How and Does, Matchroom Allocate Spots to Countries for the World Nine Ball Championships...?

[The_JV]

I was going to post this question on their FB page but figured the odds of getting a candid reply were slim to none. Thought maybe someone here may have some insight.

The Canadian Open Championships are opening up for registration (somewhat). However beyond the annual drama of a host location. The organizing body (CBSA) has stated that they were not allotted spots in the 9 ball World Championships. Of course our two perennial representatives (Alex & Johnny) will most likely get their spots via the MR point rankings.

Now I don't understand why we wouldn't want to crown a reigning national champ regardless of MR's perception of the value of that player on the world stage. However it is disheartening to hear that earning that title "no longer" grants the individual a chance to stand on the main table at the end of the World's. I quoted "no longer" because in the recent past, it has.

I get that there's >170 countries on the planet and MR has to draw a line somewhere. I'm just wondering how that decision is made, and how the hell can it be reverse....

 

[justnum]

I was going to post this question on their FB page but figured the odds of getting a candid reply were slim to none. Thought maybe someone here may have some insight.

The Canadian Open Championships are opening up for registration (somewhat). However beyond the annual drama of a host location. The organizing body (CBSA) has stated that they were not allotted spots in the 9 ball World Championships. Of course our two perennial representatives (Alex & Johnny) will most likely get their spots via the MR point rankings.

Now I don't understand why we wouldn't want to crown a reigning national champ regardless of MR's perception of the value of that player on the world stage. However it is disheartening to hear that earning that title "no longer" grants the individual a chance to stand on the main table at the end of the World's. I quoted "no longer" because in the recent past, it has.

I get that there's >170 countries on the planet and MR has to draw a line somewhere. I'm just wondering how that decision is made, and how the hell can it be reverse....

Is there an official partnership with CBSA?

Matchrooms been busy. It would help if the CBSA reached out first.

 

[MattPoland]

This is what they did in 2022. I can’t find what they did for 2023.

• 50 World Pool-Billiard Association Invites
• 1-40 ranked players on Nineball World Rankings not otherwise invited by WPA
• 15 WPA Women Allocations
• Up to 20 further WPA Allocations
• Top 16 2021 World Pool Championship
• Top 16 2021 US Open Pool Championship
• WPA Ranking below 32
• Matchroom Invitations

You’ll notice that no regional member associations were listed then. WPA might have based their invites off of reaching out to regional members. But I think it’s important to keep in mind there’s opportunity to engage in international competition to earn a merit-based spot. It is a World Championship not the World Cup of Pool. As a matter of priority you want the best in the world there more so than you want the widest geographical representation.

 

[The_JV]

This is what they did in 2022. I can’t find what they did for 2023.

• 50 World Pool-Billiard Association Invites
• 1-40 ranked players on Nineball World Rankings not otherwise invited by WPA
• 15 WPA Women Allocations
• Up to 20 further WPA Allocations
• Top 16 2021 World Pool Championship
• Top 16 2021 US Open Pool Championship
• WPA Ranking below 32
• Matchroom Invitations

Thanks Matt.

You’ll notice that no regional member associations were listed then. WPA might have based their invites off of reaching out to regional members. But I think it’s important to keep in mind there’s opportunity to engage in international competition to earn a merit-based spot.

Unfortunately there are zero such opportunities in Canada. At least none that I'm aware of.

It is a World Championship not the World Cup of Pool. As a matter of priority you want the best in the world there more so than you want the widest geographical representation.

I actually don't agree with that. I think all nations should be given an opportunity to present their best attempt at winning a "world championship". If that means qualification outside of the main event, then so be it. ...and I mean the nation selected representatives must also endure another "Dead Money" event to get into the main event. How can you consider it an actual **"World"** championship if you don't provide an avenue for all nations to compete. However as it stands, I would have to travel to other nations to gather points in their MR sanctioned events to even be on the radar.

So one of two things has to happen for players not on the MR rankings to make it to the "World Championships".

