How is it possible? Maddening….

dquarasr

Registered
I've been playing seriously, really trying to learn, for just over a year, playing very casually off and on for 20 years. I am APA SL4 in 8 and 5 in 9. I practice fairly often (retirement is wonderful!) I managed #1 MVP in APA 8-ball just concluded fall session.

But I cannot explain how I can do a stroke/alignment/aim drill (the Mother of All Drills cross-corner long shot), get dialed in, make four-five in a row, sometimes even having the CB follow the OB into the pocket a few in a row (ensuring it was hit perfectly), then, performing the exact same steps (seemingly), have the OB miss the pocket completely four-five in a row.

It is maddening. I can't explain it.

Thoughts, or even words of encouragement? Is this normal? Is this what it takes to develop the shot-making ability I seek? I know it supposedly requires the proverbial 10,000 hours, but I'm not even using any spin; I'm using center CB.

Thanks in advance for any insight or words of commiseration you can offer.
 
Yup, happened to me the same way, and I've made the same comments to other people.

I'd do some drills perfectly, go to the bathroom, come back, and have difficulty in making shots twice in a row. I'd have to start over again, working through my fundamentals. After about 45 minutes, suddenly everything would start to come back again.

In my case, it was usually something in my back arm. Grip too tight. Arm not relaxed. Moving during the shot. But sometimes it was not getting down vertically, or placing my feet differntly.

It doesn't happen very often any more. I seem to have internalized the feel of the shot, and can recognize much sooner why I'm missing. Now, when I have this problem crop up, i can figure out what it was in a shot or two.
 
I'm not an instructor.

I'd say it's very common, so you're not alone. I suck at drills because I get myself psyched out and miss pathetically easy shots as a result. Trying to play a game like equal offense, or even 9 ball ghost just gets in my head. When I'm playing another player I think it's actually less pressure on me! 😅 Playing another player on 9 ball, I just shoot til there are no balls left, or play safe if it's a terrible percentage. Solo the score count or ball count just seethes in the back of my mind. The only time I break and run in 9B is when I'm playing someone else. I'll often not even realize it's a B&R unless they tell me.

Most people hate to hear this, but practice isn't too helpful until you get your fundamentals perfect as you can. You'll progress much faster and practice is much more rewarding. It's also easier to observe what went wrong with a solid and CONSISTENT foundation to rely on. IMO each practice session should start with pocket hangers or very simple shots so you can check that your fundamentals are up to par. No use trying hard shots until you are tuned into proper form.

I'm not an instructor so take this as you will, but the brain is a terrible pool player. Make sure you're not overthinking it. Often in practice (or games) you'll overthink shots and sabotage yourself. If you make 5 in a row, it's prime time for thoughts to creep in, get you uptight, or not having a clear mind and cause problems. You might be feeling good about making that many in a row, or you might be scared about missing after all those good shots. The only way to not do it IMO is hit more balls and stop thinking. Practice is for learning and observing, not judgement or beating yourself up. I'm terribly guilty about it and felt like my progress had stalled for a couple weeks. I was over thinking and over analyzing every shot. I finally got my head empty while shooting and am now playing back to my speed.

Try this: After you figure out what you want to do while standing, aim while standing and then purposefully click your chalk on the rail as you set it down. The click is your cue to stop thinking. Hear the click and let it clear your mind. Get into stance and shoot, feel the shot, hear the shot, but for crying out loud, don't think about the shot. You've already decided what to do while standing, thinking while down on the shot is a sure fire way to play below your abilities. I'm serious, plan EVERYTHING while up, 2 way shots, safety play, etc. If once you get down you're thinking, get back up and re-analyze the situation. Click your chalk and shoot. Feel the shot, feel the air currents on your arm, hear the sounds but don't think! ;)

Good luck, you'll get where you want to be. This is one cruel game, but that's what makes it one of the few worth playing and investing time into practice.
 
When things get confusing, I find that focusing on following through often corrects stroke and timing issues. If you start out determined to finish your stroke with a nice follow through, you may wind up eliminating some of the quirky things that happen when you hesitate. It's hard to hesitate when you're focus is on following through.
 
