I Need Advice on Antique Table

[Ssonerai]

Ideally, frame construction will be the most stable (move the least differentially with seasons and stay flatter at the slate support surface) if the construction of the support elements is the same.

If you ever addressed whether this is a 4 or 5 ply frame, sorry, I missed it?

There are a couple ways to veneer solid wood.

My BBC familiarity is with the Later 1920’s tables. The frame rails are glued up thick staves of poplar cross banded on both sides with thickish poplar veneers to restrain shrinkage/expansion. Then the face/feature veneer is again parallel to the long grain of the poplar core. If the assembly never sees extreme damp or humidity fluctuations it is quite stable and behaves almost like plywood so long as the cross band integrity is not compromissed.

Alternately, staves of the structural material can be glued up with feature veneer only (no cross band) applied to one side only or to both sides. This type construction behaves like solid lumber and shrinks/expands with the seasons & ambient humidity level.

If your frame rails are 4 or 5 ply, then adding plywood to both sides of the part you describe will not necessarily be compromising.
If the frame rails have no cross bands, then it might be better to use solid lumber so one part does not persist at the manufactured size while the rest of the frame shrinks and expands with the seasons. (Slate resting on the crossband rail moves up & down compared to the frame rails) if the cross rail register surface is low in the frame.

Similarly for wide solid boards everything that are supported at one edge and expected to maintain the same fluctuating width at the opposite edge among pieces needs to be the same cut. QS to QS & flat sawn to flat sawn.

For structural purposes 8/4 or 10/4 poplar and African mahogany behave about the same. Similar weight, availability,price. A.m.is coarser grain. Both have similar stability: good in straight grain especially quarter saw pieces. Less so for figured & face cuts. Northeast white pine with no knots is quite stable assuming section dimensions commensurate with load.

smt

 

[BeerBrewer]

Ssonerai.....I am not sure what you mean by a 4 or 5 ply frame. So I thought it would be helpful if I posted a picture of what the frame of my table would look like if assembled. Keep in mind this is NOT my table, but mine is exactly the same, only in pieces. All of the wood in the frame and sides is 1-7/8" thick solid poplar. Even the sides are 1-7/8" solid poplar, only these have white oak veneer on the outside. There is no other veneer used on the table except on the outside of the table and on the sides of the rails. The inside of my table, like this one, is stained red. I assume it must have been some sort of sealer, but I'm not sure.

On my table the center beam (the arrow pointing to it) has developed some deep checking in the wood. I'd also like to note that the beam I'm pointing to in the pic appears to be thinner than the one in my table. It looks like they uses thinner wood and beefed up the two edges, mine is 1-7/8" think all the way across. The beam seems solid, but I don't trust it, so I am considering either replacing it with new poplar or possibly reinforcing it by gluing pieces 3/4" plywood on either side.

The link below is where I found the picture. I wish I had those beautiful turned legs.
https://www.hometalk.com/161737/antique-brunswick-billiard-table-restoration-project

 

[Dan_B]

at first thought...
man! he's moving right along, thinking I'm not sure I'd want the wife's glass hutch clock so close, then..
I read the instruction's, your dilemma.

That interior part? make a new one, laminated like a beam, same dimension's and all.

 

[BeerBrewer]

at first thought...
man! he's moving right along, thinking I'm not sure I'd want the wife's glass hutch so close, then..
I read the instruction's, your dilemma.

That interior part? make a new one, laminated like a beam, same dimension's and all.

Sorry, but that isn't my actual table in the pic above (I wish!). It is just a pic of the same model table. I only attached it so people could see how my table frame is supposed to fit together.

Mine is still in pieces in my basement. It's almost 100% apart right now. I even disassembled all of the smaller pieces in corner supports of the frame, that would rest on the legs. Now that they have been taken all apart, I am going to replace all of the broken/cracked pieces. Then I'm going to re-glue the joints as I put it back together, a slow process. My goal is reassemble and bolt the frame back together (minus the legs) to make sure everything still will fit back together. If it does, as I suspect, then I'll look to replace the legs. I'll either buy replacements or I'll make them, I haven't decided. Once all that is done, I'll re-veneer, stain and finish (varnish or poly) the table. Then I'll have to redo the leather pockets, put new cloth on it and get it set all up. I'm saving the more expensive pieces for last. As of right now, I've only got time and $45 invested in the table (for oak and poplar).