1. Matchroom puts qualifying events in all countries
2. Individuals in nations without MR qualifying events, travel elsewhere to gather points to represent their nation not on MR's radar

Clearly, #1 isn't going to happen, and I would never expect such an absurd effort on MR's part. So that leaves us with #2. Which in my humble opinion isn't what should drive a "world" championship. Clearly MR isn't concerned about the "world" aspect and just wants the strongest field they can muster within their world (invested MR player assets). The flag those players carry means nothing to the organizer. I can't really blame them. It is the smarter business move. Just disheartening for budding world beaters that have lives outside of pool and can't prance around the continent hoping to gather enough points.

Maybe I should add that I'm only focusing on the "world championship" MR has claimed the rights to. The moment you add "world" to the title of your event. I believe you should make it attainable to the world. I was all on board with Matchroom becoming the guiding light for pool in the years to come. However with great power comes great responsibility.

The World Cup is just an invitational exhibition, imo.

 

[MattPoland]

Thanks Matt.

Unfortunately there are zero such opportunities in Canada. At least none that I'm aware of.

I actually don't agree with that. I think all nations should be given an opportunity to present their best attempt at winning a "world championship". If that means qualification outside of the main event, then so be it. ...and I mean the nation selected representatives must also endure another "Dead Money" event to get into the main event. How can you consider it an actual **"World"** championship if you don't provide an avenue for all nations to compete. However as it stands, I would have to travel to other nations to gather points in their MR sanctioned events to even be on the radar.

So one of two things has to happen for players not on the MR rankings to make it to the "World Championships".

1. Matchroom puts qualifying events in all countries
2. Individuals in nations without MR qualifying events, travel elsewhere to gather points to represent their nation not on MR's radar

Clearly, #1 isn't going to happen, and I would never expect such an absurd effort on MR's part. So that leaves us with #2. Which in my humble opinion isn't what should drive a "world" championship. Clearly MR isn't concerned about the "world" aspect and just wants the strongest field they can muster within their world (invested MR player assets). The flag those players carry means nothing to the organizer. I can't really blame them. It is the smarter business move. Just disheartening for budding world beaters that have lives outside of pool and can't prance around the continent hoping to gather enough points.

Maybe I should add that I'm only focusing on the "world championship" MR has claimed the rights to. The moment you add "world" to the title of your event. I believe you should make it attainable to the world. I was all on board with Matchroom becoming the guiding light for pool in the years to come. However with great power comes great responsibility.

The World Cup is just an invitational exhibition, imo.

Poland has about the same population as Canada and also has a governing body for pool. Meanwhile Sniegocki, Zielinski, Batkowski, Maciol, Szewczyk, Jusczyszyn, Skoneczky, Babica, and Kaplan all competed in the world championships. Did they get there because they played exclusively inside Poland and Matchroom extended 9 invites for the PBSA to decide? No. They earned their merit by travelling the world outside Poland and playing against international competition all over the globe whether climbing the Matchroom World Nineball Tour ranking ladder or by climbing the WPA World Ranking list.

The world championship is certainly an invitational. What makes it a world championship and not an exhibition is that it's crowning a world champion by order of merit. What merit is there to inviting players, not because they've made accomplishments on the international stage, but just because they live within a territory and you're giving each territory a few names to put forth? That would shove forward so many dead money entries in place of other merit-worthy entries. They already do something like that when they put forward X number of woman players. While that's not entirely merit-worthy to me at least it's on a criteria of two categories: men and women.

Imagine doing that by country. There's like 193 countries in the world. The WPA has like 100 member countries. Even if the cutoff was 40 million in population (just bigger than Poland and Canada), we're talking 36 counties. If you staged the world championship by trying to force barely merit-worthy representation from each of those countries you'd no longer have a real world championship. You'd have something akin to the World Cup of Pool. You'd have an exhibition.

 

[MattPoland]

It's also interesting to think about what can happen in Canada. Predator had the Canada Open in 2022 which was a WPA sanctioned event and would contribute to earning WPA ranking points. I don't know a lot about the events in Canada. Even looking at the CBSA website, they have no upcoming events listed. Surely for it to matter to Matchroom, it would have to be 9-ball. Oceania worked with Matchroom to get their events into a "tour" of ranking events. I don't see why the CBSA can't reach out to Matchroom and try to do the same if they have a structure of 9-ball events that are affiliated with the WNT and get ranking points.

