Imperfect production shafts

Dave38

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
Is it just me or are there alot of warped shafts on the big name production cues?
I have had atleast 12 shafts for cleaning etc. that the average age was 1 to 1.5 yr old, and are warped or a big bow in the middle. Nobody has complained about it, but you can see it as soon as you spin it on the lathe.
How do you other cue repairmen handle such a shaft if, say, they want the dia. size brought down? do you turn down the job, or build a fixture to hold it straight while turning it. I just did a viking, and I used a bearing in the center rest with a custom made delrin collet that held it right where the taper increased dramaticly, and it held it to only 5thou. runout. It was the best I could do. The shaft was also out of round, another mystery to me as to how that can happen so noticibly. Any insights?
Dave
 
Dave38 said:
Is it just me or are there alot of warped shafts on the big name production cues?
I have had atleast 12 shafts for cleaning etc. that the average age was 1 to 1.5 yr old, and are warped or a big bow in the middle. Nobody has complained about it, but you can see it as soon as you spin it on the lathe.
How do you other cue repairmen handle such a shaft if, say, they want the dia. size brought down? do you turn down the job, or build a fixture to hold it straight while turning it. I just did a viking, and I used a bearing in the center rest with a custom made delrin collet that held it right where the taper increased dramaticly, and it held it to only 5thou. runout. It was the best I could do. The shaft was also out of round, another mystery to me as to how that can happen so noticibly. Any insights?
Dave
Click to expand...


Only a guess...............wood that is pushed through too fast with too much meat whacked at a time....


<~~~this is only a guess..............
 
Dave,
What are you using to hold the shaft on the big end?
You could have a slight mis-alignment at the chuck that's giving you the impression that these shafts are warped because, and I'm assuming, you've taken it back to center by having the tip in a concave center. Take a few that you suspect of being warped and roll them on the table (or a flat surface that you have). If they're truly bent, you can bend them straight to do your work. Chances are some if not all will eventually go back to the way they were but 'the way they were' is what the client brought you in the first place and he's already used to bent.

FWIW, all shafts are out of round to a degree. It's the nature of the wood, one side being harder than the other. Very common.

I can see where your center-rest would be a pain. Whenever I do a T/D, I do the whole shaft at one time, just back to the finish.
 
I do alot of tip and repair work on production cues and for the most part warped shafts are the rule not the exception. Now by warped I mean some runout in the center of the shaft. Most will roll fine on a table but, if you get your eye at table level you will see them bouncing in the center. Generally they are not enough to affect playability. Some are like a pretezel. If I take in a shaft for retapering I first roll in in front of the customer and point out the wobble if any. Alot of people I have dealt with do not even know the shafts have a wobble but, after the work is done they look them over and if they see anything at all they assume you did it if you do not point out any issues before touching it. Chris.
 
I re-face first, if that doesn't do the trick, I turn the job down.
I also think a lot of the problem is on the customers side of things also, No matter how you try some people cannot be educated until they spend enough money as punishment. Just cold hard facts with some people.
 
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Chris Byrne said:
I do alot of tip and repair work on production cues and for the most part warped shafts are the rule not the exception. Now by warped I mean some runout in the center of the shaft. Most will roll fine on a table but, if you get your eye at table level you will see them bouncing in the center. Generally they are not enough to affect playability. Some are like a pretezel. If I take in a shaft for retapering I first roll in in front of the customer and point out the wobble if any. Alot of people I have dealt with do not even know the shafts have a wobble but, after the work is done they look them over and if they see anything at all they assume you did it if you do not point out any issues before touching it. Chris.
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What you describe Chris is exactly what I'm talking about. The middle has drop out usually to the point of the center hitting the table as you roll it, but only on one side. Originally, I took this one in for a cracked shaft, then a week after I had it, while waiting for him to find his receipt for warrentee, which he couldn't, therefore he gave the go ahead, then he decided to drop a mm, so he can sell it to a buddy that wants a 12.3mm. At the time I took the stick, I was only going to try and fix the crack, so I didn't roll it first. lesson learned.
KC, I had the joint attached to a drive pin, chucked up in the lathe chuck. When putting them on my lathe for cleaning, I use a drive pin in a chuck, or I use a MT#2 arbor with joint pin on the shaft end. I made these myself from quality MT2 blanks, and haven't had an alignment problem. The tailstock end is in a concave center, so all spins well. In this case, the wobble is so bad, that if I tried to run it on the lathe with a router to downsize it, I really think I would end up with a toothpick in the middle. That's why I used a collet and the steady rest for the cue to spin straight at least where I was working the size down. I'll post some pics tomorrow, if I'm not out cutting down a maple in the yard..
Thanks everyone
Dave
 
