How do you view the CPA/APA/JPA?? What is it like for you?
- Thread starter D_Lewis
- Start date
I am not sure what area APA LO runs but it sounds like he pays out a bunch more than what the APA operator pays out in the area I live in. For this, his players should be thankfull. However, speaking from personal experience, an APA team who has won a trip out of our local league can only expect to get around 2500$ from the league in travel money to Vegas. This figure is more in line with what ibea7467 is stating is the norm for his area. APA LO have you ever thought that you might be the exception rather than the rule? The APA is an ok league, I just feel that there are better options out there that give you more more return on your money.
IbeAnEngineer said:
Looking back at my last post, I apologize if I came off too strong in my response. Ridiculous isn't really the preferred word, but I apparently liked it a lot in that particular response. Ugh. I think it would be better to just state that if you don't have all the information to work with, it's probably not a good idea to attempt to calculate what APA does or doesn't pay out.
Anyway, to your response. I can't really answer your question because I don't have all the necessary information like Ibea7467, so I can't say if I'm the exception rather than the rule.
But, I can say that I've met and become friendly with most of the other APA LO's across North America, and we exchange ideas and share successes and failures and constantly look for ways to improve our leagues, just as APA constantly does the same thing.
I'm not really anymore innovative than the next APA LO. I've stolen (for lack of a better term) many ideas from other more experienced and successful LO's to make my own league better. Because I have done that, I'd like to think I'm the norm rather than the exception.
APA has also not grown to its current size because of me. It has taken many creative, inspirational and dedicated people to build APA to what it is today and I've been very proud to be a part of this organization as long as I have, as a player and as an LO.
I don't really come here to talk about me, however. I just post occasionally when I think I can be helpful with APA questions or concerns. In this case, my suggestion is to first attempt to contact your LO and ask the questions that concern you. If your LO can't resolve your concerns, contact the APA and direct those same questions to them.
Contacting your LO and the APA National Office is a good first and second step. Nobody here can really help you with your concerns. Those people can. You're not the first person to have concerns about what does or doesn't get paid out. It happens in my local league and it happens in probably every other APA LO's local league.
I wish I could be of more help, but the answers to your questions or concerns lies directly with the person running your local league and/or the APA National Office. Not every APA League Operator has been successful at running an APA League. Some have been more successful than others. I think you'll find this in just about any business you involve yourself in.
I would hope that your LO has an open line of communication available to hear your concerns. If not, APA has a tremendous staff that will listen and investigate.
And my apologies once again if my last post came off too rudely.
In my opinion the APA is really great for very inexperienced players. If you get a group of friends together to form a team and they are all fours and threes, great. If they start to get better then you have to disband the team. The 8 ball league is filled with sandbagging. I have played against teams with only 5 players. They just make the 23 rule. If anyone goes up they have to forfeit a match. I am a six. Last week I played a three. He broke and ran out in the first game. The second game he broke and ran out to the 8 and missed. I ran 5 balls and missed. He ran out. If this was a five or six I would just say nice shooting. If he was new to the league and started out as four I would understand that his ranking was not fully set yet . But a three. He cheated. It is that simple. I would like to see a league similar to the apa or tap where you had to play similar ranked players. For example, you highest ranked player has to play my highest ranked player.
kaznj said:
We have a 3 on our team that we save for really strong 6s and 7s. He isn't the best position player, and we use his 2 timeouts per rack to help him with safties, but the kid can flat-out pocket balls that he can see. Most stronger players get a bit lazy when playing a 3, and leave longer, tough shots instead of locking up a true safety....BIG MISTAKE with this kid, and that's what we count on. Out of the 5 7s that he played last session he won 4 times. You don't want to play him when he has to only win two games. And with some coaching (remember 2 time outs per rack), he should win 2 outta 5 or 6 games most times. BTW, most that will read this think that he is just a sandbagging 3, but without the coaching... - let's say he were to play any of his opponents after league for cash, he'd lose 75-80% of the time.....in a 2 to 6 race.
