Heavier cue for breaking?

StormHotRod300

StormHotRod300

BigSexy
Silver Member
Ok, i know this has been talked about before,

But has anyone ever found that going to a heavier cue allowed them to break better, and control the CB better?

I say this because a few months ago i bought a Action Era SP at a pool hall i frequent and ended up going with a 18oz instead of a 21oz that they had.

Well on a 7ft table which is what 99% of everything is played on in my general area, the cue is great, good CB speed and CB control.

But on a 9ft i find i have a hard time controlling the CB, on anything but a soft break. Which is not what i am looking for.

I heard that people tend to switch to the heavier cue for breaking because it slows down thier stroke and allows them to control the CB more.

I am just looking for what people have noticed when switching weights on thier break cue.

dave
 
Unless you are using 100% of your energy on your break stroke, I think the difference in weight would have minimal effect on the speed of your stroke. Over many years, I have learned that 19-19.5 is the weight I am most comfortable shooting with. I figure it stands to reason that the same weight break cue is going to be most comfortable weight in my hands for my break. So both of mine are the same weight.
Steve
 
StormHotRod300 said:
Ok, i know this has been talked about before,

But has anyone ever found that going to a heavier cue allowed them to break better, and control the CB better?

dave
Click to expand...

yes,,,because a heavy cue delivers a "heavier" cb. therefore you don't have to break as hard to get basically the same effect, and by breaking "slower" you have more cb control.

cue speed was for when everyone was breaking with a light mushy cue. back then, a lot of players were promoting breaking with a playing cue, which was essentially soft when compared to a specialized break cue.

nowadays cuebuilders are building their breakcues to hit harder, so you don't have to break with cue speed as you did before.
 
I think for me there was an age factor. Years ago I was quicker. I had a 17 oz. breaker and I really think that the quickness it allowed me gave more cue ball speed than the mass of a heavier cue stick would have given. Not long ago I realized I'm just not as quick as I use to be. (sound good ladies?:D ) So I started looking for a little heavier break cue. At first I almost went to far, looking at a couple of 21 oz. sticks. I could tell that they were not right for me. They were so heavy that I couldn't be quick enough. Ended up buying a 19 oz. X-Breaker. Just the right weight for me.

I'm a little weird though. To explain a little farther. You see me using the word "quick" above several times. What the heck does this have to do with it. Well it is because my bridge length is shorter than most of the break shot bridge lengths I see. About 6 inches I guess. With using such a short distance to get up to speed, quickness is an issue. So I had to find a balance between the loss of my quickness and making the stick so heavy that I couldn't be quick enough. I use the shorter bridge because it allows me to park the cue ball better. As soon as I lengthen it the cue ball starts traveling. I'm not recommending this method. I just know what works for me.

This is a good thread. I think this issue is a very personal one. I also think it is a very important one. Especially in 9 ball where the break means so much.
 
When given the choice, what do college baseball players use? Lighter aluminum or heavier wooden bats?

It's all about cue speed these days. At least that's the current philosophy, for now, anyway.
 
Lighter vs heavier

I find that a heavier cue puts too much on the cue ball and usually have to take a little off the stroke when using a 20-21oz cue.
Ive been actually using my playing cue to break. Get the best ball movement and I use a hard tip to play so I dont have the issue of mushroom. Its about 19.4. Watch Corey Duel Break, very soft.
 
I think lighter is better. But not too light. Maybe an ounce or two lighter than your playing cue.
 
Break cues ...

I like about a 20 oz to break with. I play with a 20.2 oz.. My break cue now is 19.5 oz.. And I have been told that I break harder on a 9 footer than a barbox.

I thought it was interesting to find out the Keith uses a 24 oz. cue to break.
He is getting up in the Benardo Chavez range with that .... lol
 
StormHotRod300 said:
Ok, i know this has been talked about before,

But has anyone ever found that going to a heavier cue allowed them to break better, and control the CB better?
Click to expand...

Yes. Lots of people. And lots of people have found the opposite as well.

Fred
 
I have found that a lighter cue just doesn't seem to produce the same powerful break for me even with a phenolic ferrule. I prefer between 20 and 21 oz. with a phenolic ferrule. It really explodes a rack.
 