What people are describing is the result of get it out the door for a price.
I had a customer that had an import cue and wanted a new tip on it. I said it well be $15. He said I can buy a new cue for $30.
My reply was, Well , that is what you will have to do then . He said what do you mean?
If $15 is too much for a tip, and you can get a new cue for $30, just do it and save me my time for other things.
At some point, you just have to let them go.
Basically you get what you pay for.
To some people the $30 cue is all they need. They drop them, beat up the cue so bad, there is no respect for equipment. Dare not let them loose on a real cue. It will be beat up like theirs.
I suspect that when you buy a cheap front shaft, pay some one to make it right (assuming the wood is any good) you will be close to the price of getting someone to make it for you in the 1st place.
Now I can understand that as time goes buy and you have a cue that you like but have decided that you now want to make it a smaller shaft size, that is fine. But I do not like it when people comare craftmanship to something that has just been made quick as possible to ship out the door.
By the shape of some of the cheaper shafts, I am thinking that they are centreless ground/ sanded.
Neil


PS my son just broke the US record for F2A speed. He did 173 MPH. off topic but was happy for him.
 
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conetip said:
PS my son just broke the US record for F2A speed. He did 173 MPH. off topic but was happy for him.
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Congrates to your son and to you:thumbup: BTW, not to sound dumb,whats F2A?
 
I own 4 production 2-piece cues (McD, Falcon, Dufferin, Schmelke (but very new) ) and all shafts are straight (in my eyes, anyway). Just a data point. Note too that I live in a semi-arid land.

Dave
 
plus how many players leave there 400$ cue in the car at all times. You dont find the guy with the $4k tasc leaving it in the trunk
 
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F2a

Dave38 said:
Congrates to your son and to you:thumbup: BTW, not to sound dumb,whats F2A?
Click to expand...
Thanks, F2A is an international class of speed model planes. They have 2.5 cc engines and are controlline models. The steel lines are 58 feet from the handle to the cl of the handle. The fuel is supplied by the contest director and is methanol with %20 castor oil as a lubricant.It is a difficult class to fly, because they are very fast and the engines are very weather dependent.
But when it all works it is very pleasing.
The avatar is my son holding the model that he used to make the US team. We go to France on July 23 for the World Championships.
Neil Lickfold
 
dave sutton said:
plus how many players leave there 400$ cue in the car at all times. You dont find the guy with the $4k tasc leaving it in the trunk
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Makes you sick dosen't it. I see it all the time. Most say they don't care, a few say the builder can make a shaft that will never warp so it is ok? Too which I just say "you know that is made of wood right?" Oh well, what can you do.
 
Chris Byrne said:
I do alot of tip and repair work on production cues and for the most part warped shafts are the rule not the exception. Now by warped I mean some runout in the center of the shaft. Most will roll fine on a table but, if you get your eye at table level you will see them bouncing in the center. Generally they are not enough to affect playability. Some are like a pretezel. If I take in a shaft for retapering I first roll in in front of the customer and point out the wobble if any. Alot of people I have dealt with do not even know the shafts have a wobble but, after the work is done they look them over and if they see anything at all they assume you did it if you do not point out any issues before touching it. Chris.
Click to expand...





