Info on a cue and pic's

[Rod]

It's an old Palmer to my knowledge. I owned another one almost identical. Dick Abbott at billiardcue.com originally didn't think it was a Palmer but as he said he hasn't seen them all. He wanted to know if it was a full splice. He thought it could be a Burton Spain half splice if it wasn't a full splice. I could cut off the wrap but I'd like some comments first. In the end I'll have it refinished whether I sell or not.

Notice the weight screw. It is 1/2" by 13 thread aluminum. Not shown, the threaded end is drilled and tapped for a 1/4 screw. That is for adding a steel screw for weight as needed. I make another screw just like it which is longer (not shown).

Also three shafts by Palmer, one has aluminum around the brass threaded insert. I believe it was the original. The other two were made by Prather. I bought it in late 69 or 70. I was told it was a little over a year old at the time.

I appreciate any comments.

Rod

 

[Rod]

Here is two more pics

A pic of the joint which is 5/16 x 16 I think, not a 14 thread obviously, and the shafts and butt.

 

[larrynj1]

that's a strange splice with the rosewood between the points. i never saw anything like that. the piloted part of the joint on the shaft seems like its' longer than what you see on a palmer joint. this could be the pictures? palmers are usually 5/16 - 18 btw.

 

[Rod]

that's a strange splice with the rosewood between the points. i never saw anything like that. the piloted part of the joint on the shaft seems like its' longer than what you see on a palmer joint. this could be the pictures? palmers are usually 5/16 - 18 btw.

My other Palmer had rosewood as well with the same inlay as I recall. A lot of years have passed. The piloted part is 3/16" so I think it's the photo. Oh yes it is 18 thread. Thanks

Rod

 

[Fred Agnir]

It's an old Palmer to my knowledge. I owned another one almost identical. Dick Abbott at billiardcue.com originally didn't think it was a Palmer but as he said he hasn't seen them all. He wanted to know if it was a full splice. He thought it could be a Burton Spain half splice if it wasn't a full splice. I could cut off the wrap but I'd like some comments first. In the end I'll have it refinished whether I sell or not.

I am by no means an expert, but it looks like a Burton Spain blank to me. I can't tell what going on at the maple point. Some kind of black. Is that wood or is it filler?

Anyway, being rosewood, I'd guess it's a Burton Spain full-splice. But, as Dick says, it also could be a half-splice, but the date (69-70) sounds a little early for when I recall he started doing that style of half-splice. I'll check the book tonight.

Fred

 

[classiccues]

I am by no means an expert, but it looks like a Burton Spain blank to me. I can't tell what going on at the maple point. Some kind of black. Is that wood or is it filler?

Anyway, being rosewood, I'd guess it's a Burton Spain full-splice. But, as Dick says, it also could be a half-splice, but the date (69-70) sounds a little early for when I recall he started doing that style of half-splice. I'll check the book tonight.

Fred

Fred,
I am very positive its a 5 veneer Spain blank. Very rare. As for who finished the cue, thats a little up in the air. I would have guessed Paradise, on many levels. But the original shafts having the black over the pilot, and the aluminum collar on the other are not Franks doing. This leads to a few issues, were the shafts "repaired" by a Nubs Wagner, or Steve Miller who do the phenolic over wood, maybe they are original and you have to look at who Burton sold blanks to.

Palmer, Paradise, Petersen, Viking etc.. If the shafts are original I would almost guess Viking because they have a history of multiple and varying joint designs. The weight bolt is also extremely odd, again who is to say its original or not?

We have a very similar situation right now with a cue that could be a $ 2,000 dollar cue, a $ 8,000 dollar cue or a $ 20,000.00 dollar cue. An x-ray wil tell us all we need to know... It is what makes collecting and dealing such fun, its like being Indiana Jones

Hey maybe you can get IP to do a special cuemakers corner on Unsolved Cue Mysteries and Collecting..

BTW I have seen many of BS blanks where the black "runs" together.