There are a ton of tiny things that can go wrong when trying to deliver a perfectly straight stroke, and it's hard to stay focused on all of them and keep them all "in check" so to speak. And as an SL 4/5, you're also limited in your ability to both perceive those tiny flaws and maintain consistent focus to avoid them creeping into your game, especially after mentally checking out briefly and then coming back to the table.

  • You may have aimed the shot incorrectly.
  • You may have gotten a little lazy with your tip placement at the cue ball before beginning your backstroke.
  • You have may have failed to pause long enough at the cue ball to allow yourself to "settle" into your stance (set position) which resulted in your tip drifting from where you wanted it.
    You may have tightened your grip just before impact or when beginning your backstroke (which also throws your tip offline).
  • You may have rushed your backstroke.
  • You may have moved your head slightly during the stroke.
  • You may have chicken winged slightly without realizing it.
  • You may have gotten down on the shot slightly differently than you do when you're dialed in.
  • You may have changed your eye pattern, which can be as subtle as not looking at the object ball or cue ball as long as you were before (even a quarter of a second difference can result in a miss).
  • And finally, the pressure may simply get to you, which can result in a whole host of mechanical errors.

All of these are common reasons for missing any shot, but especially straight-ins. I know exactly what you're experiencing and how frustrating it is. For me, it took years of trial and error and trying to observe my mechanics and my results as objectively as possible to start narrowing down reasons for missing straight-ins.

Within the past year or so I've finally achieve the consistency I desired and the ability to very quickly diagnose those baffling misses where it seemed like I did everything right. There's really no shortcut to getting there other than being aware of all the things that can cause you to miss and trying to adopt as textbook of mechanics as possible.

Basically, those shots demand intense focus. But the good news is that with enough experience and practice, you can start to have a more "relaxed focus" on them, which is much easier to summon up when needed and far more reliable and consistent. Because just the mere sight of a long straight-in starts to look much more manageable and you'll know confidently that as long your personal key steps are followed, you have a very, very good chance of hitting the cue ball pure and exactly where you intend.
 
Fran's post is one of the best ever...simple, positive, and most of all rewarding. Try it. Follow thru....
 
I'm not an instructor.

I'd say it's very common, so you're not alone. I suck at drills because I get myself psyched out and miss pathetically easy shots as a result. Trying to play a game like equal offense, or even 9 ball ghost just gets in my head. When I'm playing another player I think it's actually less pressure on me! 😅 Playing another player on 9 ball, I just shoot til there are no balls left, or play safe if it's a terrible percentage. Solo the score count or ball count just seethes in the back of my mind. The only time I break and run in 9B is when I'm playing someone else. I'll often not even realize it's a B&R unless they tell me.

Most people hate to hear this, but practice isn't too helpful until you get your fundamentals perfect as you can. You'll progress much faster and practice is much more rewarding. It's also easier to observe what went wrong with a solid and CONSISTENT foundation to rely on. IMO each practice session should start with pocket hangers or very simple shots so you can check that your fundamentals are up to par. No use trying hard shots until you are tuned into proper form.

I'm not an instructor so take this as you will, but the brain is a terrible pool player. Make sure you're not overthinking it. Often in practice (or games) you'll overthink shots and sabotage yourself. If you make 5 in a row, it's prime time for thoughts to creep in, get you uptight, or not having a clear mind and cause problems. You might be feeling good about making that many in a row, or you might be scared about missing after all those good shots. The only way to not do it IMO is hit more balls and stop thinking. Practice is for learning and observing, not judgement or beating yourself up. I'm terribly guilty about it and felt like my progress had stalled for a couple weeks. I was over thinking and over analyzing every shot. I finally got my head empty while shooting and am now playing back to my speed.

Try this: After you figure out what you want to do while standing, aim while standing and then purposefully click your chalk on the rail as you set it down. The click is your cue to stop thinking. Hear the click and let it clear your mind. Get into stance and shoot, feel the shot, hear the shot, but for crying out loud, don't think about the shot. You've already decided what to do while standing, thinking while down on the shot is a sure fire way to play below your abilities. I'm serious, plan EVERYTHING while up, 2 way shots, safety play, etc. If once you get down you're thinking, get back up and re-analyze the situation. Click your chalk and shoot. Feel the shot, feel the air currents on your arm, hear the sounds but don't think! ;)

Good luck, you'll get where you want to be. This is one cruel game, but that's what makes it one of the few worth playing and investing time into practice.
I tried this a little yesterday. Interesting idea.

