How much does low deflection really matter?

[QUOTE......

Do you golf? To me this feels like the difference between blade putters and fancy putters. I have both. I can give you all the advantages of the fancy putter, very similar in fact to the advantages of an LD shaft, but the simple fact of the matter is it's completely irrelevant to my actual performance. I putt best with the putter I practice with, whichever that happens to be at the time.[/QUOTE]

Nicely summed up!
 
john coloccia said:
Do you golf? To me this feels like the difference between blade putters and fancy putters.
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I have considerably more golf experience than pool experience. About 1 year Pool experience, 25 years Golf... and I have to say I think the putter analogy is inaccurate.

A putter in Golf is probably the more personal, subjective and fickle thing in all of sports. Sometimes a used $5 child's putter is freaking gold. But, as inexplicable as putting is, there are SOME things that are proving to be objectively more effective (Thicker grips for instance in recent years).
 
MuchoBurrito said:
I have considerably more golf experience than pool experience. About 1 year Pool experience, 25 years Golf... and I have to say I think the putter analogy is inaccurate.

A putter in Golf is probably the more personal, subjective and fickle thing in all of sports. Sometimes a used $5 child's putter is freaking gold. But, as inexplicable as putting is, there are SOME things that are proving to be objectively more effective (Thicker grips for instance in recent years).
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Maybe I'm misreading, but it seems like you're agreeing, therefor the putter analogy is wholly accurate.
 
Cornerman said:
What I did gain by going back to a normal shaft was better, more understandable speed control when using english, and much more accuracy and repeatability when shooting slow, spin shots (higher effective swerve, lower effective squirt).
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I love my LD shaft but have found myself missing many of these shots ever since switching, some of them by very wide margins. Thanks for pointing this out. Now it seems obvious but I had never thought about it before.
 
Cornerman said:
LD shaft helps a lot of players, but those that are already used to hitting both sides of the ball with whatever method they have, the advantage of LD isn't so significant, and that there could easily be disadvantages.
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Sorta my feeling on the whole thing. To me, it's not cut and dried that the LD shafts are an overall advantage, even if there are some specific cases that you can point to and say, "the LD shaft has an objective advantage here." I've not seen and huge jump in performance when I go to the pool hall. It all seems very much the same to me today as it was 20 years ago.

I'm not even sure I like the term "low deflection." Says who? Where does high deflection start and low deflection begin? It's a shame there isn't some standardized way of rating a shaft's performance across all of the important parameters, including deflection, instead of the broad catch-alls we have. Low/High deflection, stiff, whippy. That's too coarse.
 
Just want to point out (maybe someone else already did) that LD shafts have shortcomings as well.

In some delicate situations where you actually WANT to cheat the pocket/apply some english to get out from a tight spot, it may be advantageous to have a regular shaft.

Depending on the deflection, where you aim the object ball also determines where the cue ball would come out and hit the rail. But for a LD shaft, in theory, you aim at the same spot regardless of the english you put on the cue ball. So you create less path of the cue ball with a LD shaft.
 
Cornerman said:
Maybe I'm misreading, but it seems like you're agreeing, therefor the putter analogy is wholly accurate.
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I'm not.

With putting (putter stroke, grip, club, etc.) anything goes. A worthless, banged up putter from a liquidated mini-putt course can be just as good as a $300 Odyssey. I certainly don't think that a bent house cue with a flat, glazed tip would be as useful to anyone as a top of the line Predator or OB.

Maybe I didn't explain my thoughts properly, putting and putters in general are defy reason.

That being said, as for anything, there are obviously certain things that,objectively speaking, are better. Ex. regardless of your preference for standard vs. low deflection, we can all agree that a 500oz cue would not be optimal. So there are some things that, objectively speaking, fall more towards the objectively optimal end of the spectrum. That goes for all equipment in any sport.
 
gogg said:
[QUOTE......

Do you golf? To me this feels like the difference between blade putters and fancy putters. I have both. I can give you all the advantages of the fancy putter, very similar in fact to the advantages of an LD shaft, but the simple fact of the matter is it's completely irrelevant to my actual performance. I putt best with the putter I practice with, whichever that happens to be at the time.
Click to expand...

Nicely summed up![/QUOTE]

Not realy there's a reason why pro's don't play with blade putters and play with fancy putters and it's not cause they look good it's because they putt better with them plain and simple ,, it won't be long before all pro pool players play with LD shafts for the same reason

1
 
I'm sure all of you will agree that not all LD shafts are equal. The way to tell is in how long the name is. The longer the name, the lower the deflection of course.

I'm looking for a Hybrid-alpha Pro lll Super core Black Weapon Classic WX Ultimate Intimidating Eliminating Z 17 Ultra-Cat.
 
The question was "How much does low deflection really matter?"

The answer is: those shafts don't matter.
What matters is that you get used to one shaft and play like there's no tomorrow.
You can do the same stuff on any shaft. Just get used to what feels good to you.
To me what feels good is a solid maple shaft.
But then again I like a lot of feedback from my sticks.

