Hustling

[Snapshot9]

Mindset ...

You said it. Seeking someone out who can't play is dirty. Playing the drunk girl who was challenging anyone in the bar is acceptable. If it was a loud-mouthed punk, nobody would've had a problem with it. Also, if this forum wasn't such a clique, most people would've agreed with the original poster.

What is a clique? Just because a lot of people on here have been
through it, and most on both ends, and have come to the same
conclusions does not a clique make. So, a loud-mouth punk deserves
it, but noone else, huh? Stupid is as stupid does, and everyone is
responsible for their own actions. If someone obviously has a learning
disability, noone takes advantage of them. It's all part of 'learning
the ropes' in a Pool environment. What? You never had anyone take
advantage of you in a business environment? Whether it be a co-worker,
boss, or someone that worked for you? Haven't you ever heard the
saying, 'That you keep your head by keeping your wits about you'.
There are people in all walks of life waiting to take advantage of you
in one way or another, and the ONLY way that doesn't happen is because
of you, by YOU using your brain to guide your actions.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok, I thought long and hard before deciding to post to this. I am certainly going to be unpopular.

To me, it would be the kid's responsibility to look out for himself. When I was coming up in the pool room, and I was asked to play, I viewed my losses as my fault. Weather it be that I lost because I honestly didnt play good enough, or that I lost because I allowed myself to get in a bad game. I look at blaming the guy that supplied the game as a learning experience. I certainly didnt think I would go in a pool room and get my hand held. So many times when the lesser player gets beat, he blames everyone else. He hustled me, I had no chance, the asshole! Well, no one told me to say yes. I can sit in a pool room and look at all the angles. I decide for myself what is good for me and what isn't. Maybe next time I would have decided that I should've played someone I knew a a little better.

Same thing as what happens in a casino. Now there, you have some kid that just turned 21. He goes in and decides to play blackjack. He is hitting 15 against a 4, and splitting tens. He of course loses in this situation because he doesnt know the game. He tells you what happened and you tell him what bad game decisions he made. Do we get mad at the casino? No. They only supplied the game. The kid just didnt play good enough or have enough experience. So the kid here has gotta say to himself that he better learn the game better, and not come in playing so badly next time, without the proper knowledge on how to beat the game, and the house.

My point is the environment we are talking about is a pool room. Just as in any other area of life, you need to be alert and thinking clearly when engaging in matters of money, no matter where you are. It is the kid's fault if he chose to play someone he did not know. It is the kid's fault if he tried to bet money at a game that he wasn't skilled in. And it is the kid's fault if he were just saying yes to playing if he were trying to impress a couple of girls, letting his ego get in the way.

Now of course, there are going to be situations that are different. If the guy had asked him to play knowing that the kid was drunk, then it is shame on the guy. I am only commenting on the original post, which nowhere it was stated there was any alcohol involved. It is quite another thing when you are in bars dealing with drunk people. It is something else to deal with someone who cant make clear decisions based on the alcohol and then having someone take advantage of them in an inebriated state.

Ok, I am ready. Here it comes.

girlwon1

<grin>

You make some great points here - I was all in for the other side of this argument, but now I'm not sure. So I'm not weighing in on the debate per se.

However I have to tell you - as much as I like how you've argued this, you're inconsistent in your exclusion of drunks from responsibility for their own choices. If the kid in the hustler scenario is responsible for his decision to play, then the drunk you mention is responsible for his decision to be in a bar, inebriated, with cash in his pocket. He should know that's a good way to lose the ability to make clear decisions, and accept the consequences when he makes bad ones, just like the hustled egotistical kid.

I might go so far as to say that taking advantage of someone's inebriation is a lesser evil than taking advantage of their emotional weakness, but I dunno.

All in all, very nice post.

 

[MasterRacker]

I used to think that it would be really cool to have a good tour start up that was so strong it could ban players for being caught gambling, and that could clean the game up and get all gambling out of it. Watching the proliferation of TV poker, casinos, online casinos, etc. I now realize that will never happen in my lifetime. At a minimum though, it would be nice to get pool out of the gutter.