 

[Ssonerai]

...I am not sure what you mean by a 4 or 5 ply frame

explained in the text: staved solid lumber (poplar)center core, thick poplar crossbands each side, parallel veneer on face over the crossbands (= 4 plies) and sometimes on the back (+ additional ply = 5 plies total. Read the description again - BBC did it for stability. To make It act like plywood so it barely shrinks /expands over seasons.

You state yours has no cross bands, only stave construction + one only face veneer (2 total plies, none crosswise). Hence it will behave like solid lumber and shrink/expand over the seasons unless you have whole house all-season humidity control. Therefore you should just use a staved solid piece of lumber for your cross piece so it behaves the same. If you put plywood there, it will not shrink/expand with seasons but solid lumber outer frame will. Since the cross frames locate to the perimeter frames at the *bottom*, sometimes the PFs & cfs will be flush at the slate support surface (top), other times of the year they will have a step depending if the PFs are expanded or shrunk. Since (you say) they are solid wood.

For the reasons stated in this post & previous, the cut of the lumber matters, too. QS shrinks/expands much less than slab (face) sawn lumber. So QS to QS; Face sawn to FS.

OTOH, you can just grab some lumber &/or plywood and glue it back together & it will probably be fine. l’m trying to explain how a woodworker thinks and utilizes wood technology to maximize stability in hardwood constructions with an inherently unstable material. Since you basically asked the question about which method to use for th cross piece. But don’t let theory get in the way of production.

good luck.
smt

 

[BeerBrewer]

Ssonerai....... Now I understand, sometimes I'm a tad dense. Yes, I agree, you raise an issue that I had not thought about. I will use solid poplar if I replace that beam. I've restored quite a few pieces of antique furniture in my day, some veneered some not. This is first time I'm working on an antique piece that is only veneered on one side and one that is made with such thick material.

 

[BeerBrewer]

I thought a progress report was in order.

So far I've taken the table completely apart. I disassembled all but one corner and I cleaned and scrubbed everything. I've sanded down all of the rails and made a new rail using a piece of white oak. This one will replace the rail with the poor repair in the old pics. You can see the new rail it in the photo below, it just needs to re-glued the bottom section of the rail. I also picked up 10' x 14" x 1-3/4" piece of poplar to replace the broken/damaged pieces of the frame. I had to drive an hour and half to get it and it set me back just over $100. I made a new end piece for the tail end for the table. You can both the old and new tail pieces in the photo below. The old one was too just checked and cracked to be trusted. I was afraid the cracks would carry into the new veneer, so I made a new one. I've also found that no two pieces are the same on this table, each is a slightly different size and cut at slightly different angles. I had a heck of time cutting the compound miters since my radial arm saw could not cut completely through because the arm is too short. So all of the miter cuts were partially cut but hand and fine tuned with a block plane. I also made a new side corner piece, that is also shown in the pick.

I also bought new mother of pearl inlays for the entire table, since a lot were missing. I haven't installed the diamond inlays yet because I'm not sure if I should do it be before or after I put the polyurethane finish on. Thoughts???

I still have lots of broken support pieces to cut out. Once I have all the cracked and broken pieces replaces, I glue it all back together and assemble the basic frame of the table.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

For the diamond inlays, you may be able find some old piano keys at a piano repair and shape them.

 

[angluse]

I wasn't sure about doing finish before or after MOP inlays either. At the time I didn't know what kind of finish my rails would get.
So I did a test run, on a different piece of wood. I tried oil varnish (Waterlox), and also Spar Urethane, I don't know how that compares to the Poly you're using.
Regardless of finish type, setting the inlays after finish, seemed the best solution to me.
I went with Waterlox, I've been very happy with it.