Joe

 

[Rod]

I am by no means an expert, but it looks like a Burton Spain blank to me. I can't tell what going on at the maple point. Some kind of black. Is that wood or is it filler?

Anyway, being rosewood, I'd guess it's a Burton Spain full-splice. But, as Dick says, it also could be a half-splice, but the date (69-70) sounds a little early for when I recall he started doing that style of half-splice. I'll check the book tonight.

Fred

Your opinion is appreciated Fred, and thanks. The black is a veneer, as Joe said they run together. Up close I can see the separation. The wrap will have to be removed for a finish, so at that time I’ll know if it’s a full or half splice. I could be wrong on the date by a year or so. I bought it before going on the road, hell I’d have to go back and see the years I didn’t pay taxes. LOL I think it could have been as late as 1971. I’ve played and beat a lot of good to great players with that cue. It holds a lot of stories.

Rod

 

[Rod]

Fred,
I am very positive its a 5 veneer Spain blank. Very rare. As for who finished the cue, thats a little up in the air. I would have guessed Paradise, on many levels. But the original shafts having the black over the pilot, and the aluminum collar on the other are not Franks doing. This leads to a few issues, were the shafts "repaired" by a Nubs Wagner, or Steve Miller who do the phenolic over wood, maybe they are original and you have to look at who Burton sold blanks to.

Palmer, Paradise, Petersen, Viking etc.. If the shafts are original I would almost guess Viking because they have a history of multiple and varying joint designs. The weight bolt is also extremely odd, again who is to say its original or not?

We have a very similar situation right now with a cue that could be a $ 2,000 dollar cue, a $ 8,000 dollar cue or a $ 20,000.00 dollar cue. An x-ray wil tell us all we need to know... It is what makes collecting and dealing such fun, its like being Indiana Jones

Hey maybe you can get IP to do a special cuemakers corner on Unsolved Cue Mysteries and Collecting..

BTW I have seen many of BS blanks where the black "runs" together.

Joe

Joe thanks for your reply. I’m still trying to remember little details. At this time I’m fairly positive the shaft with aluminum was the original shaft. I thought I bought two more shafts direct from Palmer in New Jersey. I could be wrong, still thinking on that one. I remember the pool room owner (who sold me the cue) mentioned M&F or maybe M&S out of St Louis. I’m thinking it had to do with getting new shafts. I think him and a local may have sent some work back there. Just mentioning it as a possible clue and even they could have made the two other shafts. MY memory is terrible.

The weight screw was never touched since I bought the cue until recent years. I made a longer screw on my lathe. I only did so because the butt is drilled quite deep. The cue hits solid but I thought a longer screw might make it even better. Problem is I haven’t played with it as yet.

A local fellow refinished the cue years ago with lacquer so the finish has a cloth texture to the clear coat. That’s from being in the case for so long. It will buff out easy but I’m not going to fool with it. I really think I was told it was a Palmer but we know how that goes. I owned another Palmer that I’m almost positive was near the same with the rosewood. It was one with the threaded on ferrule.

Would an ex ray in this case identify the cue? Just curious, any more questions or if I missed something just ask. Why is a 5 veneer blank so rare?

Rod

 

[Rod]

I forgot to mention

The SS joint collar, near the base, has approximately a 1/8" hole drilled horizontally through it and the joint screw. I mean I think it must be because I see a very faint outline of a pin on both sides. I forgot all about this. Did Palmer ever do that? I ask because I’ve seen a couple of old plastic window palmers that the collar came loose.

I sent an email off long ago to Joel Hercek sp? I know he studied under and bought Burton’s equipment. I guess he was to busy to reply, or just didn’t want to. I asked first if I could send photos. I thought he might want to see them. I remember now I bought it from Diamond Cue in Phoenix. The doors were closed long ago.

Rod

 

[merylane]

its a paradise, maybee joel didnt get your email cause hes a super guy,that just dont sound like him.

 

[Fred Agnir]

its a paradise, .

That's what I thought it was, FWIW.