If you have to gamble, then by all means do so, but do it clean. No sharking, no spots, no laying down. Crush your opponent as thoroughly and quickly as you can. Laying back just to make a few more bucks is reprehensible. It's attempted theft, pure and simple. In a casino you know the odds and choose whether or not to try and beat them. In a perfect world where everyone is playing 100%, the person who's too stupid to know they're outclassed gets no sympathy. If someone knows they're up against a monster but are willing to pay for the lesson, then it's their choice. Put it all out there and play clean.

 

[girlwon1]

<grin>

You make some great points here - I was all in for the other side of this argument, but now I'm not sure. So I'm not weighing in on the debate per se.

However I have to tell you - as much as I like how you've argued this, you're inconsistent in your exclusion of drunks from responsibility for their own choices. If the kid in the hustler scenario is responsible for his decision to play, then the drunk you mention is responsible for his decision to be in a bar, inebriated, with cash in his pocket. He should know that's a good way to lose the ability to make clear decisions, and accept the consequences when he makes bad ones, just like the hustled egotistical kid.

I might go so far as to say that taking advantage of someone's inebriation is a lesser evil than taking advantage of their emotional weakness, but I dunno.

All in all, very nice post.

Thanks, AlterEgo. I thought someone might catch that. To me, playing someone pool drunk is the same as trying to take advantage of a girl that has had too much to drink. A person will do things that they would not normally do when drinking too much. Now, in the end, you could say the girl is still responsible for putting herself in that situation and next time she should know not to drink that much if she cant handle it. It is just that the person looking to benefit from the inebriation is just stealing, and trying to take advantage of someone who is handicapped in a way. A good man wouldnt take advantage of a girl that has had too much, just like a decent person wouldnt take advantage of someone playing pool also not being of clear mind to make a careful decision.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

"Stalling" By Playing Less Deliberately

After thinking about this "stalling" thing some more...I realized that I'm probably not stalling in the traditional sense.

The "stalling" that I do to keep people coming to the table does not consist of missing shots on purpose (which to me might be more easy to detect).

What I do is just shoot free and loose and don't think too many balls ahead when I'm playing a weaker player. By doing this (shooting much faster), I'm letting my subconscious take over and evaluate the table quickly. Sometimes this results in a runout (even when I'm "stalling", but much less frequently than when I'm taking my time and playing more deliberately).

While playing fast and loose, it seems like I can automatically figure-in a persons skill level with what type of leave that I can get away with giving them and still get a chance at the table.

I don't view playing this way a problem. Actually I think that everyone (whether they realize it or not) plays more deliberately when playing for larger stakes than for smaller ones and many people also do this when playing stronger players versus weaker players. For me, it can be just as enjoyable playing loose and fast (but not quite as well) as playing more slowly and deliberately (and a bit better). I think that this is true if you can obtain enjoyment from executing a few great shots during the game versus just focusing on winning the game.

I like nothing better than when a strong player comes to the table to give me a good challenge and I don't mind continuing to put money in the table if I have to (this just doesn't happen too often in the bars).

Always playing slowly and trying to "destroy" your opponent just isn't that enjoyable to me. Especially if it means that after one or two games I'm just sitting on my rear-end staring at my drink..ha, ha.

 

[bigsamho]

I was practicing at the local ph and I was watching this guy that plays pretty sporty, a good shortstop. Anyway, this young kid comes in with his girlfriend and another girl and he's banging the balls and he can't play a lick. This player asks him to play even for a few bucks and this player is stalling something awful. This kid can't get out with 3 balls left on the table! I don't know, I just don't like seeing someone get robbed like that. It's just so dishonest and I think this is one of the real problems with this game. There's just too many people in it that are so corrupt.

I once saw a sick job of hustling once. Im not going to mention any names or places it was so bad. There was a guy who got an inheritance from something and had decided to move out this way. His brother was in jail and hadnt collected his half of the inheritance yet. This guy started going to a pool hall and started gambling a little. Then all the locals and a few road players just started milking this guy every single day. They started buying him drugs and hookers! This guy blew all his money to these scavengers! They had this guy so messed up from everything that he thought that the people screwing him over were his new friends! Now remember he blew all of brothers share as well.

