Inlaying another makers cue upon customers request.

[cubswin]

How about shafts? What if I have another maker make a shaft for a cue, ring work matches, and looks like an original shaft. Should cuemakers do this?

Know for me personally I just tell people who made the shaft when I sell the cue. I had a sugartree that I had masonh make a shaft for. Looked original, and I let people know it was from mason. Currently have a sneaky that I had a shaft made for recently. Shaft looks original, and other than ferrule length I have a hard time telling it apart.

I've never considered getting a additional shaft as modification, but if I'm passing it off as original (like adding inlays) that would be just as wrong in my opinion. Maybe even worse.

With all that said, for goodness sake don't any of you decide not to make spare shafts.

 

[Michael Webb]

Matt,
You're such a drama queen I started a general thread about things I have noticed in the for sale section and someone else outted that cue.

The funny thing about that BB by Phillippi is that no one wants to touch it and the value has been bought way down. The flip side is that Harry Richards cue that Dennis Searing inlayed, or helped, or whatever, that everyone trips over when it comes up for sale. There is a famous cue called the Balaboti, I don't think I need to spell out the two cuemakers involved. There has always been debate onto it's true value. But I would say the value is and should be very high. (plus this cue was practically destroyed when it was put back together so the story goes)

In general, this is a bad practice. A refinish, rewrap, etc.. one thing. But trying to add value through inlays I'd hope more people would turn down the request.

JV

Good Morning Joe
Thank you, For sure there are lots of closets and endless stories, Some people know and some people don't. Some feel justified depending on certain circumstances where others are frowned upon. In the for sale section section it all eventually comes out. Cues that were promised and guaranteed that would never come for sale, end up for sale. Neither myself, you, or anyone else can stop it completely but if Cue makers actually stop and think about it more as a regular rule of thumb. Then that thought, may reduce it from happening.

 

[Michael Webb]

How about shafts? What if I have another maker make a shaft for a cue, ring work matches, and looks like an original shaft. Should cuemakers do this?

Know for me personally I just tell people who made the shaft when I sell the cue. I had a sugartree that I had masonh make a shaft for. Looked original, and I let people know it was from mason. Currently have a sneaky that I had a shaft made for recently. Shaft looks original, and other than ferrule length I have a hard time telling it apart.

I've never considered getting a additional shaft as modification, but if I'm passing it off as original (like adding inlays) that would be just as wrong in my opinion. Maybe even worse.

With all that said, for goodness sake don't any of you decide not to make spare shafts.

Morning Cubs:
Shafts are not modifications, After market shafts are a standard. Telling people is the correct answer as you always show maturity and class in everything you do.

 

[Michael Webb]

Unfortunately some names are starting to come up, If it is at all possible, can everyone try to refrain from challenging someone to show their nuts so to speak.

 

[classiccues]

disclosure is the key

Morning Cubs:
Shafts are not modifications, After market shafts are a standard. Telling people is the correct answer as you always show maturity and class in everything you do.

A few years ago I bought a few SW's I was told were all original. I ended up seeing two of them on a popular refinishing site, I called and verified that he did the refinishing and I promptly called the two new owners and offered to take them back. They appreciated the calls but were very happy with the cues so they declined.

Getting people to be upfront about it is very tough. Maybe they got taken and are off loading. They figure they got screwed so screw the next guy. I would have no problem seeing the makers initials on the joint face of a replacement shaft.

JV

 

[Michael Webb]

A few years ago I bought a few SW's I was told were all original. I ended up seeing two of them on a popular refinishing site, I called and verified that he did the refinishing and I promptly called the two new owners and offered to take them back. They appreciated the calls but were very happy with the cues so they declined.

Getting people to be upfront about it is very tough. Maybe they got taken and are off loading. They figure they got screwed so screw the next guy. I would have no problem seeing the makers initials on the joint face of a replacement shaft.

