How not to use the Blue Book

[TATE]

The Blue Book pricing is bad enough without using it incorrectly. Here's a pretty common example of an incorrect use of the Blue Book:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Palmer-Original-pool-cue-second-catalog-model-B-Nice_W0QQitemZ7208013550QQcategoryZ21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

In this case the Model B is pictured in the BB and priced from 70% condition ($400) to 98% condition ($750). This cue here is about 70% - 80% (notice the swelling around the joint collar). So it needs a refinish. Since all the "B"s have foil under the window, you don't add to the price. He would have had pretty accurate pricing just using the $400 - $600 shown. That's about what these cues go for in reasonable condition.

The A and B were Palmer's most popular models in their day. Although there were about 6,000 B's made in the 4 year period they were offered, I think a reasonable estimate is that only 20% of them survived. The bar cues were cheap and plentiful, and they weren't collectible until much later on. Many got thrown out rather than fixed.

Because they are plentiful, a B cue, even in prime original condition, would not be worth much more than $800 in my opinion.

Chris

 

[ribdoner]

The Blue Book pricing is bad enough without using it incorrectly. Here's a pretty common example of an incorrect use of the Blue Book:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Palmer-Original-pool-cue-second-catalog-model-B-Nice_W0QQitemZ7208013550QQcategoryZ21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

In this case the Model B is pictured in the BB and priced from 70% condition ($400) to 98% condition ($750). This cue here is about 70% - 80% (notice the swelling around the joint collar). So it needs a refinish. Since all the "B"s have foil under the window, you don't add to the price. He would have had pretty accurate pricing just using the $400 - $600 shown. That's about what these cues go for in reasonable condition.

The A and B were Palmer's most popular models in their day. Although there were about 6,000 B's made in the 4 year period they were offered, I think a reasonable estimate is that only 20% of them survived. The bar cues were cheap and plentiful, and they weren't collectible until much later on. Many got thrown out rather than fixed.

Because they are plentiful, a B cue, even in prime original condition, would not be worth much more than $800 in my opinion.

Chris

IMHO some of the people involved with value promulagation were more interested in their own interests/agendas than realistically publishing cue values. Stating "whatever the buyer will pay" is much more accurate than some of the assinine numbers in the book. Their greed has rendered much of the book irrelevant. The late John Wright would have done a better job, on his own, of accurately pricing custom made cues than the "committee". The reason is simple--for apprx the last 7 or 8 rears of his career he did NOT own the majority of the cues he was pimping. As a broker it was incumbent that both the buyer and seller were comfortable with the deal. Hence, the majority of the cues in his publications were fairly valued. The book does have good,up to date, contact info for cue makers.

 

[cuenut]

From my dealing with John Wright, he was not unlike many dealers in that he downgraded the value of your cue and pumped up the ones he was selling. This was disappointing, particularly when he got started talking about Coker cues. They are good cues, but not, IMO, as good as he professed them to be. I am sure he was getting a good cut for the ones he sold. Can't blame a guy for trying to make a buck. Bottom line is you don't have to send the money if the deal isn't Wright (couldn't help myself, the pun was there to take).

The same can be said for those trying to quote the BB when selling. Many people looking to buy a cue on eBay don't have a BB to look at or understand, and may be taken advantage of because of it.

Likewise for the mottey that is for sale right now and is being scammed with a bid of $8500. The same mottey, posted two sellers higher at $25,000 to alert potential buyers is my best friend. He got the cue from Simon (The Diamond), and sold it to me. I have the cue in my possession as I type this message, but it is going back to my friend when he gets the money. The cue is not for sale.

 

[cueman]

From my dealing with John Wright, he was not unlike many dealers in that he downgraded the value of your cue and pumped up the ones he was selling. This was disappointing, particularly when he got started talking about Coker cues. They are good cues, but not, IMO, as good as he professed them to be. I am sure he was getting a good cut for the ones he sold. Can't blame a guy for trying to make a buck. Bottom line is you don't have to send the money if the deal isn't Wright (couldn't help myself, the pun was there to take).

QUOTE]

That is just how horse trading goes. As the book of Proverbs says: "The buyer says it is worthless, then boasts to his friends after he buys it."
John was quite the salesman. I do miss him.

 

[cuenut]

To Cueman.

Agreed, and he did have nice stuff, overall.

 

[TATE]

IMHO some of the people involved with value promulagation were more interested in their own interests/agendas than realistically publishing cue values. Stating "whatever the buyer will pay" is much more accurate than some of the assinine numbers in the book. Their greed has rendered much of the book irrelevant. The late John Wright would have done a better job, on his own, of accurately pricing custom made cues than the "committee". The reason is simple--for apprx the last 7 or 8 rears of his career he did NOT own the majority of the cues he was pimping. As a broker it was incumbent that both the buyer and seller were comfortable with the deal. Hence, the majority of the cues in his publications were fairly valued. The book does have good,up to date, contact info for cue makers.