That pissed me off! That was the coldest thing Ive ever seen in hustling!

 

[BillYards]

I agree with Get A Grip... Some of the best nights I have ever had playing pool are exactly like he describes... Drop one set of quarters in the table and play all night, beating all of the competition. You never make much cash, but I think it is just so much fun. I have not had a night like that for a long time and I crave it like an addict craves drugs!

Back on the subject of the hustling: I like to think of it in this way: the kid who lost his money to a better player paid for a pool lesson. He will be a better player the next time he plays because of that. He got value for his money, unless he was just a complete idiot. I have no pity for stupid gamblers. The kid got something from the experience. He was not a victim.

 

[BillYards]

Well, bigsamho is talking about something a little different than matching up at billiards... I can't condone that type of behavior and have seen it firsthand myself. The guy that lost the money was most likely a loser that was going to squander it anyway. If he lost it in a billiards match, that is one thing, but to get sucked into a ring of theives like that... I am just shaking my head.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

I once saw a sick job of hustling once. Im not going to mention any names or places it was so bad. There was a guy who got an inheritance from something and had decided to move out this way. His brother was in jail and hadnt collected his half of the inheritance yet. This guy started going to a pool hall and started gambling a little. Then all the locals and a few road players just started milking this guy every single day. They started buying him drugs and hookers! This guy blew all his money to these scavengers! They had this guy so messed up from everything that he thought that the people screwing him over were his new friends! Now remember he blew all of brothers share as well.

That pissed me off! That was the coldest thing Ive ever seen in hustling!

I would venture to say that just about every pool hall has some regulars that would consider doing something like this. Ex-road players looking for someone to soak. Some guys pride themselves on making a living doing stuff like this.

They make a steady months pay playing regular matches with the same people (occasionally dumping to keep the guys thinking that they have a chance)...and then once in a while taking off a big score such as this...

 

[Purdman]

The guy who robbed the loud-mouthed drunk girl out of $100 did what 95% of you guys would've done.

That my friend is total BS. You just spoke for yourself.
Purdman
I would have probably shot her eyes right out of her frikking head and gave her the money back just to teach her a lesson.

 

[onepocketchump]

If a pick-pocket steals your wallet, is it your fault?? You didn't know any better, right? A guy breaks into your house, it's your fault, right. It's like stealing because someone wasn't watching you. If the guy can play a little and is just stupid, thats different. But if a guy can play and picks on someone who doesn't have a clue, it's stealing and it's no different than the guy who stole from the drunk woman who got mouthy and wanted to play for $100. That's my opinion. Sam

That's not exactly true. In the pickpocket and burglary scenario the thieves did not offer to let the victim attempt to do the same thing to them. In the pool scenario the hustler is offering a choice to the mark. Play me without knowing how good I am and if you win you will get money or choose not to play me and you don't risk losing any money.

Whenever two people play pool, poker, tiddlywinks or whatever for money then both of them are expecting to win. How would the story feel to those of you that think the kid got robbed if the rest of the story went like this; The next night the kid comes back and the hustler offers to play again and this time a railbird jumps up and says, "fer Christ's sake, didn't you rob him enough last night, I'll bet a thousand that you can't give him a fair game and beat him." So the hustler gives up the six out and posts a grand with the railbird and suddenly the kid starts making every lucky combination on the money balls, when he misses the six it goes three rails and gets safe and he wins the set comfortably. Turns out the local hustler needed the six out and the railbird was in on it.

The world is full of all kinds of devious people and many levels of deception. Anyone who bets on their skill on a pool game had better know damn well how they stack up or they will most likely lose.

In this story the kid got robbed for sure, but he left the front door wide open and invited the thief in and helped him carry the stuff to the car. That's just stupid. Most of us wouldn't do that to someone and most of us wouldn't leave ourselves open to having it done to us.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

Thanks, AlterEgo. I thought someone might catch that. To me, playing someone pool drunk is the same as trying to take advantage of a girl that has had too much to drink. A person will do things that they would not normally do when drinking too much. Now, in the end, you could say the girl is still responsible for putting herself in that situation and next time she should know not to drink that much if she cant handle it. It is just that the person looking to benefit from the inebriation is just stealing, and trying to take advantage of someone who is handicapped in a way. A good man wouldnt take advantage of a girl that has had too much, just like a decent person wouldnt take advantage of someone playing pool also not being of clear mind to make a careful decision.

