$%^# Handicapped Tournaments!

LowEnglish

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tonight was the last straw. I've been playing handicapped tournaments at this one place for about 3 months. I won the tournament once as an A-, and my rating got raised to an A+. I am a decent player but I don't play strong like an A+ should. Last week I lost in the 3rd round, but I was playing very well. I wasn't running racks and racks, but maybe like one break and run and the rest of the time if I had 4 or 5 balls with a shot I got out most of the time. Even though I lost my 3rd match, the tournament director was watching and he raised me to an A+. I know that I am not at that level. The other A+ players are like shortstop level, I mean they can run racks and racks, and they give up alot of spots.

I didn't argue about my handicap being raised because I don't like to complain. I thought about it this week before tonights tournament and I told myself that maybe this will help me play better. Even though I have to give up weight to guys that I should be playing even, I thought that the added pressure would help me improve. So I joined the tournament tonight. In the first round, I drew a player that alot of people have been complaining about. He is rated a C+, but he plays more like a B+. Numberous times I heard people tell the TD that this guy should be raised one full average, because he can actually run out sometimes, and he plays good safes. The TD didn't adjust him, so I had to give him the max spot of 4 games to 7. I was thinking about saying something before the match started, but I decided that I would play my best and see what happens. He wins the flip, and what does he do the first game? He breaks and runs out. Now I am stuck 5-0. I manage to win 2 games in a row. The next game I break and don't make a ball. He runs 5 balls and pockets a 6-9 combo. Once he did that I got extremely frustrated. The first break and run, he stayed in line perfectly and got out like a pro. In the rack with the combo, he made a great shot on the 1 ball and stayed in perfect like for the 6-9 combo. If he had made a sloppy out, I wouldn't have been so pissed, but him staying in line perfectly demonstrated how well this guy can really play. The TD was watching the match, and didn't say a word. The next game literally drove me nuts. I played safe on the 1 ball and left him locked up. The 3 ball was on the end rail tied up between the 8 ball and 9-ball. He goes for the kick and left me an easy shot, but his stick knocked the 3 out of the cluster and left it in an open area, which made the runout possible. He quickly picked up the 3ball and put it back in the cluster. I told him that he had no right to do that, because it is up to the incoming shooter whether the ball stays there or goes back. I told him I wanted the 3ball where it stopped after he accidentally hit it with his stick. He picked it up and put it in a spot that was about 4 inches away from where it really stopped, and he made it so it was tied up with the 6-ball!!! I nearly blew a fuse. I told him that the 3ball was over to the left a few inches, and that it wasn't tied up with that ball. He started arguing with me, and I looked at the TD. He looks at me and says that the guy put it back in the right spot. This is complete and utter bullshit, but there was nothing I could do about it. I made the one and two, and had to play shape for the 3 in the side at a steep angle, which was the only available pocket because of where he put it. If it was where it should have been, I could have played position to the corner. I missed the 3 ball and the guy ran out the 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 for the win. I was so upset I was almost in tears. I went up to the TD and asked him why he never raised that guys average after all the complaints, and he said that he felt the guy didn't play any better than a C+ and that he just happened to play the match of his life against me. I also mentioned to him that he placed the 3 ball in the wrong spot. Guess what he tells me? "You have to take the other guy's word for it". The TD saw me in stroke ONCE out of all the tournaments I've played in, and he raised me from an A- to an A+ in one week! That is 2 full digits. He watches a C+ run out and play perfect position, and even after complaints from weeks before, he wouldn't adjust that guys average. I told him that's F***ed up, and I left. I don't think I'm gonna play that tournament again. What would you all do in that situation?
 
Thats all you can do is not play... Who are you going to complain to... I've played in tourneys where the "House" players are obviously rated lower than they should be... They start unknowns higher than they should be and the "system" in place doesn't really allow for much movement downward... It happens a lot in places run and frequented by younger players...

