There is a guy that is a top rated player in our league and I was watching him the other day. Brings up some interesting points about what it really takes to get good. Now, I believe he will only be as good as he is now, where I plan to be even better in the near future. As I was watching though, he had no noticeable PSR, a short/choppy stroke, a small hitch at the end of his stroke as if trying to steer the ball in and yet he still runs racks. Now, I can for the most part hang with him but my attention as of late is on a straight stroke, a strict PSR, and controlling the cueball. My game is a little off right now as I have been focusing on these and learning some new aiming methods, but in the end, I believe they will definitely improve my game when they become second nature. Watching him though made me wonder how much of all the things on here we pay attention to really matters if you just want to be a top league player. As for top tournament play, I don't think he is solid enough.......Any thoughts on how this works........
How to be good without solid fundamentals
- Thread starter lawful777
- Start date
I'm gonna guess he's a guy who's played alot, particularly when he was younger and picked up some bad habits. He never sought out instruction and is now too stubborn and set in his ways to change them. This is only a guess as I've never met the guy but I know a few like him.
I agree with you. With some structure and discipline you can surpass him.
I agree with you. With some structure and discipline you can surpass him.
roadwarrior
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Well this is just my opinion, simply continue practicing the basic fundamentals. Just KEEP on playing, later on you won't notice that everything is working naturally.
Playing with someone whose better than you will speed up the process of becoming a better player. Learn from them.
Watch games & a lot of tutorials on you tube then practice alone.
Happy shooting!:smile:
Playing with someone whose better than you will speed up the process of becoming a better player. Learn from them.
Watch games & a lot of tutorials on you tube then practice alone.
Happy shooting!:smile:
Fundamentals are in place to help you achieve certain goals when executing a shot, such as staying still, stroking on the line of the shot, striking the cueball precisely, and hitting through the ball with an accelerating stroke. All of these things can be accomplished with any imaginable variety in technique, but solid fundamentals make doing so consistently much easier.
I've seem amateur players that are hellbent on improving practicing fundamentals but not making the progress they want. I think the issue is that they are focusing on the fundamental at hand ("stay still", "keep arm at 90' angle at strike") while ignoring what that fundamental is aiming to accomplish. The players that have crap fundamentals but still play a good speed may have a small advantage in that they are forced to focus on what they want the cue to accomplish on any given shot, without being able to rely on their fundamentals to help them do so.
I've seem amateur players that are hellbent on improving practicing fundamentals but not making the progress they want. I think the issue is that they are focusing on the fundamental at hand ("stay still", "keep arm at 90' angle at strike") while ignoring what that fundamental is aiming to accomplish. The players that have crap fundamentals but still play a good speed may have a small advantage in that they are forced to focus on what they want the cue to accomplish on any given shot, without being able to rely on their fundamentals to help them do so.
The physical part of the game is just not that difficult.
It doesn't really matter how you do it or what you look like as long as you can do it consistently.
You can "look" like you have world class form but if he's more consistent than you, you'll never be the better player.
It doesn't really matter how you do it or what you look like as long as you can do it consistently.
You can "look" like you have world class form but if he's more consistent than you, you'll never be the better player.
I started playing at like 6 or 7, now I"m 45. Starting that young I had the chicken wing from not being able to reach the table. Many players have it from playing as a kid. By no means do I have standard fundamentals, but my stroke is repeatable time after time, and IMO that is more important than what it looks like.
Most snooker players have the same look, but pool players have many different ways to play, and I can't fault any of them as long as it repeats. For years I wasted my time trying to force my game into the snooker mold. It was ok, but destroyed my game because I can't focus my eyes with my chin on the cue. I went back to my old way, made the needed compensations and I play better today then I ever have.
I have heard stories of guys laughing at Efrens stroke when he first came over here.....I bet they are laughing out the other side of their face now!
Most snooker players have the same look, but pool players have many different ways to play, and I can't fault any of them as long as it repeats. For years I wasted my time trying to force my game into the snooker mold. It was ok, but destroyed my game because I can't focus my eyes with my chin on the cue. I went back to my old way, made the needed compensations and I play better today then I ever have.
I have heard stories of guys laughing at Efrens stroke when he first came over here.....I bet they are laughing out the other side of their face now!
Mosconi and Hopkins both had what I call "punch" strokes.
Didn't hurt their game.
Years ago, I had a guy in my pool room who played 4-5 hrs. every day with the most flawless stroke I'd ever seen.
Problem was he couldn't run 4 balls in a row.
My thinking is, it doesn't make a lot of difference how you stroke the ball as long as you hit the same way every time.
Stones< got a stroke like an unfolding lawnchair but I do OK.
Didn't hurt their game.
Years ago, I had a guy in my pool room who played 4-5 hrs. every day with the most flawless stroke I'd ever seen.
Problem was he couldn't run 4 balls in a row.
My thinking is, it doesn't make a lot of difference how you stroke the ball as long as you hit the same way every time.
Stones< got a stroke like an unfolding lawnchair but I do OK.
why spend time wondering how he gets it to work
spend the time building a strong foundation:smile:
For further evidence mechanics in pool like golf are in the eye of the beholder. I have a disability that has prevented me from getting down on the ball and overtime, 30 yrs, I play almost standing straight up and I believe I play better now than I was 25 except for stamina and strength. More than one way to fry chicken and most are pretty tasty.