That's a good way to look at it. I wouldn't try to play a retarded person and a drunk could be somewhat retarded. But, there are those times when a drunk is just a plain obnoxious ass and then it's good to bust them out of their drinking money so they don't get drunker and more obnoxious. )

John

 

[onepocketchump]

I once saw a sick job of hustling once. Im not going to mention any names or places it was so bad. There was a guy who got an inheritance from something and had decided to move out this way. His brother was in jail and hadnt collected his half of the inheritance yet. This guy started going to a pool hall and started gambling a little. Then all the locals and a few road players just started milking this guy every single day. They started buying him drugs and hookers! This guy blew all his money to these scavengers! They had this guy so messed up from everything that he thought that the people screwing him over were his new friends! Now remember he blew all of brothers share as well.

That pissed me off! That was the coldest thing Ive ever seen in hustling!

Why didn't you step in and stop it? If you saw a lady getting robbed in the street would you do something or would you turn away and complain about it later?

Apathy is worse than violence.

John

 

[9balldiva]

I think it' scalled hustling for a reason. Gamblers look for hustles...it's all part of the world of pool players. You don't have to shoot like Archer to be a hustler either.

I have made some good hustles with my game, but it is easier to hustle as a chick. I would sit on the rail at my pool hall and watch people on the weekends when it got busy, and pick out a couple guys that looked a little on the cocky side playing with their friends. After a while I would rent the table next to them, and shoot balls around. Eventually, some kind of conversation will spark, and they just take the bait. I'll build the ego up a little, then let them think I am dissing them in front of their "boys" by telling them I bet I could beat them. Then, I trap them in a game...an ahead set, or a long race...

This doens't make me a bad person.

 

[T-dog]

I was practicing at the local ph and I was watching this guy that plays pretty sporty, a good shortstop. Anyway, this young kid comes in with his girlfriend and another girl and he's banging the balls and he can't play a lick. This player asks him to play even for a few bucks and this player is stalling something awful. This kid can't get out with 3 balls left on the table! I don't know, I just don't like seeing someone get robbed like that. It's just so dishonest and I think this is one of the real problems with this game. There's just too many people in it that are so corrupt.

I suppose you also think a CEO that makes 15 million a year should say " you know what I'm not really worth 15 million, why dont you just go ahead and pay me 250k a year. give the rest to the people who havent put in as much time and hasnt (practice)

 

[bigsamho]

Why didn't you step in and stop it? If you saw a lady getting robbed in the street would you do something or would you turn away and complain about it later?

Apathy is worse than violence.

John

The pool hall where it was taking place at is about an hour and a half away from my where I live. I only go there sometimes on weekends. I only witnessed it one night but I wasnt going to get mixed into this situation. There were some people involved that I dont get along with because of stuff like this. One of them threw me in the river once for $1,000 and then once I told some people about what he did, he had the nerve to threaten me. I mean sure I couldve made a scene but it was best for me just to turn my head.

 

[Rickw]

Ok, I thought long and hard before deciding to post to this. I am certainly going to be unpopular.

To me, it would be the kid's responsibility to look out for himself. When I was coming up in the pool room, and I was asked to play, I viewed my losses as my fault. Weather it be that I lost because I honestly didnt play good enough, or that I lost because I allowed myself to get in a bad game. I look at the guy that supplied the game as a learning experience. I certainly didnt think I would go in a pool room and get my hand held. So many times when the lesser player gets beat, he blames everyone else. He hustled me, I had no chance, the asshole! Well, no one told me to say yes. I can sit in a pool room and look at all the angles. I decide for myself what is good for me and what isn't. Maybe next time I would have decided that I should've played someone I knew a a little better.

Same thing as what happens in a casino. Now there, you have some kid that just turned 21. He goes in and decides to play blackjack. He is hitting 15 against a 4, and splitting tens. He of course loses in this situation because he doesnt know the game. He tells you what happened and you tell him what bad game decisions he made. Do we get mad at the casino? No. They only supplied the game. The kid just didnt play good enough or have enough experience. So the kid here has gotta say to himself that he better learn the game better, and not come in playing so badly next time, without the proper knowledge on how to beat the game, and the house.