Thanks for sharing your project.

 

[BeerBrewer]

I hadn't thought about using shellac, its just been a very long time since I last used it. The only reason I was leaning towards polyurethane was because of its durability and pool tables tend to get a bit of abuse. Don't get me wrong, I know that this is at least 120 year old billiard table, but it isn't that rare or valuable. I've seen the same table in mint condition sell for $10,000 but it had the original legs and its original veneer. Mine doesn't have either, so it won't command anywhere near that value when finished. I am basically just building a billiard table that I hope will become a family heirloom.

I've searched the web and called a number of billiard table parts places and restorers, unfortunately none of them had "original looking" replacement legs in stock. They all said that they are virtually impossible find. So that means that I either have to buy a turned replacement leg (which are all made out of red oak or poplar) or I make them myself. In either case that greatly diminishes the value and historical significance of the table.

I've been told by Brunswick and a couple billiard table experts that my table is a Brunswick Narragansett (pictured below on the right) made between 1880 and 1906. In the pic you can see the impossible to find beautiful turned turned legs. The picture on the lower left is a Brunswick Algeria. It is very similar to the Narragansett except its got square legs. Since I can't find replacement Narragansett legs, my plan is to make copies of the Algeria legs and use them on my table. Hopefully my table will ultimately look like an antique Brunswick Algeria, but it won't actually be one. So I'm not sure how closely I should follow antique restoration guidelines, but I am certainly open to suggestions and guidance. Having said all that I intend to use hide glue when reassembling the table and applying the new veneer and I'm not planning to using any materials that wouldn't have been used originally like plywood or epoxy. Honestly applying the finish is so far out in the future, I hadn't really thought much about it, but I will definitely consider using it when the time comes.

 

[HNTFSH]

I hadn't thought about using shellac, its just been a very long time since I last used it. The only reason I was leaning towards polyurethane was because of its durability and pool tables tend to get a bit of abuse. Don't get me wrong, I know that this is at least 120 year old billiard table, but it isn't that rare or valuable. I've seen the same table in mint condition sell for $10,000 but it had the original legs and its original veneer. Mine doesn't have either, so it won't command anywhere near that value when finished. I am basically just building a billiard table that I hope will become a family heirloom.

I've searched the web and called a number of billiard table parts places and restorers, unfortunately none of them had "original looking" replacement legs in stock. They all said that they are virtually impossible find. So that means that I either have to buy a turned replacement leg (which are all made out of red oak or poplar) or I make them myself. In either case that greatly diminishes the value and historical significance of the table.

I've been told by Brunswick and a couple billiard table experts that my table is a Brunswick Narragansett (pictured below on the right) made between 1880 and 1906. In the pic you can see the impossible to find beautiful turned turned legs. The picture on the lower left is a Brunswick Algeria. It is very similar to the Narragansett except its got square legs. Since I can't find replacement Narragansett legs, my plan is to make copies of the Algeria legs and use them on my table. Hopefully my table will ultimately look like an antique Brunswick Algeria, but it won't actually be one. So I'm not sure how closely I should follow antique restoration guidelines, but I am certainly open to suggestions and guidance. Having said all that I intend to use hide glue when reassembling the table and applying the new veneer and I'm not planning to using any materials that wouldn't have been used originally like plywood or epoxy. Honestly applying the finish is so far out in the future, I hadn't really thought much about it, but I will definitely consider using it when the time comes.

I have an 1899 LC Smith Shotgun. It's in "solid" shape but to be worth more than 300 hundo or so, I'd have to get it professionally refinished. Like your table, it requires a lot of specialty parts or reproduction piece here and there. Nothing serious though.

Refinishing that gun to a pristine condition would run about $2,300. After it's all done, guess what? It'll be worth $2,300.

 

[BeerBrewer]

I have an 1899 LC Smith Shotgun. It's in "solid" shape but to be worth more than 300 hundo or so, I'd have to get it professionally refinished. Like your table, it requires a lot of specialty parts or reproduction piece here and there. Nothing serious though.