Fred

 

[classiccues]

Joe thanks for your reply. I’m still trying to remember little details. At this time I’m fairly positive the shaft with aluminum was the original shaft. I thought I bought two more shafts direct from Palmer in New Jersey. I could be wrong, still thinking on that one. I remember the pool room owner (who sold me the cue) mentioned M&F or maybe M&S out of St Louis. I’m thinking it had to do with getting new shafts. I think him and a local may have sent some work back there. Just mentioning it as a possible clue and even they could have made the two other shafts. MY memory is terrible.

The weight screw was never touched since I bought the cue until recent years. I made a longer screw on my lathe. I only did so because the butt is drilled quite deep. The cue hits solid but I thought a longer screw might make it even better. Problem is I haven’t played with it as yet.

A local fellow refinished the cue years ago with lacquer so the finish has a cloth texture to the clear coat. That’s from being in the case for so long. It will buff out easy but I’m not going to fool with it. I really think I was told it was a Palmer but we know how that goes. I owned another Palmer that I’m almost positive was near the same with the rosewood. It was one with the threaded on ferrule.

Would an ex ray in this case identify the cue? Just curious, any more questions or if I missed something just ask. Why is a 5 veneer blank so rare?

Rod

Rod,
The metal collared shaft is reminiscent of old Meyer and Fedunka work. I just sold a window Fedunka with the metal collar very close to yours, about 4 months ago. I also know that both worked for Palmer and its not out of the realm of possibilities that they could have obtain a Spain blank.
Now also, Mike Fundunka M.F cues, when he teamed with Karl, it was M and F cues. Maybe this is them and not sent to St. Louis but back to Jersey. Its very possible that you have a cue made by Fedunka (solo) or his brief stint with Karl. That would explain the pin in the collar. Paradise did this also, but I have only seen this pin in early Paradise cues with a brass joint. Never have I seen it on a steel collared Paradise.

Joe

 

[Rod]

its a paradise, maybee joel didnt get your email cause hes a super guy,that just dont sound like him.

Thanks, yes that can happen. I could send another, I just didn't want to bother him. You guys say a Paradise, I haven't seen one like it. Any similar photos I could look at?

Rod

 

[Rod]

Rod,
The metal collared shaft is reminiscent of old Meyer and Fedunka work. I just sold a window Fedunka with the metal collar very close to yours, about 4 months ago. I also know that both worked for Palmer and its not out of the realm of possibilities that they could have obtain a Spain blank.
Now also, Mike Fundunka M.F cues, when he teamed with Karl, it was M and F cues. Maybe this is them and not sent to St. Louis but back to Jersey. Its very possible that you have a cue made by Fedunka (solo) or his brief stint with Karl. That would explain the pin in the collar. Paradise did this also, but I have only seen this pin in early Paradise cues with a brass joint. Never have I seen it on a steel collared Paradise.

Joe

Joe,

Well I'm not crazy after all. I remember the name M&F. I asked others but they never heard of M&F. I'm probably just confused on the location. Was this the 69 -71 era? Maybe it did come from them or did they ever build cues for Palmer? I never heard of them but that's nothing new. I'll take it there not around or alive any more? I wonder about the Weight bolt. Do you know if the 1/2" size is common to them, palmer, or paradise? Sorry for all the questions but it finally looks like I'm making some progress.

Rod

 

[classiccues]

Joe,

Well I'm not crazy after all. I remember the name M&F. I asked others but they never heard of M&F. I'm probably just confused on the location. Was this the 69 -71 era? Maybe it did come from them or did they ever build cues for Palmer? I never heard of them but that's nothing new. I'll take it there not around or alive any more? I wonder about the Weight bolt. Do you know if the 1/2" size is common to them, palmer, or paradise? Sorry for all the questions but it finally looks like I'm making some progress.