My point is the environment we are talking about is a pool room. Just as in any other area of life, you need to be alert and thinking clearly when engaging in matters of money, no matter where you are. It is the kid's fault if he chose to play someone he did not know. It is the kid's fault if he tried to bet money at a game that he wasn't skilled in. And it is the kid's fault if he were just saying yes to playing if he were trying to impress a couple of girls, letting his ego get in the way.

Now of course, there are going to be situations that are different. If the guy had asked him to play knowing that the kid was drunk, then it is shame on the guy. I am only commenting on the original post, which nowhere it was stated there was any alcohol involved. It is quite another thing when you are in bars dealing with drunk people. It is something else to deal with someone who cant make clear decisions based on the alcohol and then having someone take advantage of them in an inebriated state.

Ok, I am ready. Here it comes.

girlwon1

I absolutely do not absolve the kid for his actions. He has to take responsibility for what he does or doesn't do. Actually, this isn't even about the kid, it's about the player. I DO NOT THINK IT IS MORALLY ACCEPTABLE TO STALL IN ORDER TO TAKE SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY. That's the whole point. That's just my opinion. I was disgusted with the player for doing what he was doing.

 

[Rickw]

I suppose you also think a CEO that makes 15 million a year should say " you know what I'm not really worth 15 million, why dont you just go ahead and pay me 250k a year. give the rest to the people who havent put in as much time and hasnt (practice)

I don't see any correlation here to the story. A CEO doesn't stall to get the 15 million, he had to prove his worth throughout a period of time. This 15 mil a year CEO might bring in 200 mil to the company per annum so what's 15 mil?

 

[Rickw]

The pool hall where it was taking place at is about an hour and a half away from my where I live. I only go there sometimes on weekends. I only witnessed it one night but I wasnt going to get mixed into this situation. There were some people involved that I dont get along with because of stuff like this. One of them threw me in the river once for $1,000 and then once I told some people about what he did, he had the nerve to threaten me. I mean sure I couldve made a scene but it was best for me just to turn my head.

Did you do anything to this guy for throwing you in the river? Doesn't he ever walk down a dark alley? You should at least give him a little limp or something!

 

[satman]

I understand your point.

That's not exactly true. In the pickpocket and burglary scenario the thieves did not offer to let the victim attempt to do the same thing to them. In the pool scenario the hustler is offering a choice to the mark. Play me without knowing how good I am and if you win you will get money or choose not to play me and you don't risk losing any money.

Whenever two people play pool, poker, tiddlywinks or whatever for money then both of them are expecting to win. How would the story feel to those of you that think the kid got robbed if the rest of the story went like this; The next night the kid comes back and the hustler offers to play again and this time a railbird jumps up and says, "fer Christ's sake, didn't you rob him enough last night, I'll bet a thousand that you can't give him a fair game and beat him." So the hustler gives up the six out and posts a grand with the railbird and suddenly the kid starts making every lucky combination on the money balls, when he misses the six it goes three rails and gets safe and he wins the set comfortably. Turns out the local hustler needed the six out and the railbird was in on it.

The world is full of all kinds of devious people and many levels of deception. Anyone who bets on their skill on a pool game had better know damn well how they stack up or they will most likely lose.

In this story the kid got robbed for sure, but he left the front door wide open and invited the thief in and helped him carry the stuff to the car. That's just stupid. Most of us wouldn't do that to someone and most of us wouldn't leave ourselves open to having it done to us.

John

I guess you're right to some extent about the pickpocket. If a hustler gets hustled, it's one thing. If the guy could play somewhat, it's another. But if I walk into a place and match up with some kid who can't make 3 balls in a row, I'm stealing. If it's a guy who will occasionally run a rack and wants to play for $5-10 and knows how I play or has been told I play well. They're risking their dough. But to sneek up on unsuspecting kids in the pool room, I think it's stealing. It's all about your own attitude toward the situation. You can justify any situation if you look hard enough. Sam