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D_Lewis said:
100% huh? Why have handicaps at all then? Isn't that "supposed" to even the playing field? Why is it when a 5 beats a 7 say 3-3, the 5 is a sandbagger? Or when a 4 beats a 5 3-0....? It happens, and that's why there are handicaps. I think it's funny to see a strong player lighten up a little after seeing that they're playing a 3 or 4....their problem, and call it sandbagging if you like.
D_Lewis said:
sorry, didn't see your "straight up" comment....I edited my post from before. I meant with the same 2-6 race he'd lose nearly all the time....not straight up.
trustyrusty said:
I was just going by what you said
"he should win 2 outta 5 or 6 games most times. BTW, most that will read this think that he is just a sandbagging 3, BUT WITHOUT THE SPOT, and the coaching - let's say he were to play any of his opponents after league for cash, he'd lose 75-80% of the time....."
kaznj said:
No, it really isn't that simple. Let me ask you a few questions.
#1. Were you playing against this guy in the final match of your Local Team Championships?
#2. Were you playing for first place in your division and this guy played the crucial match that decided who won the division?
#3. Exactly what part of his match was he "sandbagging"? In other words, in what way was this guy hiding his true ability with you?
#4. How new to this league is this guy?
#5. Why is this guy really only a 3?
#6. What about his skills made you believe he was clearly underrated?
These are the questions you should ask yourself when your opponent plays way above their skill level.
The first thing I notice with your post is that it doesn't appear that you fully understand what the term sandbagger really is. Someone who randomly kicks a skill level 6's ass in a game of pool like this guy did to you is not hiding anything. It's possible that he was hiding his ability up until the time he played your match, but what about your match needed to bring out his best game at that very moment? As far as I know, most APA leagues are in the early to middle stages of a session. If the person truly was a sandbagger, wouldn't that person rather save that whoop ass game for a more meaningful match? I'm guessing that the player probably went up in skill level after that match.
What it sounds like to me is that the player is fairly new to the league and his skill level isn't established yet. That, or the table played perfectly for him and he had a really good match, which any player can have happen on a given night.
Very rarely do I see 5 person teams that only have 5 person rosters. Most carry 7-8 players on their team. Most also do not disband their team when they get "top heavy". They replace a player or two with lower rated players so that they can continue playing together. The APA is great not just for inexperienced players, but for anyone who understands that there are skill level limits and over time players tend to get better at playing rather than worse.
What I see is an angry post that is very misleading. I have to admit that I wouldn't be happy if I lost a match the way you did. But at the same time, the people you are complaining to here can't help you. Write a note on the score sheet or call your LO. That's the person who can help you.
If that's the only time that player ever played a match like that in their life, all you can do is tip your cap to them and say nice match. If the player is fairly new, the LO can take a closer look to see if this person is improperly rated. If the team has truly been hiding this person's ability, your call to the league office could tip off the LO to a problem team that might need to be dealt with if they are truly manipulating skill levels.
In this case, the last sentence sounds the least likely, but I wouldn't rule it out completely.
As far as your hypothetical league concept, it doesn't sound like a league that would be nearly as successful as the APA. In fact, it sounds much like the current BCA or VNEA leagues in that there is no cap limit on team strength and only the best players around compete in that league.
The beauty and strength of APA leagues is that players of all abilities can compete, and current rules require that they all be able to compete. But, with handicap leagues comes the possibility of manipulating skill levels. When you see it happening, contact your LO. When you see someone who doesn't look properly rated, don't just assume that the player is sandbagging. Contact your LO in these instances as well, because your LO wants ratings to be as accurate for you as you want them to be for you.
It would be wonderful if every player ever week played at a rating that reflected their true ability, whether they were new to the league or old hat. But, that's virtually impossible. Because you are also asking for a system that has you play to the same ability week after week with no variation for yourself. Some weeks I suck, some weeks I shoot average and some weeks I impress even my own self. I can never predict ahead of time how the balls will roll off of my cue, and neither can anyone else.
Best case scenario, shake your opponents hand and tell them they played an awesome match and let your LO investigate whether the player is a cheater, had a good night or isn't properly rated yet because they are new to the league. It's better for the health of the organization that you are a part of.