 

[Swighey]

If the WPA, as the sole recognized authority on the game, had done its job then the World Championship would have stayed on television with decent payouts and some kind of global recognition. Matchroom picked up the pieces and even then tried to involve the WPA but.....

The WPA did have some kind of regional qualification system, which is all well and good only until a qualifier can't actually afford to travel to the World Championship given the payouts of their likely finishing positions.

The game is still very much in its infancy and only slightly further down the road than it was 20 years ago. Having said that, commercially it's in the best place it's ever been. Matchroom actually has a history of making its "world championships" representative geographically so let's give it time - if it gets it right the proof will be in the pudding, if it doesn't it will likely be because pool after all doesn't have the commercial legs we all hope it does. I hope for the former, particularly as MR stated pretty early on that its intention was for the World Championship to be zero fee entry and based mostly on qualification.

Meanwhile, if the winner of the Canadian Open believes they should be on the world stage but haven't been noticed I would be very surprised if a "Canadian Open Champion" couldn't muster at least some sponsorship to head south to the US Open and/or other high profile events.

 

[CallShotCowboy]

Poland has about the same population as Canada and also has a governing body for pool. Meanwhile Sniegocki, Zielinski, Batkowski, Maciol, Szewczyk, Jusczyszyn, Skoneczky, Babica, and Kaplan all competed in the world championships. Did they get there because they played exclusively inside Poland and Matchroom extended 9 invites for the PBSA to decide? No. They earned their merit by travelling the world outside Poland and playing against international competition all over the globe whether climbing the Matchroom World Nineball Tour ranking ladder or by climbing the WPA World Ranking list.

The difference here is that Poland as a National Governing Body provides governmental stipends for those players to develop, travel and compete, much like the Netherlands, and Germany. Those players can breakeven in events and are still getting paid through the government because of the IOC's recognition of the sport.

As MR continues to shun the WPA it also runs the risk of losing the infrastructuce of which most of the great Europeans have developed into the star of the sport that they are...

 

[The_JV]

Poland has about the same population as Canada and also has a governing body for pool. Meanwhile Sniegocki, Zielinski, Batkowski, Maciol, Szewczyk, Jusczyszyn, Skoneczky, Babica, and Kaplan all competed in the world championships. Did they get there because they played exclusively inside Poland and Matchroom extended 9 invites for the PBSA to decide? No. They earned their merit by travelling the world outside Poland and playing against international competition all over the globe whether climbing the Matchroom World Nineball Tour ranking ladder or by climbing the WPA World Ranking list.

Population has zero to do with it. Proximity to ranking events sure does. Bet it's nice to have one in your backyard and live in proximity of MR's focus...lol. However having a local ranking event is chicken vs egg argument. There are a few within 12hrs of Toronto, in the States. Regardless, you seem to be under the impression that I want a handout for a potential Canadian champ. However I don't... I'd like re-designation of a few of those DeadMoney positions in the event to be reserved for any nation's champ. Let them sort out who who gets those spots prior to the main event. This is no different then soccer's World Cup.

The world championship is certainly an invitational. What makes it a world championship and not an exhibition is that it's crowning a world champion by order of merit. What merit is there to inviting players, not because they've made accomplishments on the international stage, but just because they live within a territory and you're giving each territory a few names to put forth?

Again, I think you may have glazed over the post you quoted. I don't think nations should be directly invited. I think there should be spots reserved for qualifying nations that beat other nations to be there.

Imagine doing that by country. There's like 193 countries in the world. The WPA has like 100 member countries. Even if the cutoff was 40 million in population (just bigger than Poland and Canada), we're talking 36 counties. If you staged the world championship by trying to force barely merit-worthy representation from each of those countries you'd no longer have a real world championship. You'd have something akin to the World Cup of Pool. You'd have an exhibition.

Re-read my posts/responses.