Also, of note, I currently have the same tip on a solid maple shaft and an OB Classic +
shaft and the feel is totally different PLUS for whatever reason the LD just
feels terribly mushy as if I had installed medium-hard tip on the solid and soft on the LD.
Both shafts have a Triangle tips that were installed on the same day and have had roughly
the same amount of play.
No matter what I do I can not get the LD (in this case the OB) to feel as crisp.
And the tip always feels mushy and like it's much softer.

Don't know why.

This isn't the first test where I've done this and the LD always feels like the tips are much
softer and the shaft shoots somehow very mushy in comparison.
 
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Isn't it all just preference?

We have enough data to prove great pool can be played with a LD shaft, and a regular one.

People are always looking for the "whats best", but....I'm not sure you're gonna find it in this case.

Same with cue weight, stiff/soft hit, tip hardness, etc. Whats best will vary from person to person.
Unfortunately I don't think there is any shortcut to determine what it is that you play best with.


You guys must just like to argue :)
 
I'm a spinner. I use pocket edges and spin over power when possible. I like the predictability of LD shafts and find them to respond more linearly.

Not that I care much but most if not all the Top Euro's play with LD equipment.


Regards

Nick B
 
Ya got me!

I will never know if one type of shaft is really superior over the other if they are both of good quality. There are just to many variables, in my opinion. It falls into the what tip is best line of discussion.

If one type works best for you then use it and enjoy it and wish the other side well. There are so many good players using good old maple shafts and good players using low deflection shafts.

If SVB is using a what ever shaft and you think it would help your game then get one. Something tells me he could use one of my wonderful Diviney Lake Salvage shafts for a week and still be a great player, I will use the same shafts for the rest of my life and never be a great player.
 
one stroke said:
Not realy there's a reason why pro's don't play with blade putters and play with fancy putters and it's not cause they look good it's because they putt better with them plain and simple ,, it won't be long before all pro pool players play with LD shafts for the same reason
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What are you talking about? Tons of pros play with blade putters. Lots still use blade irons as well.
 
The Original Poster hit the nail on the head out of the gate.

It really is just a matter of adjusting to the amount of squirt (deflection) a particular shaft induces.

Ones ABILITY to do so accurately and quickly is where people start losing their ever-loving minds. They use euphemistic language and seditious statements like "well, in some way it does matter kinda sorta if you look at it with the light just right."

DO NOT BE CONFUSED by these charlatans, soothsayers and heretics. There is only you, your CHOSEN equipment and the box. Let none put this asunder. Pick a shaft and hit some balls. Stay in the box and never ever look up.

With all humility,

Lesh
 
Low deflection shafts exist for the beginners who want to spin the rock all over the table before they learn how to properly aim and stroke the ball. Players that cannot reliable make a ball and do not know the real reason why they miss shots, assume it must be deflection. The genius of the plan is that when one shaft doesn't fix their"deflection" problems they will buy a new shaft that will. When they shaft doesn't work? We've all seen apa threes dragging dealer cases into bang balls around a bar box.

Having said that, there are players who are experienced enough to know why they miss. Although it is not deflection that makes them miss, it is their inability to or their desire not to adjust for the deflection. That person may benefit from a low deflection shaft as long as they learn how to use it. This isn't a bad thing it's just a personal preference. Some people will argue until they're blue in the face that it is universally and objectively easier to use a low deflection shaft, but those people are just placating themselves. That is not a bad thing either, if you think something is easier it will become easier.

Proponents and purveyors of low deflection shafts will have you believe that they are point and shoot, meaning hit where you aim, news flash you always hit where you aim! Now where do you aim? Low cb squirt from a shaft does not solve the problem of aiming a rolling cue ball, it only slightly changes the equation. Squirt - swerve + throw = final aiming point. You're not erasing the squirt all together your just making it a different value. All three of these work in unison to get you to the correct contact point.
Finding the balance between these things is what makes a truly great player, not systematically eliminating them so you don't have learn anything. Now if we could just make frictionless surfaces and object balls that don't throw maybe I could start running racks, ooh wait I do that already with a high deflection shaft.

I will offer this one piece of advice, low deflection or high deflection doesn't matter. Pick one and learn how to use it. Everytime you switch shafts out whole cues, you start the learning and feeling process all over again. Now I know your not starting from square one, but there is something to be said for knowing exactly what your preferred piece of equipment will do on an ultimately finite scale. I've been playing the same cue and shaft for nineteen years now,I know to the nanometer where this cue will deliver the ball, even from nine feet away with the utmost extremes of spin. I can easily adjust and run racks with an ld shaft, but when I'm nine feet away and have to twist a ball in, I want the cue that I have done that with a thousand times before.
 
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Sorry for the diatribe, when you open a can of worms don't be surprised if there's worms inside.
 
LD shafts only come into play using inside english, besides that none.
Now a good piece of maple with a light ferrule will play LD as well.
 
scsuxci said:
LD shafts only come into play using inside english, besides that none. .
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How so? The cue ball does not know that the spin your using is inside or outside. Maybe your referring to cut induced throw? If so I still think your assessment is inaccurate, your giving to much value to cit. The question was not about maple shafts it was about deflection properties alone. Most shafts are made of maple. Ld will make adjustments different with inside or outside, it just won't make them any easier.
 
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