JV

You are absolutely correct but a re-face would also eliminate that. In my years of up bringing in this Industry, I always looked to individuals more knowledged than I was. And BTW you and Mark were two of them. You may not of always thought I heard what you were saying but I was. So Thank you. Perfect world doesn't exist but like our children, we can't always choose the correct roads they travel, but we can train them to have the rational reasoning to make the right choice. Man, I'll be glad when these shafts are done cutting, I need to go back to being a hermit again. I'm not a deep person. But I always fall back on being a Dad. I think my kids keep pop corn on hand in the car.

 

[LosOsosCues]

The Titlist cues are different from any other production cue, and have the one characteristic none since have, the ability to be converted by any maker and still be recognized. You can change it any way you wish, and it does not matter who converted it or how, it is still easily identifiable as Titlist conversion and no one can be fooled. That is the salient point about them, no matter what you do to them, they remain first and foremost, Titlists.

Those are all very stong and good points. I think what your forgetting is that not all pool players know what the heck a titlist is? I had never heard of one untill I became a member here. I could have bought one when I first started playing and had no clue that it was not made by the guy who had signed it? Would I be wrong to get upset thinking I got a custom cue that I thought was hand made by the guy whos name was on it and it just turnned out be a production cue? Its easy when you know a lot about cues to not be fooled but your assuming all buyers know as much as you and thats not the case. This is a great thread and from now on all fullsplices I convert or modify will have the blank makers name on it somewhere. They deserve credit as well IMO

 

[classiccues]

You are absolutely correct but a re-face would also eliminate that. In my years of up bringing in this Industry, I always looked to individuals more knowledged than I was. And BTW you and Mark were two of them. You may not of always thought I heard what you were saying but I was. So Thank you. Perfect world doesn't exist but like our children, we can't always choose the correct roads they travel, but we can train them to have the rational reasoning to make the right choice. Man, I'll be glad when these shafts are done cutting, I need to go back to being a hermit again. I'm not a deep person. But I always fall back on being a Dad. I think my kids keep pop corn on hand in the car.

Thanks a lot, and Mark and I appreciate your kind words. You could sign it or initial over the trim ring. It's a slippery slope for sure.

JV

 

[cuesmith]

I've been asked to add inlays to other makers cues many, many times. I've always declined. I have engraved the owners names on the butt piece of cues though on many occasions mainly because a lot of cuemakers until recently did not have the capabilities to do engraving around the cue using what is often referred to as 4th axis engraving. I don't feel this is a problem.

 

[cuesmith]

So quick question.....if a new cue maker like myself whom does not own a cnc yet....makes a cue that is ment to be an inlayed cue......designs the inlays.....and even know how to write the program and have the file stored on a zip drive......approaches another cue maker with a cnc with the request to either cut the inlays or let the new cue maker use his or her machine to cut the inlays........I have not done this but honestly I have 4 cues I am waiting on a cnc to finish and have been tempted to do just this......how do yall feel about that??? This has been a question on my mind lately......I have always prided my self on doing 100% OF all work myself.....I don't use any kind of blank exept for house cues....I don't buy shaft blanks even....cut them outta boards I buy.....soooo.......I'm very torn....I'll probably just wait until I have my own.....but still a good question

I have done this before for a guy who apprenticed with me and did most of the work on the cue, himself in my shop. But I don't look at this as if a customer brought a cue in made by someone else and asked me to add inlays. This is more of a collaboration of my apprentice and myself done during the original making of the cue.

 

[lenoxmjs]

Matt,
You're such a drama queen I started a general thread about things I have noticed in the for sale section and someone else outted that cue.

The funny thing about that BB by Phillippi is that no one wants to touch it and the value has been bought way down. The flip side is that Harry Richards cue that Dennis Searing inlayed, or helped, or whatever, that everyone trips over when it comes up for sale. There is a famous cue called the Balaboti, I don't think I need to spell out the two cuemakers involved. There has always been debate onto it's true value. But I would say the value is and should be very high. (plus this cue was practically destroyed when it was put back together so the story goes)

In general, this is a bad practice. A refinish, rewrap, etc.. one thing. But trying to add value through inlays I'd hope more people would turn down the request.

JV

I thought that the southwest fit the discussion at hand so I used it ....Drama and all :smile:

I completely agree with everything you said above.