 

[MattPoland]

The difference here is that Poland as a National Governing Body provides governmental stipends for those players to develop, travel and compete, much like the Netherlands, and Germany. Those players can breakeven in events and are still getting paid through the government because of the IOC's recognition of the sport.

As MR continues to shun the WPA it also runs the risk of losing the infrastructuce of which most of the great Europeans have developed into the star of the sport that they are...

That's true. But I think of it as a mutual shunning unless Barry was disingenuous. Matchroom wanted their ranking to be the official 9-ball ranking. Granted WPA doesn't do discipline-specific rankings. I can see both sides. Official WPA recognition gives Matchroom's WNT some true significance as it builds up to the World Championship, who gets invites, and seeding. Otherwise as it stands you have two lists. I kinda wished WPA wouldn't just given Matchroom this one. It only would've affected "Nineball." But I can see how WPA might want to stay "promoter agnostic" in terms of rankings even if Matchroom is approaching their rankings in an inclusive manner.

At the same time, I can see how Matchroom developed so much structure so fast that I've personally given up on the idea WPA gives value in terms of scheduling, sanctioning, drug testing, date protection, etc. There's certainly value in trying to get Matchroom and Predator to cooperate. There's just too many events to bother given that venue logistics isn't a slam dunk.

So that does take it down to what you're talking about. If they stayed together, those players benefiting from governmental support due to participation in officially sanctioned sporting activities would still be in good standing to continue receiving financial support. Since they're diverging, I also worry about the ramifications of this rift. Especially if it eventually leads to Matchroom losing the world championship and hosting their own unsanctioned world championship and federation players being barred from playing in the Matchroom structure. And I assume Canada doesn't provide governmental support either way. If so, that's a harsh reality of pool. There's haves and have nots. While I can see your perspective being more "fair", I'm inclined to accept the world isn't fair and would prefer to see the world championship contested by the most talented field that possibly can be assembled over fairness.

 

[The_JV]

It's also interesting to think about what can happen in Canada. Predator had the Canada Open in 2022 which was a WPA sanctioned event and would contribute to earning WPA ranking points.

That event didn't happen due to a lack of interest. The location was a ridiculous choice North of Calgary. Not sure how that decision was made, but it was doomed before it hit the ground.

I don't know a lot about the events in Canada. Even looking at the CBSA website, they have no upcoming events listed. Surely for it to matter to Matchroom, it would have to be 9-ball. Oceania worked with Matchroom to get their events into a "tour" of ranking events. I don't see why the CBSA can't reach out to Matchroom and try to do the same if they have a structure of 9-ball events that are affiliated with the WNT and get ranking points.

I agree with you completely... I don't know what effort or potential lack there of the CBSA had made with MR. That's why I would never expect MR to reserve spots specifically for Canada.

 

[MattPoland]

Population has zero to do with it. Proximity to ranking events sure does. Bet it's nice to have one in your backyard and live in proximity of MR's focus...lol. However having a local ranking event is chicken vs egg argument. There are a few within 12hrs of Toronto, in the States. Regardless, you seem to be under the impression that I want a handout for a potential Canadian champ. However I don't... I'd like re-designation of a few of those DeadMoney positions in the event to be reserved for any nation's champ. Let them sort out who who gets those spots prior to the main event. This is no different then soccer's World Cup.

Again, I think you may have glazed over the post you quoted. I don't think nations should be directly invited. I think there should be spots reserved for qualifying nations that beat other nations to be there.

Re-read my posts/responses.

It would be nice to see how 2023 selection worked. I want to think it was posted but can't find it. But it does look like WPA has a large slice of "open invites" that can lead to dead money entrants. Makes me think perhaps in terms of the getting them in, that's an opportunity to CBSA to reach out to WPA moreso than reaching out to Matchroom.

 

[The_JV]

And I assume Canada doesn't provide governmental support either way. If so, that's a harsh reality of pool. There's haves and have nots.

Yep, organized pool in Canada really sucks... I don't want or expect handouts. Just frustrated...

While I can see your perspective being more "fair", I'm inclined to accept the world isn't fair and would prefer to see the world championship contested by the most talented field that possibly can be assembled over fairness.