Handicapped tourneys draw younger players without a lot of ettiquite too so I pretty much decided to give them up (cept one local weekly I like) and start playing scratch tourneys even though I am probably only a 7 or 8 on the 9 scale (where top players go to like 9-4)...

I do better against top players and don't mind when I lose so much anyway...
 
I've been going to this weekly 9-ball tourney for a while now, and they just recently started handicapping it. Out of a race to 5, I have to spot most of the guys 2 games. There are times that I have to play a guy and I know he's about my speed. What does the tournament director do...still handicap me. Even if I complain, it does no good because this guy is the TD's "favorite." I still go because I enjoy the competition and it does me good to get a little extra practice. But sometimes I get really fed up with it.
 
If he moved the ball and then moved it back it should be ball in hand for you. You are the only one who can move the ball and you have the final say as to where it goes even if it is no where near where it was. Try playing at the higher level for a while. It will improve your game. If you feel you really should be an A level, then try to play at the A+ level. It's not much of a difference but will surely make you try harder and play better.
 
LowEnglish said:
[...]
He watches a C+ run out and play perfect position, and even after complaints from weeks before, he wouldn't adjust that guys average. I told him that's F***ed up, and I left. I don't think I'm gonna play that tournament again. What would you all do in that situation?

I've been running $300 added monthly handicapped tournaments for five months now. We alternate 8-ball one month and 9-ball the next. Players race in 9-ball to 3,4,5,6,7, or 8.

While I reserve the right to adjust people, I do guarantee rating changes under certain conditions.

For instance, a player *automatically* gets bumped down a rating if he or she

** goes two-and-out two tournaments in a row
or
** fails to cash for five consecutive tournaments.

And a player *automatically* gets bumped up if he or she

** wins a tournament
or
** finishes in the top three for three out of five

I definitely have C players (who go to 4) who on occasion run a rack staying in line. If you just watched that game, you might start whining about their rating. But if you keep watching, you'll catch them missing on the 7 or 8 ball, passing up an obvious safety opportunity, passing up obvious two-way shots, etc. As a result, they rarely keep it together for the several matches necessary to do something in a tournament.

I think you should cut the TD some slack and not get involved in other peoples ratings.

mike page
fargo
 
mnShooter said:
If he moved the ball and then moved it back it should be ball in hand for you. You are the only one who can move the ball and you have the final say as to where it goes even if it is no where near where it was.

Ditto. Your opponent fouled by moving the ball without alerting you to the situation and asking if you wanted it restored to its original position.

Barbara
 
Did this guy ever win a tournament or does he always place in the money? Maybe the TD has no reason to put him up a level? It is very possible for C players to have good runs and make good decisions, although I don't agree with that whole 3-ball episode. You should have been the one to replace the 3-ball.
 
LowEnglish said:
Tonight was the last straw...

I didn't argue about my handicap being raised because I don't like to complain...

I was so upset I was almost in tears...

I told him that's F***ed up, and I left. I don't think I'm gonna play that tournament again.

What would you all do in that situation?

LowEnglish,
I certainly enjoyed your post, it certainly brings up the negative elements of handicapped 9-ball. I can only say that I would definitely (and do) continue to play. IT'S JUST A FREAKIN' GAME!!!!!!

I would enjoy myself, encourage my opponent, and compete intensely. I would NEVER get upset or argue (at least at the tournaments here in NeverNeverLand). In the words of a great coach, if you are ever going to succeed in athletics you must LOVE winning, but you can't mind losing. Any other approach and you become SoreLoserSoftballGuy, which is a "loss" even if you win the game.
 