IMHO, knowledge and creativity can bring you a long way even with poor mechanics. You see it a lot with very elderly players. My grandfather played snooker into his 80's and still could still run a good score. His eyes were getting bad and he didn't have the muscles of a 20 year old but he played the game his whole life and could compensate with experience.That being said where mechanics become more evident is in shot making. On 7foots you can have piss poor mechanics and as long as your consistent you can still make most any shot on the table. Now as you progress up the sizes in tables were you are required to make more difficult shots and do more with the cue ball. That is when the mechanics play more of a part. That is why snooker pro's are more consistent with there mechanics. It is rare to see a pro with very unconventional stance or stroke. Try playing on a twelve foot after only playing on a seven and see how many balls in row you can pot. Or even draw a ball from half way down the table. This when bad mechanics become very evident.
Choosing good shot patterns and playing smarter (good safeties, smart misses, choosing the best ball to begin your run, control of cue ball and object ball speed, laying balls up in pocket etc) will affect a person's results and those things are not as noticeable as a straight, smooth, powerful stroke.
I think this post (and especially the bolded part) nails it.
I would venture a guess that the OP, even though he didn't mention table sizes, is from / plays in a bar table environment. This is where, in players that play exclusively in this environment, you'll see some of the most unorthodox or loosey-goosey or "wet noodle" fundamentals.
I admit, I've had my head handed to me in short races on a barbox, by players with the most unusual fundamentals, where I'd get to the table once, maybe twice, in a race to 5 or something, and I'm shooting out of a safety each time. But what I'll do, while that player is jacked-up on the high from the "win," is to invite him to play over on the 9-footer, and after they accept, jack up the bet. I don't have to mention that things reverse very quickly. Anyone can feel like Superman on the barbox -- when the longest shot you have to shoot is 3 feet (on either side of the object ball, between it and the cue ball, and between it and the pocket). And the assistance offered by mushy/spongey cushions with "assisting" pockets (as is often found on Valley barboxes) suddenly disappears in the big table environment. You have to have SOLID fundamentals, and that player suddenly finds himself upstream without a paddle.
While it's true that the pros aren't "cookie cutter" in their fundamentals (i.e. no two pros "look alike"), what is true is their delivery of the cue. It's dead-nuts straight. There are obvious exceptions, like Bustamante (with that loopy stroke), but for the most part, the lion's share of the players out there have found that which works for them to deliver the cue dead straight. Pick any pro (besides Bustamante
), and watch overhead camera angles of their cue delivery. Now, do the same for your neighborhood barbox player with those unorthodox fundamentals (i.e. if your poolroom has an upper or mezzanine level, or an elevated area somewhere, look down on him playing). See the difference?-Sean
I've spoke to Jim Furyk on a number of occasions, for those not familiar with him he's an extremely sucessfull pro golfer with many high level victories including major tourny wins and arguably one of the ugliest swings in the history of the game. His swing has been commented as looking like an octopus falling out of a tree.
Anyway, when asked about it he says in his mind, his swing is as perfectly straight and inline as a swing can be despite what it actually looks like. So for him, it takes absolutely no effort at all to keep it doing what it does. Obviously hes not at all interested in making it look good for anyone whos name is not written on the prize money checks.
"It (may be) better to look good than to feel good"
But Id go with which ever one gets the job done the best.
While it's true that the pros aren't "cookie cutter" in their fundamentals (i.e. no two pros "look alike"), what is true is their delivery of the cue. It's dead-nuts straight. There are obvious exceptions, like Bustamante (with that loopy stroke), but for the most part, the lion's share of the players out there have found that which works for them to deliver the cue dead straight. Pick any pro (besides Bustamante
-Sean
Even Bustamante has a straight delivery, once he hits the cue ball it goes straight through. He just takes a very interesting path to the cue ball
. The way I explain pool to newcomers is, when we break the game down we're essentially trying to put our cue on the line of aim and push straight through the cue ball. Everything we do, aiming, stance, grip etc. etc. is meant to facilitate that goal. Any piece of advice that hinders this endeavour shouldn't be incorporated into our game. What is determined to be proper fundamentals are essentially what has been agreed upon to be the easiest and most efficient of achieving said goal.
We can of course play proficient pool while ignoring proper mechanics, but I think most unorthodox players who play at the highest levels developed their playing style more through circumstance than design. I wouldn't ignore flaws in my game and simply hope that long hours of practice will help me overcome it, that's how people plateau for many years at a time imo. You can't really know whats going to end up an interesting quirk in your otherwise flawless game and what's going to tether you to your current level.
Golf Quote with some relevance - Harvey Penick said not to worry about an opponent with a good swing and a bad grip or a bad swing and a good grip. But he said to be wary of the guy with a bad grip and swing - if he is playing at your level, he really knows how to score.
I know.
Personally I don't advocate anyone trying to copy anyone, good or bad. I'm sure there may be an exception out there somewhere but out of how ever many billion people there are out there, I've yet to see 2 of them capable of doing the "Exact" same things with the "Exact" same results. I wouldnt waste my time trying to be the first,