How Do I Improve My Stroke?

N

Native

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Hey guys,

I was practicing at a local tourney with a buddy of mine last night on a triple shimmed pocket table where you had to hit pretty much the dead center of the pocket or be rejected out =P

It's really a great way to see how solid your fundamentals are - so, for the most part when I consciously told myself to relax my muscle, loosen my grip a lot, and follow through my shots dropped but ever so often I noticed that on long straight shots my shots wouldn't drop so I think my stroke is off a little.

I know you can test your stroke, and straighten it with a beer bottle, felt/wood rail straight line, and shoot the ball from the spot up the table to see if it hits your cue tip on it's return path.

My question is - if I do find an imperfection in my stroke - how do I fix it?
 
Native said:
Hey guys,

I was practicing at a local tourney with a buddy of mine last night on a triple shimmed pocket table where you had to hit pretty much the dead center of the pocket or be rejected out =P

It's really a great way to see how solid your fundamentals are - so, for the most part when I consciously told myself to relax my muscle, loosen my grip a lot, and follow through my shots dropped but ever so often I noticed that on long straight shots my shots wouldn't drop so I think my stroke is off a little.

I know you can test your stroke, and straighten it with a beer bottle, felt/wood rail straight line, and shoot the ball from the spot up the table to see if it hits your cue tip on it's return path.

My question is - if I do find an imperfection in my stroke - how do I fix it?
Click to expand...

Practice. It's a pretty universal answer. Find out what may be causing the issue, either through an instructor or just trying small changes on your own. The other thing, no-one makes ever shot, especially long straight shots on tight pockets. "every so often" missing those is not unusual. Unless you are a robot, your shot will be a bit different every time you shoot, sometimes just enough to miss.
 
Buy Mark Wilson's book. Get a lesson from a good stroke teacher such as Mark, Jerry Brieseth, Scott Lee, Randy G, Stevie Moore or Stan Shuffett (I'm sure there are many others). Practice, practice, practice.
 
Thanks Hang -

So basically my stroke will work itself out then?

Like if I consistently following through and end up with my tip on the right side of the straight line then practicing my stroke until it consistently follows that straight line will work out the kinks?

EDIT: After watching my grip hand when stroking - I noticed that as I finish my stroke I move my wrist just out of line with my stroke at the finish (basically just before the point where I'd make contact with the CB)
 
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Match your bridge length to your cues pivot point

Every cue has a different pivot point. Usually between like 6" to 14".
By playing with a bridge length that's substantially different that your pivot point, these stroke issues are amplified. If you play with a matched stroke length, it almost won't matter if your delivery is clean, or crooked. The only thing that would change would be your position basically.

Here's a rough idea of my understanding of different cues pivot points. Again, just a really rough idea. There's a chart that shows each cue exactly and I'm sure that someone will post it in this thread.

Here's my estimates, could be off a little.
Regular Maple shafts have like a 6" pivot point.
If you have an ivory ferule, I'd say like 4" pivot point.
Most LD shafts have around 10"-12" pivot point.
Ultra low deflection LD shafts like the predator Z have around 14" pivot point.

I'm not suggesting that it's a great idea to play with a 14" bridge length, but I would favor a longer bridge with a Z shaft...as long as I felt comfortable...and likewise, if playing with a maple or especially a maple with ivory ferule...I'd keep my bridge almost uncomfortably short, so as to match the cue more closely.

Honestly, the stroke comes with years of practice, you'd break a lot of beer bottles trying to shorten your learning curve, that's why your time is better spent matching your pivot point, so that it's ALMOST irrelevant whether you stroke it clean or crooked.

Best advice on the stroke is: put it in smooth and follow thru with out moving anything but your elbow. Have a friend stand next to you and hold his hand right above your head when you shoot med firm shots. If when you shoot, you feel his hand touch your head...your popping up on your shots. That's the most common error that even experienced players to semi pros deal with. It will never go away. You'll always have to check for it, and keep holding yourself accountable. We all do it.
 
8onthebreak said:
Every cue has a different pivot point. Usually between like 6" to 14".
By playing with a bridge length that's substantially different that your pivot point, these stroke issues are amplified. If you play with a matched stroke length, it almost won't matter if your delivery is clean, or crooked. The only thing that would change would be your position basically.

Here's a rough idea of my understanding of different cues pivot points. Again, just a really rough idea. There's a chart that shows each cue exactly and I'm sure that someone will post it in this thread.

Here's my estimates, could be off a little.
Regular Maple shafts have like a 6" pivot point.
If you have an ivory ferule, I'd say like 4" pivot point.
Most LD shafts have around 10"-12" pivot point.
Ultra low deflection LD shafts like the predator Z have around 14" pivot point.

I'm not suggesting that it's a great idea to play with a 14" bridge length, but I would favor a longer bridge with a Z shaft...as long as I felt comfortable...and likewise, if playing with a maple or especially a maple with ivory ferule...I'd keep my bridge almost uncomfortably short, so as to match the cue more closely.

