How to get big money into pool?
- Thread starter the kirkwood ki
- Start date
FLICKit said:
It's the trump trick. The only thing that matters. When it is settled other things can be looked at. Until then.............show me the money!!!!
Teacherman said:
No, I wasn't kidding about this being the best way forward. I did however add that mistrust would be a barrier. I think it is a HUGE barrier, and as a result they will not be able to organize. Instead, any attempt to get together will end up with bodies strewn everywhere, kinda like the scene today. The "OK, I'll buy pool" sugar-daddy is more likely to get off the ground (assuming there is such a person), but he would have a heck of a time getting everyone (and he would need everyone, not just 1/2 of them) to sign-on (again, because of that mistrust thing).
Ya teacherman, I agree, it ain't gonna happen for a long while IMO. I was speaking of what is best, not what is reasonable, sorry for any confusion ...
Dave
Teacherman said:
Since you have continued to avoid the questions posed to you...
I will set an example and answer the following...
There is no $12,800,000 missing money. That's some ficticious # that you made up based on your own accounting schemes. So don't be ridiculous.
I don't have a full accounting of all their money. Nowhere near any position that would have that information, nor would I expect it to be posted. Let's see if you'd post all the accounting records for your Pool Hall Business over the last year.
That organization puts forth quite a bit of money for the pool players, including sponsoring most of the pro events that we all see on TV, especially the women's events. They brought in the top female poolplayer, Allison Fisher to town, as one of their promotional events. This is just one example of the positive impacts on the pool community.
I don't know where all their money is going, nor do I care to. It's irrelevant. I'm sure people at the upper echelon of the business are making money, as would be typical of any large corporation. They've built it up over the years, and as in any successful business money will be made. I have no qualms with that. If you get successful in your business, I'd have no qualms with you making money on it too. That's called business, as we all know.
Scam??? LOL.... Everything that isn't yours seems to fit under that category to you. Typical one trick pony... Your agenda is so set and consistent. Bash bash bash.... anything or any idea that isn't yours.
Not a league Operator. Just a player making my own decisions about what I like best, and always interested in gathering realistic information (unlike the one sided bashing that you consistently spew).
Somehow, I still think you'll avoid the issue of any positives from anything that isn't affiliated with you, or your idea.
Continue to bash bash bash... Your worthless rantings are just that.... Worthless. Hope that fulfills all your gay bashing fantasies that you have.
Still nothing positive from you, I see...
FLICKit said:
My pool room books are none of your business.
However, my pool league business regularly shows a P&L of what money was collected and where it went at the end of each session.
We print booklets for the playoffs that include the teams names, rosters, standings, tournament bracket.....every thing they need to compete in the tournament.......AND a Profit and Loss statement. Which by the way always showed the room adding some money.
The players know exactly where their league fees went, how much was league prize money, how much went into the singles events etc etc.
The real issue is not the exact numbers but what percentage of your fees is actually paid in prize money.
My league is just an example. Not trying to take it nationally. But, we paid 100% of their fees back to them. We hoped they'd spend and buy food and drink while they played.
I wouldn't expect the APA to pay 100% back. There are costs of doing business.
BUT.........................when they have 230,000 members and only $4.50 from each member goes to the prize fund I have to ask questions.
Assuming a 15 week session, 3 times per year, that leads to one national team event per year, that is 45 weeks times the league fee. I don't know what it is. Is $5 per week a fair number to use? If it is, the player pays in $225 per year and $4.50 of it goes to prize money. (I'm using your $1,000,000 prize number). That is 2%. Let me say that again 2% of all the money paid in goes back to the player?
Get your head out of the sand. Demand a fair shake.
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Dude,
There's $1 million given out at their national tournament, including 8 ball team, 8 ball singles, 9 ball team, 9 ball singles, and some doubles events ($25,000 here, $15,000 there, another $15,000 here, $$$ in numerous formats...., on top of that, they don't just pay first place, they pay many places down, they even pay over $1000 for all the teams that earn their way to Vegas). They also have many other tournaments, and many other payouts throughout (more than I can keep track of). The point is, in that venue, they provide $1 million to their players, which is alot of money that they spread.
Of course, you are just going to try to spin it around into a negative, cuz you're a one trick pony with your same agenda of bash bash bash.
When something better comes around, I'd be willing to look at that as well. Until then, the players will continue to choose what's best for them at the time.
End of discussion.... because the one-trick pony can only maintain one thought in his head, therefore there's no room for any discussion. Bash bash bash all you want, because we all know about your rep.