LowEnglish said:
He goes for the kick and left me an easy shot, but his stick knocked the 3 out of the cluster and left it in an open area, which made the runout possible. He quickly picked up the 3ball and put it back in the cluster. I told him that he had no right to do that, because it is up to the incoming shooter whether the ball stays there or goes back. I told him I wanted the 3ball where it stopped after he accidentally hit it with his stick. He picked it up and put it in a spot that was about 4 inches away from where it really stopped, and he made it so it was tied up with the 6-ball!!! I nearly blew a fuse. I told him that the 3ball was over to the left a few inches, and that it wasn't tied up with that ball. He started arguing with me, and I looked at the TD. He looks at me and says that the guy put it back in the right spot.
Couple of things. It's your responsibility to move the object ball back where you thought it was. Secondly, the spirit of the rule is for you, the non-offending player, to put it back. It's not the spirit of the rules for you take advantage of the fact that the ball got knocked out of the cluster. I know you're pissed, but that doesn't mean you should take advantage of the situation. The ball was in a cluster before, it should be in a cluster after. Finally, the TD has final word.

Handicap tourney's are a b*tch. If you lose, inevitably you'll lose because of the handicap. It's something that will always be a problem. Either don't play them, or expect the worst.

Every player will swing his playing skills from the highs of highs, to the lows of lows. Let's not discourage the weaker player by ruining his day of glory.

Fred <~~~ hate handicapped tourney's
 
I half disagree. lol

Fred Agnir said:
Couple of things. It's your responsibility to move the object ball back where you thought it was. Secondly, the spirit of the rule is for you, the non-offending player, to put it back. It's not the spirit of the rules for you take advantage of the fact that the ball got knocked out of the cluster. I know you're pissed, but that doesn't mean you should take advantage of the situation. The ball was in a cluster before, it should be in a cluster after. Finally, the TD has final word.

Handicap tourney's are a b*tch. If you lose, inevitably you'll lose because of the handicap. It's something that will always be a problem. Either don't play them, or expect the worst.

Every player will swing his playing skills from the highs of highs, to the lows of lows. Let's not discourage the weaker player by ruining his day of glory.

Fred <~~~ hate handicapped tourney's

It is the opponents responsibility to move it back ,"if that is what he decides he wants to do." He has the option to leave it where it lays. If that is to his advantage so be it, that is the price the shooter must pay for screwing up. Some tournaments as you know call that a foul and ball in hand. However you are right that when and if you do move it back you should both agree where it was and not take advantage when moving it back.
 
Fred Agnir said:
Every player will swing his playing skills from the highs of highs, to the lows of lows. Let's not discourage the weaker player by ruining his day of glory.

Fred <~~~ hate handicapped tourney's

I stopped playing leagues and handicapped tournaments several years ago. I firmly feel that handicapped leagues really hurt competitive pool. There seems to be nearly a 50/50 divide meaning that half are playing hard and strive to improve. The other half is trying to win (sometimes) while playing just good enough to "get by". Every week it is the same stuff..... "so and so plays too good to be a 4 or so and so is a five in the league and gambles even with higher ranked league players". Then you'll have "Mr. Rulebook". Mr. Rulebook will knows everything in the rulebook and will use it to his or her advantage at any time regardless of how petty the rule might be. Mr. Rulebook will be the guy that gets behind in a match and forfiets because the forfiet might be a 15 to 5 loss and he was on the brink of losing maybe 18-2.

I just want to play. I want to play good players in tournaments or in a handicapped matchup that both participants feel comfortable giving or getting a spot that is fair. As a person who desires to improve his game I just can't see myself going back to a situation when my own team wouldn't want me to run a couple racks cause my ranking might go up. That is not how to improve your game and it is certainly not admirable.

Besides the first session I played in the APA we went to Vegas and finished 9-12 place in 9-ball. After traveling to Baltimore for qualifiers over 3 different weekends, staying in hotels, weekly league fees etc... our 9th place finish did not see any of us even break even.

Don't get my wrong here. the other half are fun-loving hard playing folks but even they to are eventually discouraged by "the other half".

My advice to players considering handicapped play would be to go to the pool room and find a strong player that has a rep as a stand-up type person. Either take lessons or play them some cheap if the person agrees to help you along the way. Go out to big tournaments and see the best players. Play in those tournaments and get your tail beat for a while. I would much rather get my tail beat and learn at the same time than be pressured to "lay down" week after week.
 
barrett9ball said:
I just want to play. I want to play good players in tournaments or in a handicapped matchup that both participants feel comfortable giving or getting a spot that is fair. As a person who desires to improve his game I just can't see myself going back to a situation when my own team wouldn't want me to run a couple racks cause my ranking might go up. That is not how to improve your game and it is certainly not admirable.