Values are only as credible as the person setting them. I have resisted listing values for Palmers on my site, but I think I am going to do it a little at a time just to avoid confusion. Values will come with explanations and examples as well.

Prices are not easy to nail down. The identical cue can be sold by two sellers with different skill levels and fetch far different prices.

As a collector, I think I have the ultimate reason to be fair with prices. While I have a lot of cues in my collection, I am still acquiring examples, so I don't want to set above market values and unreasonable expectations in sellers. On the other hand, I don't want to list below market values and devalue my own purchases.

The other thing is, I might have access to information not readily available to others. This may greatly influence my decision making. For example, I might spot a cue that was made in 1968 that had low production and value it quite a bit higher for numerous reasons than an almost identical looking cue made in 1978 with a high run.

I recently got a pretty nice little e-mail from a collector of old Brunswicks. He sent out a simple value sheet on some models with a range of prices. It was well appreciated.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Likewise for the mottey that is for sale right now and is being scammed with a bid of $8500. The same mottey, posted two sellers higher at $25,000 to alert potential buyers is my best friend. He got the cue from Simon (The Diamond), and sold it to me. I have the cue in my possession as I type this message, but it is going back to my friend when he gets the money. The cue is not for sale.

Hi Scott!

I think E-bay needs to do what Paypal has done. When you register you have to give a credit card number and a bank account and get verified or you can't buy and sell. It's a shame and it won't stop identity theft entirely, but it will sure stop a lot of this stuff.

I don't bid on anything if the seller doesn't take paypal anymore.

Chris

 

[cuenut]

What really suck is that, if and when the cue really goes up for sale, everyone will likely doubt the sale.

My buddy also brought up a good point. It is not outside the realm of possibility that I may be at a pool hall somewhere, and a guy will come up to me and say, Hey, you no good SOB, I won that cue on eBay and sent you the money, and you didn't send the cue!!! Let's go outside for a talk.

 

[ribdoner]

From my dealing with John Wright, he was not unlike many dealers in that he downgraded the value of your cue and pumped up the ones he was selling. This was disappointing, particularly when he got started talking about Coker cues. They are good cues, but not, IMO, as good as he professed them to be. I am sure he was getting a good cut for the ones he sold. Can't blame a guy for trying to make a buck. Bottom line is you don't have to send the money if the deal isn't Wright (couldn't help myself, the pun was there to take).

QUOTE]

That is just how horse trading goes. As the book of Proverbs says: "The buyer says it is worthless, then boasts to his friends after he buys it."
John was quite the salesman. I do miss him.

You and "cuenut" are 110% CORRECT about JW's COKER cue pricing. On most occasions he owned them. This skewed his pricing philosophy. Very similiar to the thinking of some of the committee members involved with BB pricing.

 

[skins]

Wright and Coker

You and "cuenut" are 110% CORRECT about JW's COKER cue pricing. On most occasions he owned them. This skewed his pricing philosophy. Very similiar to the thinking of some of the committee members involved with BB pricing.

i remember when john pushed very hard for kersenbrock and southwest before they hit big. price breaks or not when john liked something he talked it up. i remember when i'd gone to see him and he showed me some of the first coker cues he got. he thought the feel, hit, fit and finnish were on par with southwest. it might have reminded him of the first time he had a kersenbrock in his hands. something to think about.

 

[ribdoner]

i remember when john pushed very hard for kersenbrock and southwest before they hit big. price breaks or not when john liked something he talked it up. i remember when i'd gone to see him and he showed me some of the first coker cues he got. he thought the feel, hit, fit and finnish were on par with southwest. it might have reminded him of the first time he had a kersenbrock in his hands. something to think about.

As SW and KB cue prices have continued to escalate on the secondary market it proved Wright's touting to be right. SW continued dedication to quality/consistancy may also be a factor.Coker cues ,as you know, have not done well on the secondary market. JW knew the hit/playability was not comparable to SW. JW asked on many occasions what made the SW hit/play so desireable and how could it be duplicated. Anyway,the point is mute--as per my original post John was very good at pricing custom cues he was selling on consignment. He had no hidden agenda---he had to be fair to the buyer and seller in order to make $ to keep the boats afloat.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

John was no saint when it came to selling cues, but he was just like any other salesman with basic marketing knowledge. He also had access to some of the niceset stuff in the Chicago area, and it was always a treat when he walked in with his big cases and layed them on the table for everyone to see.

Only one-eye had more.

 

[skins]

JW knew the hit/playability was not comparable to SW.

i knew john well, hung out with him every once in a while and was there the first week he got his first cokers and he said what i told you all. if he changed his opinion that's on him. my comment was based on the fact that sometimes john tried to create the "band wagon" for others to jump on rather than jumping on one himself thats all.