There's $1 million given out at their national tournament, including 8 ball team, 8 ball singles, 9 ball team, 9 ball singles, and some doubles events ($25,000 here, $15,000 there, another $15,000 here, $$$ in numerous formats...., on top of that, they don't just pay first place, they pay many places down, they even pay over $1000 for all the teams that earn their way to Vegas). They also have many other tournaments, and many other payouts throughout (more than I can keep track of). The point is, in that venue, they provide $1 million to their players, which is alot of money that they spread.
Of course, you are just going to try to spin it around into a negative, cuz you're a one trick pony with your same agenda of bash bash bash.
When something better comes around, I'd be willing to look at that as well. Until then, the players will continue to choose what's best for them at the time.
End of discussion.... because the one-trick pony can only maintain one thought in his head, therefore there's no room for any discussion. Bash bash bash all you want, because we all know about your rep.
FLICKit said:
I used the numbers you offered. Of course, now the numbers are different.
Get the numbers. The total prize money paid for 1 year. I'll do the math for you.
You know that if you come up with twice the amount of prize money you intially indicated then the payout would be 4%.
If you come up with 10 times (which you won't) then the payout is 20%
The old "get what's in his pocket into mine and make him feel good about it" as an example of business is fine when both parties know what they're doing.
But when Mr. Big cheats Mr. Little because Mr. Little doesn't know any better.........that's not business........that's stealing
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Teacherman said:
LOL.... You are still so clueless... No numbers have differed. You don't even have a clue of what numbers you are talkin about.
You try to compare one set of numbers to a different set of numbers, no wonder why you get faulty results.
BTW.... Looks like I nailed your response... One trick pony with a negative agenda.... That's all you are....
P.S. I answered your questions..... You still have responded to the question of what are the positives to any league other than your own? You're still dodging....
Go ahead and continue to degenerate.... One trick pony.
My opoinion of the APA financial structure.
230,000 members average 30 matches a year at $6 a pop. That's $41,000,000
LO pays out at least half in prize monies and paying for city tournies and Vegas trips. That's about 20 million left.
LO sends probably 30% franchise fee to national office. That's 6 million to national office, 14 million to LO's
National office uses that 6 million for tourneys, payouts and operations.
FWIW
230,000 members average 30 matches a year at $6 a pop. That's $41,000,000
LO pays out at least half in prize monies and paying for city tournies and Vegas trips. That's about 20 million left.
LO sends probably 30% franchise fee to national office. That's 6 million to national office, 14 million to LO's
National office uses that 6 million for tourneys, payouts and operations.
FWIW
Well, as long as you are in the bashing mode, do you Bash other leagues as well?
How about The Association for POOL league (TAP)? What bashes do you have about that one? It's a handicapped league as well that tried to be a copy cat.
What about BCA do you bash?
What about VNEA do you bash?
How about USPPA?
At least we'll see if you're consistent.... Equal opportunity basher.
Rant and rave about one.... you rant and rave about em all.... Let's see...
How about The Association for POOL league (TAP)? What bashes do you have about that one? It's a handicapped league as well that tried to be a copy cat.
What about BCA do you bash?
What about VNEA do you bash?
How about USPPA?
At least we'll see if you're consistent.... Equal opportunity basher.
Rant and rave about one.... you rant and rave about em all.... Let's see...
FLICKit said:
They're hard to defend aren't they?????
Get the numbers.
FLICKit said:
More the same with BCA and VNEA Both are bar pool leagues which can't work longterm for the growth of the sport.
BCA has recently changed hands. We'll have to see what the new owner offers. But, the old BCA was totally out of touch with competitive pool. They are a trade organization. Not the governing body they claim to be. Their referee staff is equivalent to the 3 Stooges. I assume the 3 Stooges knew nothing about pool. They were the 3 stooges, the BCA is the 100 (or more) Stooges. They are quite a bit different when it comes to a national tournament. They are/were? an association of independent leagues as opposed to a national league. They are closer to doing it right than the APA. Their prize money totals are way more in line than the APA.
Most importantly they don't have a handicap system that is the laughing stock of pool. A national handicap system is not possible. At least they know it and play without handicap.
The TAP and USSSA have never been in my area.
FLICKit said:
I have no idea what this means.
Get the numbers.
Teacherman said:
230,000 APA members, plus
60,000 BCA/whatever that new one is, plus
30,000 VNEA members, plus
50,000 various other league members (I'm guessing here)
equals approximately 370,000 members nationwide.
