Help Identify This Table:

[Rok]

Hello all!
First and foremost I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge my recent account approval! After researching for a site to obtain information, I came to a firm conclusion that AZ Billiards ruled! Much thanks AZ Billiards, as well as the members that reach out w fellowship.

Recently I acquired a vintage pool table I believe is an early model Brunswick. However, after dismantling I haven’t been able to confirm my thoughts. I am including various photos prior to, and after dismantling for review. I would like to point out that I observed two (2) sets of numbers, *5 0 4 6 3 along a portion of framing beneath a section of slate, and *176 viewed beneath a rail section. As for the metal tag along the top rail (Robt. A Wright & Company) gives no indication of a Brunswick table.. Could it be a Saunier Wilhem(?).

Any information on identifying the name brand, as well as availability on parts (caps that cover bolts along the side panels/rail skirts) and a web pocket will be greatly appreciated. Also, it would appear at some point the base was painted black. What’s your thoughts on having the paint striped and returned back to a stain and clear finish(?). I thank you in advance for your input -Rok

 

[garczar]

Probably made by B'wick for this store. They did that a lot. Looks like base has been painted.

 

[Rok]

Probably made by B'wick for this store. They did that a lot. Looks like base has been painted.

Any idea of age(?) it came w a really old cue rack.. has biulk collinder decal on it

 

[Rok]

It measures four ‘n a half by nine

 

[garczar]

contact ken at classic billiards.

 

[Rok]

will do, thanks!

 

[Renegade_56]

The name tag isn't necessarily helpful since back in the day many of the local companies who did recovering and repair also had their own badges they would use to replace the original in an attempt to advertise their service and get repeat work. Many big name manufacturers used a common size badge that was easily removable and the repair companies knew it. The good thing is that companies making cheap low quality tables would not spend the extra money to mark their tables. I've never seen a table with that style badge that wasn't a quality built table.

 

[Rok]

The name tag isn't necessarily helpful since back in the day many of the local companies who did recovering and repair also had their own badges they would use to replace the original in an attempt to advertise their service and get repeat work. Many big name manufacturers used a common size badge that was easily removable and the repair companies knew it. The good thing is that companies making cheap low quality tables would not spend the extra money to mark their tables. I've never seen a table with that style badge that wasn't a quality built table.

The name tag isn't necessarily helpful since back in the day many of the local companies who did recovering and repair also had their own badges they would use to replace the original in an attempt to advertise their service and get repeat work. Many big name manufacturers used a common size badge that was easily removable and the repair companies knew it. The good thing is that companies making cheap low quality tables would not spend the extra money to mark their tables. I've never seen a table with that style badge that wasn't a quality built table.

Thank you for responding! So that said, I might have a decent table. I tried to upload additional photos. however, the link would not accept. I dissembled to haul, and other than the number stamped along the frame supporting the slate (5 0 4 6 3) and 176 stamped along bottom rail, no other ID was available. The unit (framing as well as slate) is a monstrosity weight wise. I played the table before dissembled. Plays great! I would like to keep the tableMy concern is How far to go with restoration if it’s worthy(?). Also, if the few parts I see are needed are available(?). If not a Brunswick, I’m wondering if it is a sonier welhim(?)

 

[Renegade_56]

Thank you for responding! So that said, I might have a decent table. I tried to upload additional photos. however, the link would not accept. I dissembled to haul, and other than the number stamped along the frame supporting the slate (5 0 4 6 3) and 176 stamped along bottom rail, no other ID was available. The unit (framing as well as slate) is a monstrosity weight wise. I played the table before dissembled. Plays great! I would like to keep the tableMy concern is How far to go with restoration if it’s worthy(?). Also, if the few parts I see are needed are available(?). If not a Brunswick, I’m wondering if it is a sonier welhim(?)

The fact that the frame parts are even stamped with numbers to me is an indicator that it was built by a company that had it's shit together so to speak. It does to me have that Saunier Wilhelm look to it but it's hard to say. The hardware can sometimes be an indicator as to possible builders also. Things like rail bolts and such. Many companies built tables for other companies to badge and sell as their own. I know Victor, Saunier, and Brunswick did for sure.

 

[Rok]

The fact that the frame parts are even stamped with numbers to me is an indicator that it was built by a company that had it's shit together so to speak. It does to me have that Saunier Wilhelm look to it but it's hard to say. The hardware can sometimes be an indicator as to possible builders also. Things like rail bolts and such. Many companies built tables for other companies to badge and sell as their own. I know Victor, Saunier, and Brunswick did for sure.

I hear you on the stamped numbers, I was thinking on the same lines..Before I dismantled it I tried it out.. plays nice as all hell! The lady’s husband put a new cloth on it an a couple months later he checked out..I just hope I can get parts before I go hog wild on a restoration(?). From what I can see it only needs the side caps that cover bolts that anchor the rails. And one web pocket their dog chewed.. I know there’s not much chance of matching the original pockets so if it’s a good table I will replace all the pockets.. lastely it’s missing a few pearl diamonds along the rails. At some point I gotta figure the owner painted the legs and side skirts black and pasted decals along it. But when I disassemble it I can see areas that the owner couldn’t paint that appear to have been originally stained and clear coated.