I need to give it a lot more time.
 
When things get confusing, I find that focusing on following through often corrects stroke and timing issues. If you start out determined to finish your stroke with a nice follow through, you may wind up eliminating some of the quirky things that happen when you hesitate. It's hard to hesitate when you're focus is on following through.
Yes, I notice I am more accurate when I follow through, but not just follow through; I need to follow through to where I want the CB to go. If I don't focus on the follow-through PATH, it often goes left (prolly a result of the chicken wing before contact). I have video'd myself, and I do tend to chicken-wing a little if I don't follow through. Also notice I'm better when I really relax my arm.

That said, I still have trouble from short session to short session, sometimes even from shot to shot. I'm working on it, trying to figure out why.
 
There are a ton of tiny things that can go wrong when trying to deliver a perfectly straight stroke, and it's hard to stay focused on all of them and keep them all "in check" so to speak. And as an SL 4/5, you're also limited in your ability to both perceive those tiny flaws and maintain consistent focus to avoid them creeping into your game, especially after mentally checking out briefly and then coming back to the table.

  • You may have aimed the shot incorrectly.
  • You may have gotten a little lazy with your tip placement at the cue ball before beginning your backstroke.
  • You have may have failed to pause long enough at the cue ball to allow yourself to "settle" into your stance (set position) which resulted in your tip drifting from where you wanted it.
    You may have tightened your grip just before impact or when beginning your backstroke (which also throws your tip offline).
  • You may have rushed your backstroke.
  • You may have moved your head slightly during the stroke.
  • You may have chicken winged slightly without realizing it.
  • You may have gotten down on the shot slightly differently than you do when you're dialed in.
  • You may have changed your eye pattern, which can be as subtle as not looking at the object ball or cue ball as long as you were before (even a quarter of a second difference can result in a miss).
  • And finally, the pressure may simply get to you, which can result in a whole host of mechanical errors.

All of these are common reasons for missing any shot, but especially straight-ins. I know exactly what you're experiencing and how frustrating it is. For me, it took years of trial and error and trying to observe my mechanics and my results as objectively as possible to start narrowing down reasons for missing straight-ins.

Within the past year or so I've finally achieve the consistency I desired and the ability to very quickly diagnose those baffling misses where it seemed like I did everything right. There's really no shortcut to getting there other than being aware of all the things that can cause you to miss and trying to adopt as textbook of mechanics as possible.

Basically, those shots demand intense focus. But the good news is that with enough experience and practice, you can start to have a more "relaxed focus" on them, which is much easier to summon up when needed and far more reliable and consistent. Because just the mere sight of a long straight-in starts to look much more manageable and you'll know confidently that as long your personal key steps are followed, you have a very, very good chance of hitting the cue ball pure and exactly where you intend.
Most if not all of the bullet points above. But the maddening part is that I can check all those things, and be POSITIVE I'm lined up, aimed right, cueing straight, following through, relaxed, etc., etc., etc., yet still drift, even within a short five minutes.

I have noticed, though, that doing the Mother of All Drills, where I have a visible chalk line along the shot line, I can get dialed in quickly. I "feel" it when my body is aligned differently from shot to shot. This is possibly the root cause of my issues. I know what it feels like when I am nailing it, and I know what it feels like when I begin to get lost. The problem is that I sometimes don't know what to correct when I feel lost.

I have experimented a bit, and it might have to do with how far forward or back I place my feet. I KNOW I am lining up my shots correctly left-to-right (especially doing the spot to spot shot where I can check whether my cue is directly over the diamond on the near short rail). But sometimes it feels off; my right arm is not in the same position relative to my hip and chest. I find that I might be a little off when I am a bit too far back from the shot. I've noticed that as little as two inches can make a difference. I'm sure this is not the sum total of my issues, but it's something I've noticed. I bet there are other things that, over time, will reveal themselves.

It's encouraging to hear I'm not alone. More table time can't hurt as long as I'm not cementing bad habits, and I don't think I am (or at least I hope not). Might be time for another lesson. . . . .
 
A lesson with an instructor is a huge force multiplier in getting back on track. Even the pros spend time each year making sure their fundamentals haven't shifted over time. If someone at their level needs a touch up lesson, I'm pretty sure all of us mere mortals could benefit greatly from a lesson.

