly become nothing but a social gathering (for something to do, while having a few beers for example), and not a serious sport.
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But people do the same thing with basketball and soccer and so forth...it's always a social gathering meant for people to enjoy...then there is some of us that play seriously and want to reach a higher level. I do like just open tournaments....they are fair...and that's where I have ever learned the most

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At the sandcastle they have software developed by Ed and a local player. The software adjusts your rating based on where you finish. It does more than take into consideration winning the whole tourney.
 
It is been my experience that three of the four guys in the finals of the brackets are almost always the high ranked players.
 
Mrdodd72 said:
If getting the money is their motivation, then NO they shouldn't enter the tournament. But if they're one of the rare individuals who love the game, and truly wish to improve, then enter, and learn something.

I paid my dues; years of hard work and "two and out" tournaments. The thousands of hours, and dollars, that I have spent, in my mind, deserve a little payback.

I'm not looking to run over any tournaments (I try and find the hardest tournament I can), but I don't believe a new, or casual player deserves a 50/50 shot at me either, which seems to be the aim of some of these handicaps.
There never used to be all these handicapped tournaments.
How did they fill up those tournaments back then? Pool was healthier then, no handicaps didn't seem to discourage most of the players here who have been playing more than two decades. How are they so important now?

I cringe every time I over hear players remark that they will refuse to play in a tournament if "so and so" is playing; weak ass shit! If Efren, Johnny, Rodney and Shane want to play in my little local tournament, I'll be there every week, donating my cash.

I guess we have to spoon feed casual players to keep our sport alive...blah, blah, blah. They won't get better that way though. I will be happy to donate time and knowledge to any player who wants help, but most are in love with getting the cheese, or the idea of being a good player, rather than actually being a good player.
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I love this post...my sentiments exactly. I knew I had no chance of winning the Steinway classic but man did my game jump a couple of notches after that...and I did it again in Tony Crosbys tour in Florida i played in the super 32 and got killed by davis jr mentally i was flawed and I got over a big hurdle mentally in that tournament.

I have played again in his super 16 and a tally beat people and gave a couple of pros a hill hill battle...again. if efren Strickland duel...etc is playing, i want to play there.

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I am a fairly strong player but nowhere near the best players in my area. Personally I prefer the handicap tournaments. I feel like the player who plays the best over the course of the tournament should win. The strongest players can usually win when playing their B game when everyone plays even. I feel like they should have to be at the top of their game to win instead of just robbing the field.

Tournaments in my area which have no handicap die because the same players win and everyone else just gets tired of donating because the gap in skill level is so wide.

FWIW typically the strongest players win the handicap tournaments anyway but all players feel like they have a better shot of being competitive.

This is one reason there isn't a pro tour. There is a small group of top tier pros who would win the lion's share of all the prize funds. Say you needed 64 players per tourney at 1k a player for a tour. There may realistically be 3/4 of the field who do not have the skills to win vs top tier players. How long do you think those players would keep putting in 1k a week if they never got anything in return?
 
In my area a couple people started running tournaments and made their own rankings. It mimic's close to APA handicaps but adds an 8 skill level for 8 ball since we have some top level players in my area. Everyone is ranked by known skill level and adjusted as needed. Just because a 5 might play one set even with a 7 doesn't mean they are a 7 the consistency isn't there. I think they have a done a very good job and its pretty fair. there might be a few people the could be 1 under depending on the day and how they play but they are there because of consistency and when they feel they are getting better they move them up. It must be ok because Friday night handicap chip tournaments have 50-60 players every week and Saturday they run doubles tournaments usually with close to 40 teams.
 
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