Honestly, the stroke comes with years of practice, you'd break a lot of beer bottles trying to shorten your learning curve, that's why your time is better spent matching your pivot point, so that it's ALMOST irrelevant whether you stroke it clean or crooked.

Best advice on the stroke is: put it in smooth and follow thru with out moving anything but your elbow. Have a friend stand next to you and hold his hand right above your head when you shoot med firm shots. If when you shoot, you feel his hand touch your head...your popping up on your shots. That's the most common error that even experienced players to semi pros deal with. It will never go away. You'll always have to check for it, and keep holding yourself accountable. We all do it.
Click to expand...

The pivot on the cue I use is actually around 6 3/4" which is my natural bridge length - unless I'm trying to up my power on a draw shot or something to that effect.

Funny though - when I started playing with a team with a good friend of mine, his teammates who are all much more experienced than me (I'm only 23) would smack the back of my head when I popped up on a shot so now I no longer do this - which we also tested by having me shoot while someone held their cue an inch a half above my head.

My natural stroke also is not with a perfectly straight arm - from shoulder to hand it's probably a 15 degree angle - almost like McCready's side arm stroke just not nearly as far out like that.

If I can I'll record a video of me playing - have some teammates take pictures of me playing and see if I (or you guys) can dissect the problem.
 
Forget pivot point. Mosconi never knew what that was, I don't and ask Efren what deflection is. Listen to Hang the 9. And buy Mark Wilson's book and Get a lesson.

This is what helped my stroke. First, I read Mark's book (this was after a couple lessons with Scott Lee and Jerry Brieseth), but Mark's book really gives you a study-able template.
I set up a long straight in shot from corner to corner. (cue ball about 12 inches from the bottom corner and the OB about a diamonds length passed the middle of the table). I put the reenforcement donuts to mark the spots. I did this 100s

This shot provides invaluable information to correct what is wrong. It allows you to focus on a single variable at a time with instant feedback. DO NOT underestimate the stance and how you are lining up the shot. You MUST stay down on the shot afterwords to see where the stick ended up. And You Must not move your head.

Mark suggests that after EVERY shot you ask yourself how could I have stroked that better (good for mental game in competition as well).
 
prewarhero said:
Forget pivot point. Mosconi never knew what that was, I don't and ask Efren what deflection is. Listen to Hang the 9. And buy Mark Wilson's book and Get a lesson.

This is what helped my stroke. First, I read Mark's book (this was after a couple lessons with Scott Lee and Jerry Brieseth), but Mark's book really gives you a study-able template.
I set up a long straight in shot from corner to corner. (cue ball about 12 inches from the bottom corner and the OB about a diamonds length passed the middle of the table). I put the reenforcement donuts to mark the spots. I did this 100s

This shot provides invaluable information to correct what is wrong. It allows you to focus on a single variable at a time with instant feedback. DO NOT underestimate the stance and how you are lining up the shot. You MUST stay down on the shot afterwords to see where the stick ended up. And You Must not move your head.

Mark suggests that after EVERY shot you ask yourself how could I have stroked that better (good for mental game in competition as well).
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree...I have shot (and still do) 100's straight in shots every freaking day of the week. Been doing it for 4 months now.

As my Chinese teacher said; This is a proven method to become a Master within 1 year.
 
prewarhero said:
Forget pivot point. Mosconi never knew what that was, I don't and ask Efren what deflection is. Listen to Hang the 9. And buy Mark Wilson's book and Get a lesson.

This is what helped my stroke. First, I read Mark's book (this was after a couple lessons with Scott Lee and Jerry Brieseth), but Mark's book really gives you a study-able template.
I set up a long straight in shot from corner to corner. (cue ball about 12 inches from the bottom corner and the OB about a diamonds length passed the middle of the table). I put the reenforcement donuts to mark the spots. I did this 100s

This shot provides invaluable information to correct what is wrong. It allows you to focus on a single variable at a time with instant feedback. DO NOT underestimate the stance and how you are lining up the shot. You MUST stay down on the shot afterwords to see where the stick ended up. And You Must not move your head.

Mark suggests that after EVERY shot you ask yourself how could I have stroked that better (good for mental game in competition as well).
Click to expand...

Great advice PWH on fundamentals, but remember that you are competing today with people that DO KNOW WHAT A PIVOT POINT IS. more information is available more readily to people today via the internet. I don't think it's good advice to tell someone to dismiss basic easy things that can have a dramatic improvement on their game just because you yourself don't understand it. Stroke takes many hours of practice...pivot point basics can be taught in 20 minutes by someone who understands it. It comes down to ...play with a short bridge or a longer bridge depending on your shaft type. Easy.

Remember too that the age old school of training on bridge length was like a hand length away from the cue ball. Yes, in mosconis time. Ps, that's about...6" !!! That's because there were only solid maple shafts back then. Go figure...they were playing with bridge lengths that were matched to their pivot points!