Don't get my wrong here. the other half are fun-loving hard playing folks but even they to are eventually discouraged by "the other half".

My advice to players considering handicapped play would be to go to the pool room and find a strong player that has a rep as a stand-up type person. Either take lessons or play them some cheap if the person agrees to help you along the way. Go out to big tournaments and see the best players. Play in those tournaments and get your tail beat for a while. I would much rather get my tail beat and learn at the same time than be pressured to "lay down" week after week.

Ditto Dude. You are a "Tournament Player". You want the competition. So do I. I still can't believe I signed up for the APA. To me, it's nothing compared to staring down a WPBA Touring Pro in a match. Plus, I've got the push-out after the break and the 3-foul rule! LOL!

Barbara
 
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Wah, Wah, Wah.

Do you always cry so much?

Handicap tournaments are designed to help the weaker players and keep them coming to the pool hall/ bar so that the owner can make some money. They do like to make money you know.

And really, once you reach the A level is spotting a game or two or three to a weak player really a handicap that you should be afraid of? It's not like you are spotting the last three or four balls where if you miss one shot you lose.

Join Kingsbay and play in their tournaments - no handicaps there - just a race to 7.

Of course, then you won't have a built in excuse for losing.
 
I totally agree with Fred that the 3 ball should have been placed where it was before your opponent hit it. Watch the movie "Bagger Vance" where a golfer moves some grass under his ball and the ball moves. He called the foul on himself. This is an attitude the game of pool needs more of!!

As for whether you should continue to play or not, hey, that's up to you. If you want to grow as a player and a human being, I suggest you figure out how to take more responsiblility for your life and not put it off on others. You can't control what the other player does or what the TD does so why worry about it. Worry about your abilities and integrity.
 
I played in Mike Page's 8-ball tourny last month, and I'll say it is as fair as it gets. There are obviously players who are quite better then my game, but with the handicap I do have a chance. Ditto for the lesser players. Nothing wrong with giving them a chance.

Remember, you don't HAVE to play!

Who said, "its only a freakin game!!" You hit the nail on the head!

Mike, I missed your recent 9-ball tourny (hey, its hunting season!) , however, we received the news today that my wife landed a job at MeritCare, so we'll be packin out of Alexandria and heading your direction for good. Expect me to be a pain-in-the-butt regular.

I'll see you as soon as my freezer is full and there are no "tags" left. :D
 
jjinfla said:
Wah, Wah, Wah.

Do you always cry so much?

Handicap tournaments are designed to help the weaker players and keep them coming to the pool hall/ bar so that the owner can make some money. They do like to make money you know.

And really, once you reach the A level is spotting a game or two or three to a weak player really a handicap that you should be afraid of? It's not like you are spotting the last three or four balls where if you miss one shot you lose.

Join Kingsbay and play in their tournaments - no handicaps there - just a race to 7.

Of course, then you won't have a built in excuse for losing.

Instead of just skimming thru my post and jumping to a conclusion, you should bother reading the whole thing before you open big mouth, prick. I said I don't like to complain, that should answer your first question. After that I explained what frustrated me and at the end I asked for advice. Go take some reading comprehension courses, you ignorant bitch. :rolleyes:

I was wondering what happened to you, it's been a while since I've seen you roaming these boards talking alot shit like you used to. You must have realized that being the AZbilliards ass is your true calling and decided to come back. :D
 
Still crying I see.

You asked for advice - my advice was for you to stop crying so much. No one wants to hear it. Accidental contact with a ball happens in every tournament, you make it sound like it never happened to you before. And you surely showed that when it did happen you did not know how to handle it.

Now go home and kick the dog and tell yourself how tough you are.
 
Handicapping is tough ...