Refinishing that gun to a pristine condition would run about $2,300. After it's all done, guess what? It'll be worth $2,300.

That's exactly where I'm at, maybe even a tad worse. The "professional" restorers told me that having them restore the table would not be worth their time and/or effort. They said it cost at least 2 or 3 times what it would be worth in the end. One even asked me if had a fire place in the house! I enjoy wood working, so this is fun for me. I'm almost finished repairing all of the broken/cracked frame pieces and I'm getting ready to reassemble it. I

That is one nice shot gun!

 

[Ssonerai]

Just in case any of the methods stuff is directed at suggestions made by me

It's difficult to imagine that many old BBC or other "antique" tables are critiqued, inspected, or valued like say a piece of Roentgen furniture or a Guaneri fiddle. The value in a pool table is, "does it play the way it is expected to", and is it (somewhat) durable? There are no conservator standards for materials that affect value; in fact if modern materials are better, then it is probably better to use them.

Initially i suggested -hot- hide glue (not brown glue in a squeeze bottle) because it is the easiest, most reliable, and most durable method to re-constitute and adhere original veneers that were applied with that method at the factory. No other material will bond as easily to the old stuff in place nor give the opportunity to re-work it if the first application does not go well & gels prematurely. However, it is a skill/experience thing to have it seem as convenient as it is. In your case you decided to remove the old veneer and not re-constitute so hot hide glue probably has limited if any application to your table.

Any comments about padded shellac ("french polish") made from flakes/NOT out of a can are in the same camp. It is just so darn easy to use, build, modify, strip, redo, etc, etc. & no orange peel. OTOH it is not as hard (scratch resistant) as poly. OTOH it is easy to repair without stripping.

I use WEST epoxy a lot in old work so long as it makes sense and the joins are new wood or uncontaminated old. Typically use WEST for applying new veneers on clean new work because it puts no moisture into the materials. I saw all my own veneers to get stuff at least 1/28" thick & have never used commercial veneers for featurewood. Happy to use titebond for glue blocks, etc, etc, too.

Basically I'm lazy, and use the methods that get the best results fastest.
Also don't have a perception that any but a few old tables have any "antique" value beyond playability and what a person or their wife might prefer to look at. OTOH if you can tell a good story (never had that charm myself) there are clearly a lot of people at the high end willing to pay for some examples, again if the story is persuasive.

You do seem to be short-changing yourself not turning a set of legs for that since you mention liking woodwork, and that you really seem to like the old style?

Good luck.
We all appreciate that you keep reporting.

smt

PS re my own BBC project reported elsewhere in AZB: I've commented a couple times that "next time" probably the best method to re-do one of these is strip any loose veneer, round all the corners, trowel on the bondo, sand it smooth & fair, and apply a few coats of satin black paint. Then make some stainless hardware/pocket "castings/accents", redo the rails, and play.

 

[BeerBrewer]

Oh....I'd love to be able to turn my own billiard table legs. Unfortunately I don't own now nor have I ever owned a lathe. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have one, but I don't have the space in my shop right now.

As for hot hide glue....I mixed up my first batch this evening. I bought a couple lbs of Milligan & Higgins (192 & 251) hide glue and I intend to "play" with it a little tomorrow. I'd like to see for my self how fast it sets it up and how easy or hard it is work with before I start gluing up the joints on the table.

Where can I find a link to your BBC project?

 

[Ssonerai]

Where can I find a link to your BBC project?

Back on page 1.), post #8 of this thread.
click on the link there "library resource..."

If you follow that to the end it can be seen i finished the frame/"cabinet" back then.
Hoping to make a set of convertible rails for it with help from one of the techs on here.
Currently in the throes of house renovation mentioned. Also side tracked for a bit by paying work to top up funds.....