Many players already have adjusted their bridge length to match their pivot point without even knowing it. They just know that they are most comfortable playing at that distance.
I ran into a pro some time ago that played at about 14"...and I asked him why he played with such a long bridge...he said...I don't know. Just feels comfortable to me. No surprise he was playing with a Z shaft. He had made those corrections automatically without knowing anything about pivot point.

I'm not saying that it's the fix all, end all, you still need good mechanics on everything else, but it can't hurt to match your pivot point in most cases.

Also, I'm not suggesting that bridging 14" is a great idea, cuz the Z has a ridiculous pivot point, but why not take a little time to see if moving the bridg 2" up or down still feels comfortable, and more closely matches your pivot point?

For example, if this OP has a maple shaft with a 6" pivot point and is playing at 10"......there's room for immediate improvement...on stroke accuracy and pivot point.

Where I think that new comers can get a little in trouble is when they start with a predator shaft with. 10/12" pivot point, and they should be using a 6" or less bridge length to stabilize their wobbly stroke. Seems like a predator would be potentially counter productive on shots where their stroke was off, and now it gets amplified by a gross difference in the pivot point.
 
Native said:
Hey guys,

I was practicing at a local tourney with a buddy of mine last night on a triple shimmed pocket table where you had to hit pretty much the dead center of the pocket or be rejected out =P

It's really a great way to see how solid your fundamentals are - so, for the most part when I consciously told myself to relax my muscle, loosen my grip a lot, and follow through my shots dropped but ever so often I noticed that on long straight shots my shots wouldn't drop so I think my stroke is off a little.

I know you can test your stroke, and straighten it with a beer bottle, felt/wood rail straight line, and shoot the ball from the spot up the table to see if it hits your cue tip on it's return path.

My question is - if I do find an imperfection in my stroke - how do I fix it?
Click to expand...

Triple-shimmed tables are gimmick tables. Many top players with big strokes would become extremely frustrated on them and would not be able to play on them. Those types of tables are not a judge of a player's fundamentals. In fact, it would require a short, compact stroke for success and use of minimal or no English, which will limit the things you can do. If you want to test your fundamentals, 4 1/2 to 4 5/8 inch pockets would do it for you.
 
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FranCrimi said:
Triple-shimmed tables are gimmick tables. Many top players with big strokes would become extremely frustrated on them and would not be able to play on them. Those types of tables are not a judge of a player's fundamentals. In fact, it would require a short, compact stroke for success and use of minimal or no English, which will limit the things you can do. If you want to test your fundamentals, 4 1/2 to 4 5/8 inch pockets would do it for you.
Click to expand...

Im not good enough to have an opinion on this but i have heard the same advice from other pros. Practicing on a very tight box is not a good idea. I would GUESS it is more damaging to your game if you are a B player or less.
 
Practice. Oh, and....practice. There are a million drills. Get a good coach. Also, practice. Consistency is the key. A smooth stroke is important, but consistently getting back through the cue ball with a good follow thru is most important of all. On top of that, you need to be able find center ball. You don't have to use it, but you need to be able to find it. Good luck.
 
Stan Shuffet gave me the same drill that he gave Stevie Moore. Stevie used to use it before a big match, and did on TAR when he played Chris Bartram. Line all 15 balls evenly spaced between the two side pockets. Take cue ball in hand in the kitchen. Shoot all the balls straight in the corner pockets. Either pocket, cue ball in hand on each shot. Stop the cue ball dead. You WILL see results. Of course, stay down on each shot. If you think that this is easy, just see how many of a rack you split the pocket on and stop the cue ball dead.
 
Native said:
Thanks Hang -

So basically my stroke will work itself out then?

Like if I consistently following through and end up with my tip on the right side of the straight line then practicing my stroke until it consistently follows that straight line will work out the kinks?

EDIT: After watching my grip hand when stroking - I noticed that as I finish my stroke I move my wrist just out of line with my stroke at the finish (basically just before the point where I'd make contact with the CB)
Click to expand...

Your stroke will not just work itself out.
What City do you live is?
I will get you some help.

randyg
 
I know this sounds ridiculous, but if you have a smart phone, video record yourself shooting. It's really simple and it can point out a multitude of things, such as seeing if your staying down on the shot long enough.

You would be amazed how easily one can be setup.
 
Stroke,

I've heard the same thing said about triple shimmed pockets - I was explaining to my buddy Alex that it's probably harmful to <B rank players because you won't consistently make shots and that can hurt your confidence.

But, I'm at least a B player (save for long shots...)

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2
 
Play snooker. One of two things will happen, either you will improve - or you will quit.:grin-square:
 
First off, find an instructor or Coach.

Feedback from the analysis is very important, whether it be a good coach or a Video tape to see yourself in action.

You will probably find some imperfection(s) in your stance, your grip or your aiming. Understanding the problem is the first step in solving the problem.

Good Luck...
 
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