Handicapping is tough because there are always many
exceptions to whatever rules apply. I recently played
in a pretty good 32 player tournaement with calcutta.
I got there and found out that I was raised from an 8
to 9 (with 10 the highest), and some of the other good
players that play there also got raised (3 or 4). All the
players that don't play there on a regular basis got to
play under their 'old normal' handicap. They said it was
because of the field, and to be fair to everyone.
Well, it wasn't fair to us better players that play there
every week to get bumped up while the nonregulars
got to play with their handicaps. I had to give a game
away to 2 guys I played that I would never do for money.
(they were 8's). My point is the owner sees us shoot
all the time, the nonregulars she doesn't, so she doesn't
really have a good basis for judging their handicaps, just
what had been used before. BTW, it was an 8 ball tournament
handicapped from 4 to 10, 2 day tournament.

BTW, the two nonregular 8's ended up 1st and 2nd, I got 4th.
 
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The problem w/ Handicaps are that they ussally help either the better players or they help the week players.

I'v played in a few that a -D player had to win 2-5 against an A player, All the A player needs to do is play 1 good safe and that game and the next should be in the bag.

And on the other side a C player had to play a B player even.

But that's handicapping, someone is making a judgement call. And that is an opinion, and you don't always aree w/ other peoples opinions.

Just tossing that out there.

Pete
 
barrett9ball said:
I stopped playing leagues and handicapped tournaments several years ago. I firmly feel that handicapped leagues really hurt competitive pool. There seems to be nearly a 50/50 divide meaning that half are playing hard and strive to improve. The other half is trying to win (sometimes) while playing just good enough to "get by". Every week it is the same stuff..... "so and so plays too good to be a 4 or so and so is a five in the league and gambles even with higher ranked league players". Then you'll have "Mr. Rulebook". Mr. Rulebook will knows everything in the rulebook and will use it to his or her advantage at any time regardless of how petty the rule might be. Mr. Rulebook will be the guy that gets behind in a match and forfiets because the forfiet might be a 15 to 5 loss and he was on the brink of losing maybe 18-2.

I just want to play. I want to play good players in tournaments or in a handicapped matchup that both participants feel comfortable giving or getting a spot that is fair. As a person who desires to improve his game I just can't see myself going back to a situation when my own team wouldn't want me to run a couple racks cause my ranking might go up. That is not how to improve your game and it is certainly not admirable.

Besides the first session I played in the APA we went to Vegas and finished 9-12 place in 9-ball. After traveling to Baltimore for qualifiers over 3 different weekends, staying in hotels, weekly league fees etc... our 9th place finish did not see any of us even break even.

Don't get my wrong here. the other half are fun-loving hard playing folks but even they to are eventually discouraged by "the other half".

My advice to players considering handicapped play would be to go to the pool room and find a strong player that has a rep as a stand-up type person. Either take lessons or play them some cheap if the person agrees to help you along the way. Go out to big tournaments and see the best players. Play in those tournaments and get your tail beat for a while. I would much rather get my tail beat and learn at the same time than be pressured to "lay down" week after week.

While this may be fine for a larger center, in a smaller pool location there is little choice. Around here there are perhaps 2 open tournaments a year, and the entry fees are 10x the handicapped tourneys. While it is great to say "I'd rather play a pro even", it would mean I'd play exactly 0 times a year. The weekly handicapped tournaments around here are frequented by all levels of players looking for some competition. It doesn't seem to bother the best players around to have to shoot against a C player giving them 2 on the wire (to 7) and the 7. They understand that this kind of match is a bit different strategicly than playing someone of their own skill even. They understand that it is most often the handicapping system when they loose to a C who flukes the 7 or 8 or 9 after hammering the balls (of course the C's see it differently, but who cares, as someone/Fred? said, let them have their moment of 'glory'). The A players understand that without the handicapped tourneys there would be no tournaments around here, there would be no participation. Having said all that, the better players are most often in the money, regardless of the handicaps.

Dave
 
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