Often we can make a shot in spite of shaky fundamentals. I know I can line up any old way, stand on one foot, etc and still cue straight. It sounds like a great thing, but trust me, it's not. When we are slightly twisted, too close/far or our alignment is a bit wonky we may still make the shot, but it requires many more muscle groups to do so. We miss and wonder what happened. We forgot to keep it simple and introduced more places where an error could occur. In a non correct alignment/stance, there are more working parts which introduces more parts for trouble. When we can get our alignment correct we use less muscle groups and such to stroke straight. Less opportunities for things to go wrong. Personally, I wish I had missed every shot I ever took when my stance was incorrect. This would have made diagnosing problems instant instead of letting stuff creep into my game for years without recognizing it.

This is a great one, there are 3 parts:

Personally, this really helped the whole fundamental/stance thing really click with me. I was self taught for decades. I'd read the books and tried to mimic all the proper stance snippets I read over the years. Somehow seeing it broken down and on video really helped.

This series also has a lot of good instruction, not trying to overwhelm, but it's also a good reference with a ton of good info:

During this, he talks about not being a "table polisher." What he means is to not crowd the table, sometimes this is difficult in tight spaces but it seemed to help. Basically you walk into the shot line instead of trying to get down while too close to the table or side stepping into the line.

I think the key is to understand if you're like many pool players, it takes a while to "burn in" new and better techniques. Most realistically it won't come overnight, but if you keep chipping away at burning in good fundamentals, after a while it seems to feel really natural and you become more consistent.

Taking a lesson with a qualified instructor is a great idea. A good instructor can often quickly diagnose what is going on and keep one from going down rabbit holes that don't have as big of a payoff. It's easy to get lost in the minutia when self taught and relying on videos instead of having an instructor diagnose what needs work. They have a ton of experience and have most likely seen many similar situations. If you want to improve a specialist is a wise idea.
 
Yes, I notice I am more accurate when I follow through, but not just follow through; I need to follow through to where I want the CB to go. If I don't focus on the follow-through PATH, it often goes left (prolly a result of the chicken wing before contact). I have video'd myself, and I do tend to chicken-wing a little if I don't follow through. Also notice I'm better when I really relax my arm.

That said, I still have trouble from short session to short session, sometimes even from shot to shot. I'm working on it, trying to figure out why.
Dills and repetitions serve their purpose, but in a real game, you get just one chance at a shot. So instead of shooting the same shot over and over, create a series of different shots and shoot each shot only once, just like you would in an actual game. You can repeat the sequence or set up a new sequence, but shoot each shot only once. Who says you need to be able to excute a particular shot 9 out of 10 times in order to feel secure about shooting it? You only need to execute it once. You may be spinning your wheels too much.
 
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Most if not all of the bullet points above. But the maddening part is that I can check all those things, and be POSITIVE I'm lined up, aimed right, cueing straight, following through, relaxed, etc., etc., etc., yet still drift, even within a short five minutes.

I have noticed, though, that doing the Mother of All Drills, where I have a visible chalk line along the shot line, I can get dialed in quickly. I "feel" it when my body is aligned differently from shot to shot. This is possibly the root cause of my issues. I know what it feels like when I am nailing it, and I know what it feels like when I begin to get lost. The problem is that I sometimes don't know what to correct when I feel lost.

I have experimented a bit, and it might have to do with how far forward or back I place my feet. I KNOW I am lining up my shots correctly left-to-right (especially doing the spot to spot shot where I can check whether my cue is directly over the diamond on the near short rail). But sometimes it feels off; my right arm is not in the same position relative to my hip and chest. I find that I might be a little off when I am a bit too far back from the shot. I've noticed that as little as two inches can make a difference. I'm sure this is not the sum total of my issues, but it's something I've noticed. I bet there are other things that, over time, will reveal themselves.

It's encouraging to hear I'm not alone. More table time can't hurt as long as I'm not cementing bad habits, and I don't think I am (or at least I hope not). Might be time for another lesson. . . . .
There's honestly another factor and that is simply muscle memory, which is necessary to deliver a straight and pure stroke. And muscle memory is developed through repetition and practice.