Rod

Rod,
I think you are a step closer to your answer.

http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/634_butt_2_hi.jpg

This is a picture of the MF cue we had. Look at the size of the weight bolt in the butt cap. You can clearly see that its much larger than that of a typical Palmer or Paradise. See below.

http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/640_butt_2_hi.jpg
http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/606_butt_hi.jpg

Maybe thats what you have. A Fedunka with a Spain blank.

Joe

 

[Rod]

Rod,
I think you are a step closer to your answer.

http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/634_butt_2_hi.jpg

This is a picture of the MF cue we had. Look at the size of the weight bolt in the butt cap. You can clearly see that its much larger than that of a typical Palmer or Paradise. See below.

http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/640_butt_2_hi.jpg
http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/606_butt_hi.jpg

Maybe thats what you have. A Fedunka with a Spain blank.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Well it sure looks larger. I remember the head of this screw is .710 in daimeter. Also the screw to hold on the rubber bumper is 1/4" diameter. Probably no one ever took out that screw or remembers the bumper screw size.

Do you know if Palmer and Paradise uses a 3/8" weight bolt? Did this fellow Fedunka make many cues? I guess it doesn't matter that much he obviously made quite a few even if it was working for Palmer.

Maybe I'll get lucky with a pic of the actual screw from another MF. I have a feeling he may have been trying to hold down weight. Then make it fairly easy to add weight as needed with this special screw. Who knows but if you or anyone has any further info I'm all ears. Thanks for taking the time Joe.

Rod

 

[Rod]

I am by no means an expert, but it looks like a Burton Spain blank to me. I can't tell what going on at the maple point. Some kind of black. Is that wood or is it filler?

Anyway, being rosewood, I'd guess it's a Burton Spain full-splice. But, as Dick says, it also could be a half-splice, but the date (69-70) sounds a little early for when I recall he started doing that style of half-splice. I'll check the book tonight.

Fred

Fred what did the book say about Burton doing full & half splice? Years that is.

Thanks, Rod

 

[Fred Agnir]

Fred what did the book say about Burton doing full & half splice? Years that is.

Thanks, Rod

Sorry for getting back so late.

From all I can tell from his writing, Burton started doing the half-splice on ebony-pronged blanks in 1974. He was doing short-length, full-splice (18") blanks previously, but since most cuemakers were lopping off 5" from that blank (except Balabushka), he wanted to figure a method that would end up with a 13" blank. I like to use "half-splice" because that's what Burton called it. A "short-splice" I don't know if that term means anything. Burton made shorty blanks, which were short full-spliced blanks. (Sorry for the redundancy).

There is an implication that he continued until some time later doing full-length, full-splice rosewood blanks as the reason for going to a half-splice didn't involve his rosewood blanks.

But, as always, I'll defer to anyone else that has more information.

Fred

 

[qmakr]

The SS joint collar, near the base, has approximately a 1/8" hole drilled horizontally through it and the joint screw. I mean I think it must be because I see a very faint outline of a pin on both sides. I forgot all about this. Did Palmer ever do that? I ask because I’ve seen a couple of old plastic window palmers that the collar came loose.

I sent an email off long ago to Joel Hercek sp? I know he studied under and bought Burton’s equipment. I guess he was to busy to reply, or just didn’t want to. I asked first if I could send photos. I thought he might want to see them. I remember now I bought it from Diamond Cue in Phoenix. The doors were closed long ago.

Rod

Rod:


I try to answer every e-mail I get however some do slip by. Yours either never went through or I simply missed it. "Sorry"
You do not need to remove the wrap on that cue to see if it's a full splice, it is... Now it is possible that the cue was cut and then reattached under the wrap, however I'd be surprised if that were the case given way the veneers come together above the wrap. It's hard to tell from a photo if that is one of Burt's blanks or not, but from what can see I'd say it's a strong possibility that it is one of Burton Spain's full splice 5 veneer blanks. If you would like to talk further on the cue, you can call me anytime, or e-mail. If I get it I will respond.

Regards

Joel Hercek
www.hercek.com

 

[JoeyInCali]

I think I just heard Orson Welles speak.