I bought a 21 oz predator bk a few years back..I ended up taking the weight bolt out its like @ 18 1/2 oz breaks much better as a lighter stick...

I think you get more snap with a lighter cue..
 
It's probably not the weight of the cue, it's your technique. The extra couple of feet of distance on the larger table is showing you that you aren't striking the cueball squarely enough. It's very difficult to hit the cueball both square and fast.

You are probably not being smooth in accelerating the cue, which moves the tip off. The lighter cue may be easier to move off your point of aim depending on your technique. I would suggest relaxing the arm and shoulder and taking a light grip, and at the beginning of your final forward stroke, begin it smoothly and controlled, smoothly accelerating through the cueball to the final impact. A square hit is more important than maximum speed.

Chris
 
Gregg said:
When given the choice, what do college baseball players use? Lighter aluminum or heavier wooden bats?

It's all about cue speed these days. At least that's the current philosophy, for now, anyway.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind this current philosophy. Does an ounce or two make a significant difference in the weight of the cue/arm combination?
 
Gregg said:
When given the choice, what do college baseball players use? Lighter aluminum or heavier wooden bats?

It's all about cue speed these days. At least that's the current philosophy, for now, anyway.
Click to expand...

I don't think this is a valid comparison. The aluminum has some clear advantages that don't apply to pool. For starters, you need a quick swing in baseball, because you have to be able to read the pitch, make a decision, start your swing, and get the bat over the plate as the ball is arriving. If the swing is slow, the read and the decision has to be faster, otherwise you'll be swinging behind the ball. This timing is not a factor in pool.

Also, the aluminum bat compresses more at contact, giving a longer contact and an increased ball speed, almost like the strings of a tennis racket. This is not related to its weight.

As far as cue speed goes, a lighter cue will go faster given the same amount of work done by your arm. But it has the same momentum (according to newton) as a heavier and slower cue would, given the same amount of work done by your arm. And it's transfer of momentum that gets the cue ball moving. So the weight actually cancels out in the ball-speed equation. What's really important is the transfer. Given a fast-light and a slow-heavy stick with equal momentum, the one that transfers more of its momentum at contact is the one that hits the cue ball faster. This has to do a huge number of factors, including but not limited to cue contruction, taper, tip material, ferrule material, accuracy of tip placement on the cue ball, etc.

My take on it is that the slower/heavier stick will be easier to control, because it moves slower. The acceleration of a heavier stick, again given equal arm work, will be smoother and more controlled, in my opinion, because your arm won't be moving as quickly. But as far as stick momentum, stick mass cancels out of the equation, given equal work performed by the arm.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
I don't think this is a valid comparison. The aluminum has some clear advantages that don't apply to pool. For starters, you need a quick swing in baseball, because you have to be able to read the pitch, make a decision, start your swing, and get the bat over the plate as the ball is arriving. If the swing is slow, the read and the decision has to be faster, otherwise you'll be swinging behind the ball. This timing is not a factor in pool.

Also, the aluminum bat compresses more at contact, giving a longer contact and an increased ball speed, almost like the strings of a tennis racket. This is not related to its weight.

As far as cue speed goes, a lighter cue will go faster given the same amount of work done by your arm. But it has the same momentum (according to newton) as a heavier and slower cue would, given the same amount of work done by your arm. And it's transfer of momentum that gets the cue ball moving. So the weight actually cancels out in the ball-speed equation. What's really important is the transfer. Given a fast-light and a slow-heavy stick with equal momentum, the one that transfers more of its momentum at contact is the one that hits the cue ball faster. This has to do a huge number of factors, including but not limited to cue contruction, taper, tip material, ferrule material, accuracy of tip placement on the cue ball, etc.

My take on it is that the slower/heavier stick will be easier to control, because it moves slower. The acceleration of a heavier stick, again given equal arm work, will be smoother and more controlled, in my opinion, because your arm won't be moving as quickly. But as far as stick momentum, stick mass cancels out of the equation, given equal work performed by the arm.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

I am not going to argue, because I don't have any tangible information to refute this.