Think about it this way: the best instructor in the world can physically move a total beginner into a perfect stance for a given shot and they'll still be a little wonky when delivering the cue. So even though you may have everything setup perfectly, you can still miss and have inconsistent results simply because you are limited by your current ability/muscle memory. Not saying you are a total beginner, but we all fall somewhere on a scale between "never picked up a cue before" and Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Another way to think of it is that you can't just go through a series of steps and elevate your game 100 Fargo points, or jump to an SL 7/9 overnight. You can certainly do things that shorten your learning curve, and it sounds like you are doing those things. But you also have to accept that improvement is always incremental, even when you are doing absolutely everything right. And that means inconsistency is part of the deal (because if you weren't inconsistent, you wouldn't be at your current skill level).

Stay the course, keep practicing, and don't get lazy with any aspect of your mechanics. The payoff is coming.
 
Dills and repetitions serve their purpose, but in a real game, you get just one chance at a shot. So instead of shooting the same shot over and over, create a series of different shots and shoot each shot only once, just like you would in an actual game. You can repeat the sequence or set up a new sequence, but shoot each shot only once. Who says you need to be able to excute a particular shot 9 out of 10 times in order to feel secure about shooting it? You only need to execute it once. You may be spinning your wheels too much.
I use the straight-in shot to groove my alignment, stance, and stroke. It's not the only drill/activity I perform at the table. But if I start a session and I'm off on the straight-in long shot, how can I expect a shot with a cut to be even close? If I miss the straight-in shot consistently one side or the other (and as long as my stroke is relaxed, I'm usually consistent with misses), I can sometimes diagnose why I'm off. But sometimes I can't, and that's the point of this post.

I'll take your comments and apply them. I'll try to rely less on these drills and play a higher variety of shots.

As always thanks for your feedback.
There's honestly another factor and that is simply muscle memory, which is necessary to deliver a straight and pure stroke. And muscle memory is developed through repetition and practice.

Think about it this way: the best instructor in the world can physically move a total beginner into a perfect stance for a given shot and they'll still be a little wonky when delivering the cue. So even though you may have everything setup perfectly, you can still miss and have inconsistent results simply because you are limited by your current ability/muscle memory. Not saying you are a total beginner, but we all fall somewhere on a scale between "never picked up a cue before" and Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Another way to think of it is that you can't just go through a series of steps and elevate your game 100 Fargo points, or jump to an SL 7/9 overnight. You can certainly do things that shorten your learning curve, and it sounds like you are doing those things. But you also have to accept that improvement is always incremental, even when you are doing absolutely everything right. And that means inconsistency is part of the deal (because if you weren't inconsistent, you wouldn't be at your current skill level).

Stay the course, keep practicing, and don't get lazy with any aspect of your mechanics. The payoff is coming.
Thanks. While I'm not completely looking for instant gratification, I do expect progress. Some days it seems there isn't any. I must learn to accept these days as part of the process, and look at progress in terms of month-by-month or even league session-by-league session.
 
I use the straight-in shot to groove my alignment, stance, and stroke. It's not the only drill/activity I perform at the table. But if I start a session and I'm off on the straight-in long shot, how can I expect a shot with a cut to be even close? If I miss the straight-in shot consistently one side or the other (and as long as my stroke is relaxed, I'm usually consistent with misses), I can sometimes diagnose why I'm off. But sometimes I can't, and that's the point of this post.

I'll take your comments and apply them. I'll try to rely less on these drills and play a higher variety of shots.

As always thanks for your feedback.

Thanks. While I'm not completely looking for instant gratification, I do expect progress. Some days it seems there isn't any. I must learn to accept these days as part of the process, and look at progress in terms of month-by-month or even league session-by-league session.
You don't have to have such a rigid approach to learning and you don't have to solve every problem that arises. You can put things aside for the time being and move on to other things. Sometimes solving an unrelated issue winds up being the solution for something you couldn't figure out before. And make sure you take time out from learning to just have fun playing. Your sense of awareness won't go away if you're having fun. And who knows....you may discover something that you didn't realize. You have to change it up or you will remain stuck.
 
