handicaps from different regions

L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This subject was brought up once before but since I have acquired 2 new players from different regions recently I can share my thoughts.

I picked up a 5 two sessions ago from north Carolina. My impression of him after his 1st match was pretty spot on. I did not think he was a 5 ....compared to 5's in my area and halfway through the session he dropped to a 4

The other played I just added Las night is a 6 from Michigan. My 1st impression after his 8 and 9 ball mat he's last night ....undecided if he is a damn strong 5 like me or a decent 6.

I realm cant tell yet due to he had a brace from a recent wrist injury on his bridge hand .and like the 5 who joined a lil while ba k he was noticeably nervous during his 1st match.

After every inn in he come over checking the score. He w as don't n 8-1 After the 1 st rack vs a 7. He kept chipping away at his opponents lead every rack but was still nervous.

Finally I told him.. I can tell you are nervous and I know you are having trouble bridging. Just lighten up and relax and just do your thing. I said its the 1st match in the 1st session of the year and we have a long way to go so I aint worried about what happens tonight so you don't need to wore either.

Well that calmed him down and he went on to win 46-34 against a 7. One thing is for sure. His 9 ball break is a whole lot better than mine and probably the main difference between mine and his level of play.

He faced the same guy in 8 ball and he won hill-hill. My 1st thought is he is better at 9 and I am better at 8 even though I am a 5 in both. I say that because I faced that guy recently in 8 ball and shut him out 4-0 and he dropped from a 7 to a 6 whereas my 6 barley him hill-hill.

Now I know its only one night but my 1st impressions of new players I see is usually pretty accurate.

So with 2 new players from different areas here I seems our local handicaps are just a touch stronger than these other 2 areas.

Yea I know its only one player from each area to judge by but I also have the opinions of guys I faced from other areas that say I am stronger than players in their areas with the same handicap.
 
Lowrider,

This should generate some interesting replies. This is a question I've asked many times before only phrased differently. Is an APA 7 from the "backwoods" equal in ability to an APA 7 from New York City, LaLa or Chicago? Looking forward to reading the replies.

Lyn
 
First thing and maybe this is why I may see things a little different but I never played in APA. Anyway from what I see in BCAPL you can have large dependencies in player skill when they are the same level. Also playing relatively short races its seems hard to get a good handle on how even or unevenly matched 2 players are.
If you were to take 100 of the lower APA SLs and they all played against each other in the same league wouldnt you have some 3's become 7's and some 3's remain at SL3? Im not real clear on how APA SL's work but the SL's are based on relative skill level of your competitors, are they not?
 
cardiac kid said:
Lowrider,

This should generate some interesting replies. This is a question I've asked many times before only phrased differently. Is an APA 7 from the "backwoods" equal in ability to an APA 7 from New York City, LaLa or Chicago? Looking forward to reading the replies.

Lyn
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I really dont think you can compare 7's in 8 ball. It's pretty much common knowledge a 7 can range from a c plus to semi pro. For example I recently beat a 7 4-0 and he dropped fo a 6. On the other hand there are a few 7's capable of shutting me out 5-0 with out batting an eye.

As for 9 ball it would be interesting to see what other people think.
 
lorider said:
I really dont think you can compare 7's in 8 ball. It's pretty much common knowledge a 7 can range from a c plus to semi pro. For example I recently beat a 7 4-0 and he dropped fo a 6. On the other hand there are a few 7's capable of shutting me out 5-0 with out batting an eye.

As for 9 ball it would be interesting to see what other people think.
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Same thing. When I played APA, I was probable one of the worst SL-9s in the country. And that's not just self degradation.

Out of every 10 legitimate SL-9s, I'd be at <4 (the lower 40% if the math is too complex). I used to say I was worse than that, but I've met a few SL-9s that are worse than I am. That's sad.

Freddie <~~~ sad
 
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fastone371 said:
First thing and maybe this is why I may see things a little different but I never played in APA. Anyway from what I see in BCAPL you can have large dependencies in player skill when they are the same level. Also playing relatively short races its seems hard to get a good handle on how even or unevenly matched 2 players are.
If you were to take 100 of the lower APA SLs and they all played against each other in the same league wouldnt you have some 3's become 7's and some 3's remain at SL3? Im not real clear on how APA SL's work but the SL's are based on relative skill level of your competitors, are they not?
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Ian going to zero in On your last question . I believe yes...to some degree it is based on the level on competition in your area.

However....since all scoresheets are entered into the same data base and all lo' s are supposed to follow the same guide lines when handicapping locally it stands to reason tha a 5 in Memphis should play approximately at the same level as a 5 in Atlanta.

In other words all the same basic criteria is used to determine your handicap no matter where you live.

