help with a bank shot...

[kaver22]

This morning I was trying to work on this bank shot (shown in the first layout below).

http://pool.bz/P/?@1HBRV1PNqk1cBRV2cbAa1cbrdzc1kNqk1kDmR1kBYMzc@

But that's not what the ball is doing. For some reason it's coming off the rail at a MUCH smaller angle; almost straight off the rail and somehow works it's way back up the table...in the opposite direction it was originally going.

http://pool.bz/P/?@1HBRV1PNqk1cBRV2cbAO1cbYo2cHGT1kNqk1kDmR1kBYMzc@


At first I thought maybe I was putting weird english on the cue ball and that was causing the object ball to roll weird. So I tried putting extreme english - left, right, top, bottom - on the CB just to see what would happen with only minor change in the path of the OB. I feel like this shouldn't be such a difficult shot. Is there something I am not taking into account? Can I blame this one on the table? Or the chalk? Or maybe the table is just haunted?

Any thoughts?

Thanks!!

 

[smmendes]

It´s because of the cue ball´s cut angle (cue ball and object ball direction) - as you can see the object ball has left spin on it.

It´s a situation with low probability which doesn't come up often in a game (you could cut it to the corner or middle or bank it, to the middle).

Try it with a stun-roll with half a tip of outside english (40% for half a ball), a softer speed and a bit of aiming adjustment...

 

[MOJOE]

You will get reverse off the 2nd rail especially if you are hitting it firm. If you are playing on a table with cushions similar to a Diamond, the balls often will reverse with a firm stroke. You are also putting CIT (collision induced throw) on the OB by coming across it, just like the previous poster said.

A couple of things you may want to try.. Banks are a ton of feel but you mush understand how balls react. Hit it easier, try using low and or outside (left) in this case, overcutting the bank with stun which will also shorten up on rebound..

Get John Brumback's bank DVD.. IT will save you years of frustration.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I couldn't see the shot layout, but can guess what's happening. The other posters gave good advice, so I'll just add this:

As smmendes and MOJOE said, the bank angle shortens because of spin on the object ball, either from cutting across the face of the ball or from spinning the CB or from hitting the rail. All of these collisions put spin on the OB, but the most spin by far is added by collision with the rail (because rail/ball friction is so much more than ball/ball friction), especially on hard-hit shots - this is why the OB's bank path will shorten dramatically off the second rail on "z" banks.

This spin-off-the-rail reverse-direction effect can come in handy for shots like the "cross the side pocket" shot that comes up in bank games.

pj
chgo

 

[Banks]

As smmendes and MOJOE said, the bank angle shortens because of spin on the object ball, either from cutting across the face of the ball or from spinning the CB or from hitting the rail. All of these collisions put spin on the OB, but the most spin by far is added by collision with the rail, especially on hard-hit shots - this is why the OB's bank path will shorten dramatically off the second rail on "z" banks.

This spin-off-the-rail reverse-direction effect can come in handy for shots like the "cross the side pocket" shot that comes up in bank games.

Definitely sounds like he's cutting away from his bank.

Try using draw, as center and top are going to have the most pronounced affect on CIS(collision-induced spin). CIS: If you cut across the ball to the left, it will put a little left spin on the ball.

Also, if you're cutting away from the angle, you'll either want to: hit it slower, cut it a tiny bit more, or use just a little spin(ie - left spin if banking to the right).

If none of that works, trying using MS Paint to draw us a sketch of your shot. :thumbup:

 

[bbb]

You will get reverse off the 2nd rail especially if you are hitting it firm. If you are playing on a table with cushions similar to a Diamond, the balls often will reverse with a firm stroke. You are also putting CIT (collision induced throw) on the OB by coming across it, just like the previous poster said.

A couple of things you may want to try.. Banks are a ton of feel but you mush understand how balls react. Hit it easier, try using low and or outside (left) in this case, overcutting the bank with stun which will also shorten up on rebound..

Get John Brumback's bank DVD.. IT will save you years of frustration.

another way to make the bank is aim a 1/4 diamond lower to compensate the shorter rebound angle on cut banks
as explained above the cut causes spin
get freddy the beards books/dvd also
with john brumback and freddy the beards stuff you shorten your learning curve tremendously
btw
they complement each other and having both is very beneficial

 

[kaver22]

Great advice. I'll play around with these tips later today and see how it works out. The ball/rail friction thing makes sense. After posting this thread I did go back down and try shooting at different speeds and that had a significant effect on the angle!

Thanks everyone!

 

[kaver22]

Thanks again everyone! The best approach seemed to be a combo of adjusting the angle and speed. I spent almost an hour trying out different angle/speed combinations. It surprised me how much the speed matters. I definitely need to put in some more practice but at least now I know what factors I can adjust.

In the illustrations I left out the other balls on the table so the bank shot was actually the best option. I also think they're more fun.

I used to be better at bank shots. I wondered why all of a sudden not only could I not make one but I was way off. Then I remembered that I had just recently made adjustments to my head alignment to fix my problem of generally shooting too far to the right, which would have been perfect for this shot. I tried out some of these bank shots with my old head position and got almost every one in!

Apparently I was compensating for that extra spin off the cushion without realizing it. My old bad alignment was (in general) good for the bank shots and bad for the cut shots. Now I need to correct for my correction! Good thing pool is one of those things I really don't mind putting hours of work in to every day! :grin: