How to know if you got a quality install?

[spoons]

For context, I'm not a mechanic. I'm a better than average player, and a reasonably effective DIY-er. For someone like me, how do I know that my installer did quality work? What types of things should I check?

We recently bought a new Diamond Pro-Am from a local dealer. The question comes from how the table plays. The rails play slow overall, and at the pocket facings, the ball almost completely dies. It just doesn't play like a Diamond. I've played on many over the years and I've played on tables with new cloth. I have a decent idea what I expect.

Secondary concerns are the amount of debris that we're finding in the ball return. Maybe my expectations aren't reasonable, but it seems like a quick hit with a vacuum before dropping the slate on top would have been part of the job.

What would you suggest, short of disassembling the table and somehow voiding warranties on the installation?

 

[boogieman]

If the rails play dead or funny, make sure the rail bolts are torqued to 15 foot pounds. This is something you can do yourself but you may have to buy a torque wrench. You can get some ok ones at harbor freight for around $20. Note this won't be the best torque wrench out there but it will work for what you need it to do.

Check the torque about once a month, often on new installations it will take quite a while for them to normalize, they will loosen or settle in through seasonal changes and you have to check them.

I bought a brand new one and they didn't clean the ball returns either. A new set of balls picked up dust from a gravel road from day one. I was seriously disappointed with the work they did. They didn't flush the seams before waxing, causing a bad roll off and they also didn't even touch the slate levelers. Hack work. I ended up buying new cloth and re-doing the install a month in because I couldn't stand it. I had to seam the slates and level them myself with the help of Glen (RKC) talking me through the leveling on the phone.

I'll be honest, I would rather have had them just drop it in the basement and go about the install myself. I didn't even call to complain, I didn't want them anywhere near my table after the hack job they did before. I would rather eat the cost and just do it right myself.

I honestly should have called Diamond to complain but I don't need the drama of potentially getting blackballed from future purchases since the ones who messed it up are the only distributor in my area.

Your table may be fine, but sorry to say, using an authorized dealer/installer means next to nothing. There's good work and hack work even in the official distributors.

 

[AtwoZ]

I just got a new 7’ pro am 3 piece slate. They did a good job with leveling the slate and stretching the cloth. But the ball return looked like it was in a barn for years. I spent a few hours cleaning the return out with a “mop” I made out of and old shaft and wash rags. Also the amount of residual buffing compound in all of the corners was disappointing.

 

[spoons]

If the rails play dead or funny, make sure the rail bolts are torqued to 15 foot pounds. This is something you can do yourself but you may have to buy a torque wrench. You can get some ok ones at harbor freight for around $20. Note this won't be the best torque wrench out there but it will work for what you need it to do.

Check the torque about once a month, often on new installations it will take quite a while for them to normalize, they will loosen or settle in through seasonal changes and you have to check them.

I bought a brand new one and they didn't clean the ball returns either. A new set of balls picked up dust from a gravel road from day one. I was seriously disappointed with the work they did. They didn't flush the seams before waxing, causing a bad roll off and they also didn't even touch the slate levelers. Hack work. I ended up buying new cloth and re-doing the install a month in because I couldn't stand it. I had to seam the slates and level them myself with the help of Glen (RKC) talking me through the leveling on the phone.

I'll be honest, I would rather have had them just drop it in the basement and go about the install myself. I didn't even call to complain, I didn't want them anywhere near my table after the hack job they did before. I would rather eat the cost and just do it right myself.

I honestly should have called Diamond to complain but I don't need the drama of potentially getting blackballed from future purchases since the ones who messed it up are the only distributor in my area.

Your table may be fine, but sorry to say, using an authorized dealer/installer means next to nothing. There's good work and hack work even in the official distributors.

Thanks for this! I actually did grab one of those torque wrenches today and tightened the bolts. ALL of them were under 5 ft lbs. After tightening, the rails play much more responsive. Still a little funny, but need more time to tell whether it’s the new cloth or the rails themselves.

Now I’m wondering what else should I check?

 

[gazman100]

If the rails play dead or funny, make sure the rail bolts are torqued to 15 foot pounds. This is something you can do yourself but you may have to buy a torque wrench. You can get some ok ones at harbor freight for around $20. Note this won't be the best torque wrench out there but it will work for what you need it to do.

Check the torque about once a month, often on new installations it will take quite a while for them to normalize, they will loosen or settle in through seasonal changes and you have to check them.

I bought a brand new one and they didn't clean the ball returns either. A new set of balls picked up dust from a gravel road from day one. I was seriously disappointed with the work they did. They didn't flush the seams before waxing, causing a bad roll off and they also didn't even touch the slate levelers. Hack work. I ended up buying new cloth and re-doing the install a month in because I couldn't stand it. I had to seam the slates and level them myself with the help of Glen (RKC) talking me through the leveling on the phone.

I'll be honest, I would rather have had them just drop it in the basement and go about the install myself. I didn't even call to complain, I didn't want them anywhere near my table after the hack job they did before. I would rather eat the cost and just do it right myself.

I honestly should have called Diamond to complain but I don't need the drama of potentially getting blackballed from future purchases since the ones who messed it up are the only distributor in my area.

Your table may be fine, but sorry to say, using an authorized dealer/installer means next to nothing. There's good work and hack work even in the official distributors.

Totally disgusting job by the so called installers.

 

[Sheldon]

A new Diamond was covered at the factory, so all your "installer" did was wheel it in and (hopefully) leveled it.
They generally do an OK job at the factory putting the cloth on, but you'll very often see stretch shadows on one side, and the grain of the cloth might wander a little.
Keep the rail bolts torqued, and either find a competent table tech that knows the leveling system come tune that up for you, or else get a machinist's level and watch a bunch of videos on how the system works and see if you can do it yourself.

 

[GoldCrown]

How do you know.? You’ll know.

 

[spoons]

A new Diamond was covered at the factory, so all your "installer" did was wheel it in and (hopefully) leveled it.
They generally do an OK job at the factory putting the cloth on, but you'll very often see stretch shadows on one side, and the grain of the cloth might wander a little.
Keep the rail bolts torqued, and either find a competent table tech that knows the leveling system come tune that up for you, or else get a machinist's level and watch a bunch of videos on how the system works and see if you can do it yourself.

It's a 3 piece slate in a basement, so they had to assemble ours on site. Appreciate the link though!

 

[Sheldon]

It's a 3 piece slate in a basement, so they had to assemble ours on site. Appreciate the link though!

Did they glue several spots along the seams? Unless it's an older Red Label, the leveling system is there on a 3 piece as well. If they did not secure the seams, you don't want to go jacking the wedges around, or it's very likely they will not stay even.

 

[jtompilot]

I’ve been told by a mechanic that I trust, that torquing the rail bolts can throw off the leveling. Maybe that’s why the hacks didn’t properly torque the rail bolts. He’s had discussions with Greg Sullivan about it.

 

[Sheldon]

I’ve been told by a mechanic that I trust, that torquing the rail bolts can throw off the leveling. Maybe that’s why the hacks didn’t properly torque the rail bolts. He’s had discussions with Greg Sullivan about it.

If it's set up properly to begin with it's very minimal. And why good mechanics will do the final leveling after the rails are torqued.

 

[Sheldon]

If it's not a smart table, you should be able to clean out most of the ball return without taking anything apart. You can reach through the ball return at the foot of the table, using a swiffer style mop or something similar and also through the slot at the head. Find someone small and skinny, and they can reach most of the pocket gullies from the pockets.

 

[jtompilot]

If it's set up properly to begin with it's very minimal. And why good mechanics will do the final leveling after the rails are torqued.

Part of the story goes something like this, Greg Sullivan wasn't able to level a couple of tables at the Rack. Don't the rail bolts go thru the slates and into the frame? How can you adjust the shims when the rails are torqued to 25 ft/lbs?

 

[Sheldon]

Part of the story goes something like this, Greg Sullivan wasn't able to level a couple of tables at the Rack. Don't the rail bolts go thru the slates and into the frame? How can you adjust the shims when the rails are torqued to 25 ft/lbs?

Yes, the rails bolt directly to (and through) the slate. The bolts are torqued to 15 foot pounds, and the shims will still move the slate quite a bit.
It really depends on how nice and nice and flat the system is under the slate, and who has jacked the wedges around. If it's bad, I'll back every wedge off and loosen the rails and start from scratch by leveling the frame, then assessing where it needs adjustment and go from there.
The only time I've not been able to get a Diamond leveled was when the slate was very crowned and the shims were not able to compensate. The slate got replaced.
Also, an improperly assembled Pro Am can cause the cabinet to be twisted, making leveling very difficult. This is rare, since most of them are built at the factory where they know what they're doing.

 

[boogieman]

It's a 3 piece slate in a basement, so they had to assemble ours on site. Appreciate the link though!

Wax can be used, but honestly if you superglue the seams they are like a 1 piece slate and the levelers won't cause any issue in the long run. Look up realkingcobra's youtube channel, he shows you the method. After the fiasco the installers did on mine that's what I did. If you're decently handy it is something a guy can do on their own. I'm not saying it will be easy but if you take your time and nitpick the process it will be as good as any and better than 90% of the installers out there. It's a sad fact but most installers either don't know what they are doing or don't take any pride in their work. A good installer, aka proper mechanic, is worth their weight in gold.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What boogie said. I used 2 shims total when leveling and setting up my red label.

I have setup the 2 tables I have owned. After all the horror stories about shitty mechanics, I will never pay somebody to do what I can do myself.

 

[3kushn]

If the rails play dead or funny, make sure the rail bolts are torqued to 15 foot pounds. This is something you can do yourself but you may have to buy a torque wrench. You can get some ok ones at harbor freight for around $20. Note this won't be the best torque wrench out there but it will work for what you need it to do.

Check the torque about once a month, often on new installations it will take quite a while for them to normalize, they will loosen or settle in through seasonal changes and you have to check them.

You also have to know how to pull a torque wrench. If you pull a quality wrench the same way every time, you'll get consistent results, but if your technique is flawed, you won't get the torque the wrench is set to.

I wouldn't recommend a $20 Harbor Freight torque wrench. I've seen their style wrenches click off with ZERO fastener rotation. It's called Side Load Error. Besides that, if a $20 wrench repeats the same as a $150 or $200 wrench. Why wouldn't assembly plants switch to Harbor Freight tools?

Just because the wrench clicks off is no guarantee that fastener is torqued to spec. And that's true even when using High End wrenches.

The main wrench I use and acquired through my past career cost around $7K. No need for that on rail bolts. Just demonstrating there's a very wide spread between China quality/reliability and true quality torque measuring devices.

I'd recommend spending at least $100 on a wrench and watching YouTube vids from well known torque wrench manufacturers on how to properly pull a wrench. Be sure that the click came when the bolt was moving.

If that didn't happen? In other words, you came back for another stroke and the wrench clicked off before any bolt movement?? Slightly back off that bolt, then move it forward till you get a click.

Torque is measured while the fastener is moving.

Gotta stop or I'll be writing a book on a forum.

 

[Sheldon]

I wouldn't recommend a $20 Harbor Freight torque wrench.

They're trash, pretty much any wrench you get there is not going to be good for a pool table. I have bought several Husky 1/4" drive torque wrenches and they work very well.
$40 or less on eBay. 40-200 inch-pounds puts 15 ft. lbs. near the top of the scale which is a good thing. You get a nice click there. (180 in. lbs. = 15 ft. lbs.)

Husky 1/4in Drive Torque Wrench for sale | eBay

Get the best deals for Husky 1/4in Drive Torque Wrench at eBay.com. We have a great online selection at the lowest prices with Fast & Free shipping on many items!

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I just bought another one for $30 (free shipping) when I cover a table for someone that cares about how it plays they'll usually jump at the chance to pick one up from me.

 

[fastone371]

They're trash, pretty much any wrench you get there is not going to be good for a pool table. I have bought several Husky 1/4" drive torque wrenches and they work very well.
$40 or less on eBay. 40-200 inch-pounds puts 15 ft. lbs. near the top of the scale which is a good thing. You get a nice click there. (180 in. lbs. = 15 ft. lbs.)

Husky 1/4in Drive Torque Wrench for sale | eBay

Get the best deals for Husky 1/4in Drive Torque Wrench at eBay.com. We have a great online selection at the lowest prices with Fast & Free shipping on many items!

www.ebay.com

I just bought another one for $30 (free shipping) when I cover a table for someone that cares about how it plays they'll usually jump at the chance to pick one up from me.

That's a heck of a lot better deal than the $600 I paid for my Snap On 1/4" drive inch pound wrench.