I really believe if there are differences in playing ability from one area to another concerning a s/l 5 cod example it comes down to accurate scorekeeping

In other words if an area has an abundance of teams that are fanatics about accurate score keeping ...marking every safety and every inning so a 5 who averages 5 safes a match and averages 15 innings is duly noted. Then compare that to an area where people are lax about marking safes..too busy on their phones or talking to team mates or deliberately not marking safes and a 5 averages 15 innings do you really think they are of equal playing ability ?
 
cardiac kid said:
Lowrider,

This should generate some interesting replies. This is a question I've asked many times before only phrased differently. Is an APA 7 from the "backwoods" equal in ability to an APA 7 from New York City, LaLa or Chicago? Looking forward to reading the replies.

Lyn
Click to expand...

I've probably posted a dozen or more posts on why an APA7 in a region can be a different skill levels than another region. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find them in the old RSB.

Freddie <~~~ too tired to rehash
 
At work and got sidetracked and had to cut short...sorry

My point is the 5 who has safties duly noted will more than likely go up. The 5 who hardly ever has a safe marked will stay a 5 even though he has the same playing ability as the one who went up. Son areas are.dead.serious about handicapping and ofor others its just a night out socializing and shooting pool

Having been a bar banger my entire life It took me 3 years of playing before I came around to the idea of safety play and it is still evolving.

My lifetime safety % went from 0 % the 1st 3 years to 1.98% after 5 years. To put it into perspective I had 0 % during an estimated 300 matches to almost 2% over 600 matches.
 
cardiac kid said:
Lowrider,

This should generate some interesting replies. This is a question I've asked many times before only phrased differently. Is an APA 7 from the "backwoods" equal in ability to an APA 7 from New York City, LaLa or Chicago? Looking forward to reading the replies.

Lyn
Click to expand...

Well I just got back from Vegas as I went there just to shoot in the Mini Mania tournaments as a 6 and can provide some input as I have done this in the past. Overall I have probably played around 100 different people from 5's, 6's and 7's from all over the country and Canada in 8 ball. I don't play 9 ball so I can't speak to that.

Just this year I played people from Chicago, Louisville, Arkansas, Kentucky, New York, Long Island, LA, San Francisco and others. Some from the big cities others from the back hills I couldn't even remember. Some were there to actually shot in the National tournament others were there just to shot mini's like me.

I played 4 - 5's and 3 - 7's with all the rest being fellow 6's (25 I believe). I did sweep 4 matches, was never sweep and had 5 matches going hill-hill with the rest ending with a decent race. In total I played in 12 mini's with an overall good showing which gave me the opportunity to see many different people (32 if I recall correctly) as I never shot the same person twice this year. Don't think that has ever happened before. :smile:

With that I would say that in 8 ball the ratings are pretty well handicapped as they should be being the quality of your opponent has little to do with how well you are capable of shooting. After this year I have ran into 2 people that I would say are under rated. One, a couple years back, was a 6 that should be a 7 and one was a 5 this year that should probably be a 6. The 5 agreed she should be raised or is very close to being, as did her girlfriend. If someone was overrated, then I could not tell if they were playing bad for their rating or just a bad player. With experience one can tell a person's SL in the 5, 6 and 7 range in how they think the game and the shoots they choose or attempt so it is hard to say if someone is overrated based on seeing them miss stuff. I would lean towards they are just shooting bad.

I did have to sit next to a 5 or 6 in a match that whined about his opponent only being rated a 6 because the guy ran the table on him once and then almost did it a 2nd time but was shutting him out. He said to his buddy behind him, "What 6 is able to run the table like that and can beat me so easily?" I had just beaten the one he was complaining about in the finals of another tournament 5-0 with a BnR and just did another one against the guy I was currently playing right next to him (my only 2 :frown:)so I got a good chuckle out of that. However, in his world 6's shouldn't be able to 1.) Run the table as he did. 2.) Beat him without him winning a game. Both of which are false, but he kept it up and his buddy kept agreeing which just adds to the rating conflicts.
 
lorider said:
Ian going to zero in On your last question . I believe yes...to some degree it is based on the level on competition in your area.
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I would strongly disagree with this as the quality of your opponent has no factor into the formula they use to obtain ratings.

If you are suggesting they use a bell curve for an area, which I believe you are, then you are completely wrong and my post above after returning from Vegas validates that.
 
Skippy27 said:
I would strongly disagree with this as the quality of your opponent has no factor into the formula they use to obtain ratings.

If you are suggesting they use a bell curve for an area, which I believe you are, then you are completely wrong and my post above after returning from Vegas validates that.
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I have been fo Vegas and I agree....most I encountered were within their handicap level.


I did see a few that I thought was under rated and one that was over rated. My 1st match was vs another & and I blew him away 38-4 earning my 1st ever skunk for a 20 -0 score

My 2 ND match was vs another 5 and I won 38-10. My 3 rd match was vs a 7. He won the lag and I was down 18-0 before I ever got to shoot. I then went on matching him point for point and lost needing only one point.

Maybe i was under rated :smile:

I will say a 2 from Colorado impressed the hell out of not o ly me but 2 officials as well. I was standing at the back of our table observing the mat h between our 3 and their 2. An official came up near where I was and started watching also.....no I did not call him over..lol during the match he commented ...wow ..she made 3 great shots in a row 1 I said yea....not bad for a 2 ...huh ? He looked at me in disbelief and said...she is a 2 ?