If each averages $5 a week for 25 weeks that equals $46,250,000 of gross revenue per year from league play only.
Now, add in additional player spending for drinks, food, etc. of $10 a night (too low?) and the total triples to about $150,000,000.
Now, add in spectators' spending of about 25 cents per night...ah forget that part, I guess. I'm not counting cues, etc. either.
That's a lot of dough. 150 million dollar market is nothing to sneeze at.
Jeff Livingston
chefjeff said:
So, if you're numbers are correct, in 26 years we've gotten 370,000 people currently playing pool league?????????
The US is approaching a population of 300,000,000. Therefore, we have about one tenth of one percent of the people playing organized pool league.
Doesn't sound like growth to me. Sounds like stagnation.
Can't work why? Simply because they are bar pool???Teacherman said:
That comment has no details.... Use real language other than 3 stooges.Teacherman said:
Elaborate....Teacherman said:
Where are you getting your facts from? Would like to see that info.Teacherman said:
Without any handicap system, then your appeal will be limited to only the pros. Even you said that you subdivide people into categories (at least advanced, and beginner) - that is a form of a handicap system. The player who takes first place in the beginner section wouldn't be able to, without you having classified everyone else as better. Next of all, how can you be sure that the top 10 players in the beginner section shouldn't be in the advanced section - and vice versa - the bottom 10 players in the advanced section shouldn't be in the beginner section. Sounds like your system is purely subjective based on nothing other than 1 person's opinions. Now, if you go into another pool hall, then their division of beginner and advanced will occur on a different standard than yours. Do you have any guidelines to base the decisions?Teacherman said:
Now... if you divide on beginner and advanced.... then how about intermediate? What if you want a level between beginner and intermediate... or between intermediate and advanced? What if there is too big of a difference between all of your beginners, can you then subdivide into a even more beginner.... and a better than beginner beginner? How about the advanced players, if only the same 5 players win all the time, do the other players remain financing those players, or do they break off like the cheap pool players you claim and find some other venue where they can come out with a little bit more positive money flow?
OK... probably inconsequential anyway...Teacherman said:
The younger you start anything the better. Bar leagues can not be the lead for the sports' growth because they can not (or will not) start youth programs.
Much easier to get 100 kids started playing pool seriously than 100 adults. The connection to organized pool must come at an age much younger than 21.
Referees....
All you need to know is that many referees are certified after a 2 hour crash course the day of the event. They simple are inept at the BCA.
Small computer crash......back now to finish.
BCA National Tournament....And handicapping.
It's an association of independent leagues who come together for a national tournament. APA is one big league. One big national league will never work because a national handicap system will never work. BCA has teams play scratch at the national level. Only way it can work.
Local inhouse handicapping can work. It can be used to attract beginners to competitive pool. It can be used to grow and give beginners a lift. But, for national tournaments, only scratch play has a chance. As it should be. Locally, giving a beginner a bump with a handicap is fine. But, completely taking away his drive to get better by using handicaps at regional or nationals is to the detriment of the player and the sport.
The money......
BCA is/was a nonprofit organization. They collect entry fees for their national tournament and pay their expenses then pay prize money out of what's left. I've multiplied entry fees X number of teams and compared it to payout and it is in line. Have no idea what their expenses are. But, have to assume there are some. Payout is fair. Would be better with a national association of pool rooms.
Much easier to get 100 kids started playing pool seriously than 100 adults. The connection to organized pool must come at an age much younger than 21.
Referees....
All you need to know is that many referees are certified after a 2 hour crash course the day of the event. They simple are inept at the BCA.
Small computer crash......back now to finish.
BCA National Tournament....And handicapping.
It's an association of independent leagues who come together for a national tournament. APA is one big league. One big national league will never work because a national handicap system will never work. BCA has teams play scratch at the national level. Only way it can work.
Local inhouse handicapping can work. It can be used to attract beginners to competitive pool. It can be used to grow and give beginners a lift. But, for national tournaments, only scratch play has a chance. As it should be. Locally, giving a beginner a bump with a handicap is fine. But, completely taking away his drive to get better by using handicaps at regional or nationals is to the detriment of the player and the sport.
The money......
BCA is/was a nonprofit organization. They collect entry fees for their national tournament and pay their expenses then pay prize money out of what's left. I've multiplied entry fees X number of teams and compared it to payout and it is in line. Have no idea what their expenses are. But, have to assume there are some. Payout is fair. Would be better with a national association of pool rooms.
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