Thanks. While I'm not completely looking for instant gratification, I do expect progress. Some days it seems there isn't any. I must learn to accept these days as part of the process, and look at progress in terms of month-by-month or even league session-by-league session.
Absolutely. I can relate to all of this so much because I was exactly there. I spent two years devoting most of my practice time to what you're doing. And to be honest, it wasn't worth it. I definitely got better, but Fran is right. You can't obsess over it because then, as an SL 4/5, you're leaving some seriously low-hanging fruit for your improvement on the tree. Being a master of long straight-ins won't help you much when your cue ball and pattern play are lacking.

I definitely understand your plight, though. But just be cautious of trying to turn into a cue testing robot at this point in your development. You're 200 (and maybe even 300) Fargo points away from needing to develop a true laser stroke. "Straight enough" will take you a long way at this point when combined with other building blocks.
 
You don't have to have such a rigid approach to learning and you don't have to solve every problem that arises. You can put things aside for the time being and move on to other things. Sometimes solving an unrelated issue winds up being the solution for something you couldn't figure out before. And make sure you take time out from learning to just have fun playing. Your sense of awareness won't go away if you're having fun. And who knows....you may discover something that you didn't realize. You have to change it up or you will remain stuck.
Best post in this thread by far,,,,,,,,,,
 
Absolutely. I can relate to all of this so much because I was exactly there. I spent two years devoting most of my practice time to what you're doing. And to be honest, it wasn't worth it. I definitely got better, but Fran is right. You can't obsess over it because then, as an SL 4/5, you're leaving some seriously low-hanging fruit for your improvement on the tree. Being a master of long straight-ins won't help you much when your cue ball and pattern play are lacking.

I definitely understand your plight, though. But just be cautious of trying to turn into a cue testing robot at this point in your development. You're 200 (and maybe even 300) Fargo points away from needing to develop a true laser stroke. "Straight enough" will take you a long way at this point when combined with other building blocks.
I am trying to assimilate these comments. My original thoughts and focus in this vein were centered on stroke, alignment, and aim fundamentals. I figure that if I can’t consistently make very simple nearly straight shots, position play won’t matter. Also I may have given the impression that long straight shots is all I do at the table. It’s not. It’s how I start sessions at the table to get somewhat dialed in (or as dialed in SL4/5 can be) before I move on to other drills, then play some racks against myself.

That said, however, I’ve received lots of feedback from competitors and teammates alike, telling me that at my skill level I play a fairly cerebral game, paying attention to patterns and at least attempting to control whitey even if I don’t always execute successfully. So I’m definitely not ignoring nuances of the game unrelated to pure shot making. Otherwise I don’t think I would have been able to finish the fall APA session #1 MVP in 8-ball, and #3 in 9-ball.

I am very grateful for the insightful responses to the many posts I’ve made in this section chronicling the ups and downs I’ve experienced in the last year or so. All your collective help has been very much appreciated and in no small part contributed to motivating me to stick with it during my darkest days on this journey.
 
You don't have to have such a rigid approach to learning and you don't have to solve every problem that arises. You can put things aside for the time being and move on to other things. Sometimes solving an unrelated issue winds up being the solution for something you couldn't figure out before. And make sure you take time out from learning to just have fun playing. Your sense of awareness won't go away if you're having fun. And who knows....you may discover something that you didn't realize. You have to change it up or you will remain stuck.
Found myself in a rut, shooting the same patterns, never trying any other solutions for given layout. The game was getting somewhat boring. I'm talking about 3C.
During the lockdowns I started shooting crazy off the wall solutions. Lots of spin shots as well as dead ball patterns. Never worrying about missing. The only thing I'd worry about was the basics. Stance, bridge, stroke,..
The game became fun again, and you know what? I learned a bunch of new things.
 
Blue Reader has a great point. Set a phone by the table, record yourself making a few then missing a few as described, and post the video here for analysis.
 
When things get confusing, I find that focusing on following through often corrects stroke and timing issues. If you start out determined to finish your stroke with a nice follow through, you may wind up eliminating some of the quirky things that happen when you hesitate. It's hard to hesitate when you're focus is on following through.

Sometimes on those long shots, when I'm looking up to the object ball just before stroking he shot, I pause my eyes at where the cuetip will hit the cloth. Not always, but for long shots or if I'm out of whack a bit. It helps to keep the stroke as straight as I planned it to be.

It's a short pause, but it triggers my mind to follow through so the tip sits on that spot.

It works for me, maybe for others, too?


Jeff Livingston
 
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