I said..that is what the score sheet says. He turns around and walls over to another table and gets another official to come wat h also. After wat hung a few shots the 2 ND official tells the 1st one to get her name and put it on the watch list.

Oh...btw...i have been raised to a 6 three times in 9 ball and once in 8 ball. I just am not consists t enough to stay at that level
 
Celophanewrap said:
Do you remember the 2? Male or female? and your 3, male or female?
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The 3 was my g/f..rather not say her name on her...pm me if you like. I do not recall the 2's name at all.she was young...early to mid 20's latin descent...matter of fact I believe the entire team was Latin

Why are you interests in names... You would not happen to be an official there at the time would you ?
 
lorider said:
The 3 was my g/f..rather not say her name on her...pm me if you like. I do not recall the 2's name at all.she was young...early to mid 20's latin descent...matter of fact I believe the entire team was Latin

Why are you interests in names... You would not happen to be an official there at the time would you ?
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I need the names because I think one of you may stolen my wallet.....:) just kidding
No, I wasn't an official, did you guys win or lose that match and did you guys have an older guy that had a really hard time breaking the rack
 
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Celophanewrap said:
No, I wasn't an official, did you guys win or lose that match and did you guys have an older guy that had a really hard time breaking the rack
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Lost...they put us out.

I am an older guy ...59 back then . Dont have trouble breaking the rack but my break sucks though
 
This was posted by a former APA league operator in a similar thread. I think it answers the question of the seeming lack of consistency from one APA league to another. For example take 2 players (or even the same player who plays in two leagues) who play at the level of a baseline 5. They could be ranked differently. One from strong league may be a 4 while one in a weak league could be a 6. The 4 looks like a sandbagger to the 6 because they both play at the same speed, only circumstances separate their S/L, not their play and neither are cheating and the LO's aren't playing favorites. At least that's how I read it.

TCIndepMo said:
Two different SLs from two current APA areas is possible because each area inputs ONLY THOSE SCORES from their own area into their database. (similar to a softball player in the Monday night cut throat anything goes league where every game is playing as a blood sport and his Monday BA is only .250 vs his play on Wednesday in the local co-ed beer league (where you get to take the beer with you to the outfield, but don't leave the emptys out there) where all the pitchers are horrible and hence our hypothetical player is batting over .700 on Wednesday It's all softball but two different experiences and two averages. Not the greatest analogy, but hoping you get my drift) LOs can manually check on the current SLs from other areas but the software does not do it automatically at this time. Also LOs have available a report they can access manually that will do a quick records check comparison and print out any players from this category. Then it is up to the LO to determine what to do with that info. It is not automatic that a LO will change a SL just because of what a player is able to do 20, 50, whatever miles away. Many factors go into that decision. APA just wants all LOs to "be consistent" here. NOTE - it is not to the LOs advantage to be thought of as "he always plays favorites" or as one who just doesn't care.
Think about it. The league is how the LO makes his living. It is his income every week! The vageries of the game are such that it can be very difficult to accurately know an opponents SL when you only see him/her two times every fourteen weeks. The LO has access to at least 14 weeks of scoresheets for comparison, so the LOs picture/opinion is going to be more comprehensive. Obviously this requires the score keepers to be paying attention, etc but I hope you can follow my line of reasoning. You players that keep score provide the LOs with the first line of defense vs the cheaters. We want you to get your six dollars worth, every match.
Sermon over. (and I have been retired from APA LO ownership for a month, just think how windy I could get if I was still on the job). LOL.

To further clarify the above example the Monday batting average of .250 would be calculated ONLY from the Monday games performance. The Wednesday average of .700 would only be calculated from the Wed games. The two different nights of performance numbers WOULD NOT BE COMBINED into one overall average. At least that's how they run the softball leagues around here. So a pool players scores from play in my league on Monday WOULD NOT BE COMBINED with scores achieved by play in another APA league franchise 40 miles away. Therefore the same player can be a SL 5 in my league on Monday and a SL 4 on Wednesday when he plays in that other part of town. And he is not cheating and neither LO is playing favorites.
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In my area we have between 9 and 12 teams on average for 8 and 9 ball. These teams generally remain the same for years. You probably play the same person 7-9 times a year. In larger leagues how often do you play the same person. Playing different combinations of people allows the scores to even out over the local league. In my area, if there are 80 people you could really only compare about 25 -30 to eachother due to who played who. If there were 160 people you could probably compare each person to about 80 due to who has played who. In a smaller group people are more likely to head towards the extremes. The guy who beats everyone is going to be a 7 regardless of how well he shoots. It is designed to be competitive at the local level so people have fun most of the time they are shooting. It is also a pyramid scheme deisgned to move people up so teams have to break up and get new players to join increasing the number of teams and the money paid in. Sorry just had to mention that.
 
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