 

[Michael Webb]

I've been asked to add inlays to other makers cues many, many times. I've always declined. I have engraved the owners names on the butt piece of cues though on many occasions mainly because a lot of cuemakers until recently did not have the capabilities to do engraving around the cue using what is often referred to as 4th axis engraving. I don't feel this is a problem.

Hi Sherm
As always Welcome. I am with you on this one.

 

[06Busa]

Are you kidding me, Are you guys that do this, that disrespect or just that desperate for work???????
Try and justify this, take your best shot.

I have a nice Thomas Wayne with kind of a plain butt.
Would love to get some simple windows inlayed. Do you think there is a chance I would send it to TW? Heard of a refinish taking years.

Sorry, only had time to read the first post. Reply and then off to work.
I didn't see you only wanted makers thoughts.

 

[cueman]

I have had my own cues come back from someone who picked it up used and had me add some inlays to it. The same guy who had a few of my cues and also had one from another cuemaker that was pretty plain and he wanted his daughter to have it. She loved turquoise and he wanted me to add some turquoise inlays. I put some inlays in the butt sleeve. But now that cue has two signatures on it. It has the original makers logo and in one of the butt sleeve inlays it has our little H logo. I did not feel I was disrespecting anyone. I felt I was helping a customer put a smile on his daughters face. I also did not want anyone to get the impression the other cuemaker did the inlay work so we put our logo in the inlay work. I would hate to think I helped anyone do something dishonest for example: by adding a few inlays to a high end cuemakers plainer cue and them saying they had a high end custom cue all original form that maker. That is why we signed the inlay work.
I think you are being a little too possessive about something that you sold to someone else. If I built a Ivory handled cue and someone took it and had scrimshaw work and a refinish put on it, that would not bother me if the scrimshaw artist signed the art work. If you want to add inlays to my cues, all I ask is that you sign the inlay work.
If you buy a custom Chopper from some high end chopper place. I bet they won't get all twisted out of shape it you have some more custom features added. I just don't want to be given credit for someone elses inlay work that was added to one of my cues later. I also don't want them to be given credit for what I added either, if I decide to do so.

 

[Michael Webb]

I have a nice Thomas Wayne with kind of a plain butt.
Would love to get some simple windows inlayed. Do you think there is a chance I would send it to TW? Heard of a refinish taking years.

Sorry, only had time to read the first post. Reply and then off to work.
I didn't see you only wanted makers thoughts.

On a subject like this, Cue maker's thoughts are easier for me to try to respond to as politely and hopefully in a professional manner. A couple of dealers also played and I really appreciate that because their role in the industry as a whole is very important. Some members also which I thought was very good, Although on a subject such as this, I fear the overall general public because, lets face it, sometimes people want what they want and it doesn't matter what might be good for the cue or the original Cue maker.


As far as what and how long it might take a certain Cue maker to do something, I would never try to answer for any Cue maker. If I did, I would be totally out of line.

 

[Michael Webb]

I have had my own cues come back from someone who picked it up used and had me add some inlays to it. The same guy who had a few of my cues and also had one from another cuemaker that was pretty plain and he wanted his daughter to have it. She loved turquoise and he wanted me to add some turquoise inlays. I put some inlays in the butt sleeve. But now that cue has two signatures on it. It has the original makers logo and in one of the butt sleeve inlays it has our little H logo. I did not feel I was disrespecting anyone. I felt I was helping a customer put a smile on his daughters face. I also did not want anyone to get the impression the other cuemaker did the inlay work so we put our logo in the inlay work. I would hate to think I helped anyone do something dishonest for example: by adding a few inlays to a high end cuemakers plainer cue and them saying they had a high end custom cue all original form that maker. That is why we signed the inlay work.
I think you are being a little too possessive about something that you sold to someone else. If I built a Ivory handled cue and someone took it and had scrimshaw work and a refinish put on it, that would not bother me if the scrimshaw artist signed the art work. If you want to add inlays to my cues, all I ask is that you sign the inlay work.
If you buy a custom Chopper from some high end chopper place. I bet they won't get all twisted out of shape it you have some more custom features added. I just don't want to be given credit for someone else's inlay work that was added to one of my cues later. I also don't want them to be given credit for what I added either, if I decide to do so.