Not sure what actually interests you, this is a direct link to me working out a process, and also includes making the basic veneers and stringing materials. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...hammer-veneer-350757/?highlight=hammer+veneer AFA as re-veneering, my evolved process became "1.) shovel in the hot hide glue with a brush until it gels" HHG runs like water so easier to get in than any other glue, and it puddles in the bottom so it can be sort of squeeged around if the putty knives don't quite reach. After the glue gels, 2.) i take the clothes iron and iron the veneer until the glue is running like water again, then hammer (squeegee) it down and out, and often apply a plastic face caul and clamp.

smt

 

[BeerBrewer]

I think I may have majorly screwed up! My table frame may NOT be poplar after all! My first guess was that it was made out of pine but I was told by several that was unlikely and that it was probably made out of poplar. Since the frame was painted red on one side and had old hide glue and all scuffed up on the other, I could not see the grain or know for sure what type of wood it was. Since I was using the old cracked and broken frame pieces at templates to assist in cutting out the new frame pieces, I was especially careful not to dent or damage the old pieces in any way. Well now that I'm finished cutting out all of the new frame pieces, I decided to cut one of old broken pieces in half, just to see what the raw wood looked and smelled like. Well, it looks and smells like pine! So now what???

So now my question, does it matter that one end of the table is mostly poplar and the other end pine?

 

[JessEm]

So now my question, does it matter that one end of the table is mostly poplar and the other end pine?

From a load-bearing standpoint? Doubtful, as I believe they're both considered soft-woods, and relatively similar. You could refer to a construction material load-bearing/ span chart, but I think any difference is splitting hairs.

 

[Ssonerai]

So now my question, does it matter that one end of the table is mostly poplar and the other end pine?

No. not for structure or stability.
Both woods are similar in materials characteristics and stability ("assuming" north east white pine as the pine version).
AFA stability, in these 2 materials, the one with the best cut will be the most stable. Face cut blanks with a lot of figure will be less so. But the average will be the same AFA making a choice.
Poplar will hold screws better, and is a little more dent resistant.
Structurally, poplar is not that far off from sitka spruce in terms of strength to weight, which is the ladder & aircraft standard.
A good finisher can make poplar look like mahogany or cherry, e.g..
Pine will always look like pine, no matter what the stain/finish regime, it will always just look like stained pine.

I would venture a guess that like many products of the era, BBC might have started out using pine for cored work? However, due to the ease and wide spread use of that material, the clear stuff in big pine pieces probably became more expensive, as it usually is today. So poplar, while being just as good, was/is not as popular Hence cheaper to source in big clear pieces. Pine has gone in and out of fashion as a feature wood as well as cores and secondary. There has never been an era where poplar was a desired feature wood. And for faking higher end materials, other cheap soft hardwoods are easier. Green (heart) poplar is more stable, but it also interferes with faking a more expensive wood as feature face. Poplar was the go-to wood for 2-ply backers & cores for all sorts of high end stuff, though. Poplar is one of those rare materials that might be better for many of the apps it is used for, while being cheaper than the similar alternatives. (This might not seem obvious buying retail, less than thousand ft quantities, though)

 

[BeerBrewer]

Well I’ve made some progress on the Billiard table restoration, so I thought that post a few pics.

I still have more work to do on the table frame frame, like drill the holes for the leg bolts and tighten up a joint etc, but I wanted to see if it still fit together before I went any further. So assembled and bolted together all of the table parts inside my shop. Unfortunately I don’t have legs, so its sitting on some saw horses. Since I basically had to remake one entire end of the table I wanted to make sure everything fit together and I cut the compound angles correctly. I tried to save as much of the old table as possible and I may live to regret that. I wasn’t able to get the older joints to fit together as tight as I would have liked. I am debating if I should also add a screws into the joints for good merit. I know, screws are a no-no in furniture restoration, but screws have to be better than 10 penny nails that last guy who worked on the table used. This was my first project where I used Hot Hide Clue. I was very impressed with it. I first made up a small batch and used it to glue up some scraps, just so I could see how it was to work with.

Now to find or make new legs!

 

[Lawnboy77]

Man! That’s looking good! Once stained and finished that new construction is going match the old perfectly.