Looks like we want the same thing. The difference it seems is that your married to the notion that MR's rankings are the end all to be all of who's the most talented. I don't completely disagree with that. However I just also believe that if your going to pretend that your event is a "world" championship and the best player has won it. Then you should crack the door to outliers who aren't swimming in your specific pool.

 

[The_JV]

Makes me think perhaps in terms of the getting them in, that's an opportunity to CBSA to reach out to WPA moreso than reaching out to Matchroom.

Completely agree... I don't necessarily fault MR.

The CBSA needs to start a dialogue with MR. Not the other way around. However this would only be for obtaining a ranking event. As we all know that MR's version of the world championship has no focus on the world competing. Just the best players under their umbrella.

 

[Swighey]

Matchroom wanted their ranking to be the official 9-ball ranking. Granted WPA doesn't do discipline-specific rankings.

Matchroom rankings have become the defacto 9 ball rankings anyway. I'm surprised (but not really, actually not at all) that the WPA didn't embrace this. The WPA's "all around" rankings would actually have more weight if they recognized MR's rankings for 9 ball. Not rocket science and never has been.

 

[Vahmurka]

Real sports have proper structure. They have an international governing body, and regional/national bodies, respectfully. National governing bodies are recognized by the sporting committee.
Yes WPA could have performed better, there were many things to improve. Yet it is the only such recognized body for pool (hence it is World Pool Association). There were regional quotas, and even those countries where players did not earn places on merit could have a representative at main events. Take it like skiers from Kenya at the winter Olympic games, or team Jamaica in bobsleigh. Zero chance at performing at a decent level but still represented.

Opposed to that, there is a world of commercial sport, run solely by the promoters who could not care less about all this stuff, geography, medals, etc. Their business is supposed to bring them profit, otherwise why run it? NHL, NBA and most of other American leagues, for example. Matchroom is the same piece of cake. They won't care about a Canadian who deserved playing at the WPC because he is the best player in his region (well, suppose he is the best apart from Alex and John). At the same time a promoter could leave wild cards or invites for any kind of a British player they want. A snooker representative of lower rankings, a star very well past his prime, and so on. Only because they feel this could boost interest among local viewers. And they don't care about the rest of the world there. Welcome to new reality of 9-ball pool.

All that said, if you hope to earn places through any kind of structure, you'd better stick to 10-ball now.

 

[The_JV]

Opposed to that, there is a world of commercial sport, run solely by the promoters who could not care less about all this stuff, geography, medals, etc. Their business is supposed to bring them profit, otherwise why run it? NHL, NBA and most of other American leagues, for example. Matchroom is the same piece of cake. They won't care about a Canadian who deserved playing at the WPC because he is the best player in his region (well, suppose he is the best apart from Alex and John).

Nailed it... Some may choose to consider MR's version of the World Championship an actual "world" championship, but it's really not. Not in the global (world) scale. It's just a promotion with a means to an end, and it's not to determine who the best is, but to generate margin. They don't want a Filler, Gorst or FSR win. They want another Soufi

Alex and John are active in the MR system and will get their spots regardless. Good on them, they earned it. ...the Matchroom way

 

[Vahmurka]

It's just a promotion with a means to an end, and it's not to determine who the best is, but to generate margin. They don't want a Filler, Gorst or FSR win. They want another Soufi

Not necessarily top gun wins are not welcome in this system. After all, it is based on top performances, otherwise becomes hardly watchable and not appealing to the audience. But a Cinderella story definitely stirs the pot Some time ago it was Fallon Sherrock in darts doing that for Matchroom, when she got past two men at the PDC world championship. "Fallon smashes the glass ceiling" was the headline throughout the year, using The Queen of Alexandra Palace here and there, and rightly so.
But now Fallon is not the Queen as there is Beau Greaves all of a sudden. Btw, women Matchplay is just around the corner

 

[penguin]

I'm just wondering how that decision is made

Politics and favoritism.

 

[justnum]

Botswanna is having issues. Any legal people understand how membership activity matters?