Hi Chris,
Can we skip the chopper part of the story, it has absolutely nothing to do with what this thread is about.
1- When you added inlays to another makers cue, and especially added your logo to them, Did you think about asking the original maker what his or her thoughts might be on this?
2- For a man in your position as President if the ICA, Don't you think you should set an example for your members and how their cues might play a role in History.
3- A cue is not just a cue, it is a Cue makers thought and constructive efforts as a craftsman to create a tool that someone would be proud to own.

To add inlays is bad enough but to add your signature, I'm at a total loss for words because I can't do it in a professional manner. You got me.

 

[06Busa]

On a subject like this, Cue maker's thoughts are easier for me to try to respond to as politely and hopefully in a professional manner. A couple of dealers also played and I really appreciate that because their role in the industry as a whole is very important. Some members also which I thought was very good, Although on a subject such as this, I fear the overall general public because, lets face it, sometimes people want what they want and it doesn't matter what might be good for the cue or the original Cue maker.


As far as what and how long it might take a certain Cue maker to do something, I would never try to answer for any Cue maker. If I did, I would be totally out of line.

:thumbup: Really like the way you carry yourself on this subject. Enjoyed reading the rest of the thread. Wish I was better spoken.

Like I had mentioned. Would love to have windows added. Not for added value, but for me. The cue I was talking about has been in my possession since new about 20 yrs ago. Have not, nor will I pursue added inlays. The cue was finished. So thats the way it stays.

I was just giving a possible reason why someone would have another cue maker work on a cue. Should I have mentioned a name? Prolly not, Im far from perfect. And still have bought 2 more of his cues knowing what I believe to be true. Still own them all today.

All this means is I agree with you.

 

[Sheldon]

Wrapping a wrap-less would really depend on the cue., Inlays, I'm pretty firm on not doing it. As a golden rule, if I change the handle on a cue. I consider the cue and always call the maker. Handles are done on an individual basis. But there are some that should only be touched by the original maker, I would say it's important to know, who's who. Restoration work is different and again it's based on an individual basis.

You're taking a very easy question and trying to make it into something it's not, and making it into some kind of a moral issue, when in most cases, it's not.
Of course, it's wrong to modify a cue and try to pass it off as original. If someone comes to me and I suspected that they wanted me to do this, I'd show them the door.
But if someone wanted an engraving, or some minor inlay in a plain cue to spice it up for their own enjoyment, I don't see a problem, with the exception of certain cues that it would harm the value of. I would argue strongly against doing it in this case, but a customer might be able to persuade me.
If you really feel this way, why limit yourself to custom cues? By your logic, it should be just as wrong to modify a production cue.
Next time you cut a joint pin into a house cue, you might want to consider the moral dilemma first.

Sorry, couldn't resist the small bit of sarcasm at the end there..... :grin-square:

 

[ratcues]

I don't think the analogies of cues to cars or motorcycles are valid. Cues are considered art. When you look at it in those terms, the answer is clear.

I've made many modifications to cues but will not add inlays. 99% of the mods I perform are reversible. That's how I look at it. For example, I have removed a SS collar and replaced it with ivory. Yes, I changed the original makers work but it is reversible, if necessary.



<~~~I may be a hypocrite...

 

[Michael Webb]

You're taking a very easy question and trying to make it into something it's not, and making it into some kind of a moral issue, when in most cases, it's not.
Of course, it's wrong to modify a cue and try to pass it off as original. If someone comes to me and I suspected that they wanted me to do this, I'd show them the door.
But if someone wanted an engraving, or some minor inlay in a plain cue to spice it up for their own enjoyment, I don't see a problem, with the exception of certain cues that it would harm the value of. I would argue strongly against doing it in this case, but a customer might be able to persuade me.
If you really feel this way, why limit yourself to custom cues? By your logic, it should be just as wrong to modify a production cue.
Next time you cut a joint pin into a house cue, you might want to consider the moral dilemma first.

Sorry, couldn't resist the small bit of sarcasm at the end there..... :grin-square:

Morning Sheldon
Thank you