When I spoke with Mike Gulyassy at the Baby Pro Shop, who makes the Sledgehammer cue, he explained that most players like to use a break cue that is about an ounce lighter than their playing cue. This way it feels lighter in their hands, and they feel they can get more cue speed with it.

Take that for what its worth.
 
Gregg said:
It's all about cue speed these days. At least that's the current philosophy, for now, anyway.
Click to expand...
I'd have to agree most with Gregg on this. It is mostly about the cue speed that matters.

I understand Andrew's argument that the weight of the cue roughly cancels out provided the same amount of work done by your arm. However, we shouldn't forget that your arm and hand provide a good portion of the total mass of the cue at impact.

Going from a 20oz cue to a 16oz cue may increase the acceleration of the cue (and hence the velocity of the cue at impact) by 25%, but it decreases the total effective mass by less than 25%, if you take into account your hand and arm mass. Therefore, you should have more momentum with a lighter cue, provided you can increase the velocity of the cue proportionally to its weight.

Of course, there comes a point of diminishing returns, where you cannot accelerate a cue fast enough to make up for the loss of total effective mass, and thus your total momentum goes down. If you can make a 20oz cue travel at 20mph, i doubt you can make a 10oz cue travel at 40mph.

So in general, i'd say the faster you can stroke your cue the better. Control of the cue and whitey is enough story.
 
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Gregg said:
I am not going to argue, because I don't have any tangible information to refute this.

When I spoke with Mike Gulyassy at the Baby Pro Shop, who makes the Sledgehammer cue, he explained that most players like to use a break cue that is about an ounce lighter than their playing cue. This way it feels lighter in their hands, and they feel they can get more cue speed with it.

Take that for what its worth.
Click to expand...

And I'm not going to argue with you or Mike Gulyassy about what most players like in a break cue (coincidentally, I break with a Gulyassy sledgehammer). I only meant to debunk the myth that more cue speed necessarily leads to more ball speed. You didn't actually say that, but I've heard it implied and said frequently.

And if players feel they break better with the cue moving faster, more power to them, they should use a lighter cue. But I feel I break better when the cue doesn't have to move so fast.

-Andrew
 
jsp said:
Going from a 20oz cue to a 16oz cue may increase the acceleration of the cue (and hence the velocity of the cue at impact) by 20%, but it decreases the total effective mass by less than 20%, if you take into account your hand and arm mass. Therefore, you should have more momentum with a lighter cue, provided you can increase the velocity of the cue proportionally to its weight.
Click to expand...

Most of your post was on point, but what I've quoted above is incorrect, I think. Your arm mass is part of both equations; not just the momentum, but the acceleration as well. Momentum decreases by less than 20%, because the cue isn't all the mass involved, but by the same token acceleration increases by less than 20%, because the cue isn't all the mass involved.

There's no getting around it: momentum comes directly from work performed. If you perform 10 joules of work (pulling that number out of nowhere), then your cue/arm/kitchen-sink (whatever the system is you're performing work on) has gained 10 joules of momentum, and has the potential to perform 10 joules of work on the cue ball. How much of that work actually gets performed on the cue ball is different for any given cue, because of the efficiency of momentum transfer (which I think is what people talk about when they say a cue hits hard or soft) is involved.

-Andrew
 
jsp said:
I'd have to agree most with Gregg on this. It is mostly about the cue speed that matters.

I understand Andrew's argument that the weight of the cue roughly cancels out provided the same amount of work done by your arm. However, we shouldn't forget that your arm and hand provide a good portion of the total mass of the cue at impact.

Going from a 20oz cue to a 16oz cue may increase the acceleration of the cue (and hence the velocity of the cue at impact) by 25%, but it decreases the total effective mass by less than 25%, if you take into account your hand and arm mass. Therefore, you should have more momentum with a lighter cue, provided you can increase the velocity of the cue proportionally to its weight.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure you will have more momentum with a lighter cue. The extra speed should be inversely proportional to the weight. There is a minimal decrease in weight, so there should be a minimal increase in speed. Since momentum is mass times velocity, the momentum should be approximately the same, right?
 
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