I have seen more of these over the years then I care to imagine, And the above is right on the money. You do the best you can given the circumstances, and often times that's more time involved then the job even pays out. A better quality cue is actually easier to work on, so should we charge the guy that brings these shafts more $? I don't, but It makes Me think sometimes, when I'm frustrated, trying to center one out correctly, and practically have to pull a rabbit out of a hat on every other shaft, just to change the ferrule or tip.

Rule rather than the exception is right, I would almost go to say they are all warped to some degree, that is if it were'nt for that rare ocasion when one actually runs dead on center without manipulation.
 
conetip said:
What people are describing is the result of get it out the door for a price.
I had a customer that had an import cue and wanted a new tip on it. I said it well be $15. He said I can buy a new cue for $30.
My reply was, Well , that is what you will have to do then . He said what do you mean?
If $15 is too much for a tip, and you can get a new cue for $30, just do it and save me my time for other things.
At some point, you just have to let them go.
Basically you get what you pay for.
To some people the $30 cue is all they need. They drop them, beat up the cue so bad, there is no respect for equipment. Dare not let them loose on a real cue. It will be beat up like theirs.
I suspect that when you buy a cheap front shaft, pay some one to make it right (assuming the wood is any good) you will be close to the price of getting someone to make it for you in the 1st place.
Now I can understand that as time goes buy and you have a cue that you like but have decided that you now want to make it a smaller shaft size, that is fine. But I do not like it when people comare craftmanship to something that has just been made quick as possible to ship out the door.
By the shape of some of the cheaper shafts, I am thinking that they are centreless ground/ sanded.
Neil


PS my son just broke the US record for F2A speed. He did 173 MPH. off topic but was happy for him.
Click to expand...



That pretty much sums It up. If you spend alittle more, buy a fiberglass handle shovel, and leave It outside, It will hold up for reasonable amount of time, but if you buy a cheap shovel, and leave It out, It won't be long before you break the handle off, then the question is to you replace the handle at near or the actual cost as what you paid for the whole shovel or just buy a new one?

Some people compare the repair price that way, but thankfully there are some that understand they are used to that cue regardless of what it cost them, and want to continue to play with what they are used to. I've actually had people tip me more then their cue was worth, so It really depends on the person, but I've seen both types.

One time I had a women that apparently had turned a few up for the night, come up and ask me how much to repair her cues. I don't remember what the repairs were, but they would have been like 3 to 4 times as much to repair as what she could buy them for brand new. I tried to politely explain that to her, and she took offense anyway, as if I thought I was too good to work on her cheap cues.:grin: I kept trying to tell her, no that's not it at all, I'm just trying to save you some money, but man she got Poed at Me:sorry:.

One thing that taught me, is You can't please everyone, and you can't guess what a cue means to someone, regardless of what it would be worth to you, so the best thing is to just quote Your price, and if they give the ol I can buy a new cue for that excuse, then tell them to have at It. You just can't do the job for less.

I charge between 15 and 17 for common tips too, and even at that I have had times where I screwed around with a warped shaft so much that I had to walk away and come back, until I lost money or time (same difference) on the deal. I guess I could have hacked their shaft up, but I don't work that way. If I have to eat It Myself to get It right, then I do, and that happens alot more the I would like. It's just the nature of the beast.

Greg
 
I like the times when people say they need a tip, and when they give it to me, it has a screw-on tip that I just pull on the ferrule slightly and it comes right off. I do it in front of them so they see that it's a bad design and should be replaced. I then tell then I won't touch it unless I can put a regular ferrule and tip on, and then I'll take the heavy finish off their Ramin wood shaft and refinish it. total cost $20. They usually walk away, go back to Walmart and get another. Then these same people play league and can't understand why they miss so many shots, and end up losing more than winning. I've actually seen people at Walmart rolling the sticks on the floor to find the 'straight' one, not realizing that the floor is way off as much as the cues themselves. These people take the game very seriously, but refuse to spend the right amount to get a decent cue that can help their game rise to the next level. I just don't get it.
Dave
 
i just bite my tongue. if they want a tip, i do a tip. is they want a clean i do a clean. after all they are gonna do what they want anyways. i amazes me the things i hear ppl say. all i do is shake my head.
 
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