 

[Rok]

I hear you on the stamped numbers, I was thinking on the same lines..Before I dismantled it I tried it out.. plays nice as all hell! The lady’s husband put a new cloth on it an a couple months later he checked out..I just hope I can get parts before I go hog wild on a restoration(?). From what I can see it only needs the side caps that cover bolts that anchor the rails. And one web pocket their dog chewed.. I know there’s not much chance of matching the original pockets so if it’s a good table I will replace all the pockets.. lastely it’s missing a few pearl diamonds along the rails. At some point I gotta figure the owner painted the legs and side skirts black and pasted decals along it. But when I disassemble it I can see areas that the owner couldn’t paint that appear to have been originally stained and clear coated.

The bolts used to anchor the rails in place were odd.. I thought I needed a special tool to fit the heads. I got lucky! The last wrench I tried did the job..

 

[Lawnboy77]

Saunier Wilhelm had very unique pocket shields, but unfortunately we can’t see those. My bet is that it is an SW from the 30s.
As far as worth restoring? That just depends on the person. If it were me, the table looks clean as is, so I think I’d just work on the function aspect, have a good mech overhaul the rails and tighten pockets, refinish the beautiful walnut rails and call it a day.

 

[Lawnboy77]

I think this is your table, Saunier Wilhelm restored with some changes, but matches yours very closely. Here is a link to some info on it. A really good, solid table from my favorite time period.

Product Page | PoolTableRestoration

www.pooltablerestoration.net

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rok]

Saunier Wilhelm had very unique pocket shields, but unfortunately we can’t see those. My bet is that it is an SW from the 30s.
As far as worth restoring? That just depends on the person. If it were me, the table looks clean as is, so I think I’d just work on the function aspect, have a good mech overhaul the rails and tighten pockets, refinish the beautiful walnut rails and call it a day.

Thanks for the input! SW was a great table. I was limited on amount of pics I could upload. The table is dismantled now. Nonetheless, if I take a couple close up picks of the pockets and post, would you be able to comment further(?). Also, for the most part I am in agreement w your outlook. The only thing that bugs me is the legs and skirts were painted black w decals pasted on them. If I strip it I have a friend (real pro) that will finish it as close as anyone can to it’s natural finish. It will cost, but it will rid the black base w Hawaiian decals for good. Let me know your thoughts.. also if a close up picture of the pockets will confirm SW.. thanks again -Rok

 

[Lawnboy77]

Thanks for the input! SW was a great table. I was limited on amount of pics I could upload. The table is dismantled now. Nonetheless, if I take a couple close up picks of the pockets and post, would you be able to comment further(?). Also, for the most part I am in agreement w your outlook. The only thing that bugs me is the legs and skirts were painted black w decals pasted on them. If I strip it I have a friend (real pro) that will finish it as close as anyone can to it’s natural finish. It will cost, but it will rid the black base w Hawaiian decals for good. Let me know your thoughts.. also if a close up picture of the pockets will confirm SW.. thanks again -Rok

I totally agree! You and I are on the same page, get rid of tacky decals for sure. It would be great if you could upgrade to nice walnut, or mahogany veneer for the base. I’m not sure what the cost would be though, a little afraid to even ask. That table would probably never be worth what goes in for a real good restore, but who cares. A beautiful old classic stays in the family anyway. So I guess I’m changing my mind, I’m in for the full restore now. Lol

 

[Lawnboy77]

Yeah if those pocket shields are what I typically see with SW I think we can make a 100% positive ID. Those were really cool shields, very much Art Deco. This table may precede the Art Deco era of pool tables though, even if those shields aren’t present, I’d still call it a SW. Brunswick still made a couple of models in the 20’s that were very close as well. It’s kind of mute point…the table is quality no matter the maker.

 

[Rok]

I totally agree! You and I are on the same page, get rid of tacky decals for sure. It would be great if you could upgrade to nice walnut, or mahogany veneer for the base. I’m not sure what the cost would be though, a little afraid to even ask. That table would probably never be worth what goes in for a real good restore, but who cares. A beautiful old classic stays in the family anyway. So I guess I’m changing my mind, I’m in for the full restore now.

Yeah if those pocket shields are what I typically see with SW I think we can make a 100% positive ID. Those were really cool shields, very much Art Deco. This table may precede the Art Deco era of pool tables though, even if those shields aren’t present, I’d still call it a SW. Brunswick still made a couple of models in the 20’s that were very close as well. It’s kind of mute point…the table is quality no matter the maker.

I caught up w the guy I have in mind to refinish the legs ‘n side skirts on my table. He told me if I strip, and buy all material, he would do the art work (refinish) for an antique Balke Collender cue rack I got w the table. I don’t know value of the cue rack, it’s in great shape w pearl inlets but it sounds good to me(?)

 

[Ssonerai]

if i was lucky enough to get something that good original condition, don't think i'd touch it.
Is there something wrong we are not seeing?

smt

PS, it is yours, not arguing with personal choice.
I just enjoy it when something that old makes it this far in good shape.

 

[Rok]

Thank you! I love old as well.. Nothing wrong w the cue rack at all.. it is 110% old Brunswick. We are 99.99% certain the table it came with is SW. I happen to have a vintage SW cue rack, and matching ball rack. I normally keep all vintage items. Nonetheless, I decided to restore the SW due to the base being painted black. I know the type of work the guy is capable of; so to spare digging into my lead box, unless I’m miss judging value of the cue stick rack, I figure to benefit from the trade. Am I missing anything(?)