Instruction

[Curdog]

Just wondering... Has anybody screwed up their game by using what they thought was good instruction and applying it improperly?
My example is follow-through. I remember the first time I read an article on the importance of follow-through. I immediately tried to implement it into my game. The problem was that my follow-through was much too long. My stroke was therefore very inconsistent because I was continually dropping my elbow to facilitate a long follow-through.
I'm still fighting this 5 years later. It seems that when I'm shooting my best, my elbow remains fairly stationary and I'm almost limiting what I used to think was the correct follow-through.
Any other experiences?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Just wondering... Has anybody screwed up their game by using what they thought was good instruction and applying it improperly?
My example is follow-through. ... Any other experiences?

I just recently mentioned one of my own experiences in the "Aiming Systems Are Bogus" thread. Some teach that for an object ball frozen on the rail, you should hit the ball and the rail at the same time. (Maybe there are a few confused people who still believe this. If so, my sympathy.) It took me 15 years and quite a few missed shots to discover the truth. It didn't help that one author promoting that idea was a fairly well known and respected player. I made the mistake of taking on faith what he said.

 

[Handsumm]

I just recently mentioned one of my own experiences in the "Aiming Systems Are Bogus" thread. Some teach that for an object ball frozen on the rail, you should hit the ball and the rail at the same time. (Maybe there are a few confused people who still believe this. If so, my sympathy.) It took me 15 years and quite a few missed shots to discover the truth. It didn't help that one author promoting that idea was a fairly well known and respected player. I made the mistake of taking on faith what he said.

two ?'s Who is the author, and what is the correct way?

 

[Pushout]

two ?'s Who is the author, and what is the correct way?

Correct, IIRC, is about a credit card's thickness in front of the ball. Maybe a bit less. As to the author, uhhhhhh........I'll let Bob answer that one, if he so desires. Think I know

 

[PKM]

deleted

oops, wrong thread

 

[Bob Jewett]

two ?'s Who is the author, and what is the correct way?

Actually, I'm not sure who the real author was, but it was Willie Mosconi's name on the cover.

As for the correct way, in my first column for Billiards Digest, I proposed an experiment for the readers to do to find out for themselves the best way to pocket a frozen ball. Rather than trust some pontificating author, I think it's better to let those results speak for themselves. See the first several articles at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

Also, Jack Koehler covers frozen object balls very extensively in his "Science of Pocket Billiards" book which any serious student of the game needs in his library. I see that used copies are going up in price ($20 to $30), and I don't think any have been printed for a while.

 

[Big C]

Just wondering... Has anybody screwed up their game by using what they thought was good instruction and applying it improperly?
My example is follow-through. I remember the first time I read an article on the importance of follow-through. I immediately tried to implement it into my game. The problem was that my follow-through was much too long. My stroke was therefore very inconsistent because I was continually dropping my elbow to facilitate a long follow-through.
I'm still fighting this 5 years later. It seems that when I'm shooting my best, my elbow remains fairly stationary and I'm almost limiting what I used to think was the correct follow-through.
Any other experiences?

Your elbow should not be moving up, or down. Follow through is often a misconception because one thinks that the more they follow through, the better the stroke. This is called the "continuous cue" as you are trying to keep your cue and grip hand moving in a straight line as long as possible. Truth is that everyone is built differently and therefore we all have different lengths of follow through. By the time your tip extends 1/16" past the contact point, the cue ball is long gone anyway. Try keeping your grip hand directly under your elbow at setup and keep your elbow pinned while stroking making a deliberate pause on the backstroke, just before the foward stroke. Freeze and check your tip and grip hand position. The tip should be level with the table, or pointing slightly down and your knuckles on your grip hand should be relaxed and poiting up towards your face. If you are having trouble with this I recommend seeking out your nearest BCA instructor.

 

[arsenius]

The standard "follow through" advice irks me to no end. I was told that I wasn't following through enough, and that I had a very short stroke, by an instructor about two years ago. But he didn't tell me WHY I wasn't following through. He didn't tell me that I had a completely non-classic stance and shot underarm. It wasn't until recently that someone explained what I was doing wrong. So much wasted time...

Since learning what I should actually be doing, I have looked at some old video tapes on the stance, and I have not found a single tape that I feel adequately covers this topic. Take for example Jerry Brieseth's tape. He tells you that a quality of a good stroke is that it drops at the end. Well, that may be, but why is that true? It's true because your arm makes a pendulum. It is not true because you lift up the butt of your cue at the end of your stroke. But how can you know which if you just started?

Or another one. The stance is just a base. It doesn't matter how you stand as long as you are balanced. BS BS BS BS BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you put your feet in the wrong position, your hips will be wrong, which will make your shoulders wrong, which will put your (all important) elbow in the wrong place.

Don't get me started on The Monk...

There's a lot of bad advice out there.

 

[Gerry]

the problem with learning this game is there are as many ways to play it right as there are instructors. Sure doing certain mechanical things will help you learn faster so all you teachers get off my back!

The problem is finding an instructor you are comfortable with. I tried a few but they all tried to break down my stroke when I had an alignment problem from day one. Not one of them could explain to me WHY they were messing with my stroke.....just thats how they teach

There are good and bad points to learning alone or with a teacher. I'm glad I taught myself because I know my game and how to fix it. I also know I can do whatever I want with the cueball....something some styles of stroke can't do.

For the record, I am like Jekyll & Hyde with different games. Playing 14.1 my stroke looks more like Jim Rempe or Mike Sigel because I like how they play so I copy them. Playing 9ball I look more like Earl or Efren because they are the best so again I copy what they do. Efren again at 1 pocket!

What all this does it let me play differently per the game or how I feel that day, and it teaches me many new shots.

Gerry

 

[MrLucky]

Just did this

Your elbow should not be moving up, or down. Follow through is often a misconception because one thinks that the more they follow through, the better the stroke. This is called the "continuous cue" as you are trying to keep your cue and grip hand moving in a straight line as long as possible. Truth is that everyone is built differently and therefore we all have different lengths of follow through. By the time your tip extends 1/16" past the contact point, the cue ball is long gone anyway. Try keeping your grip hand directly under your elbow at setup and keep your elbow pinned while stroking making a deliberate pause on the backstroke, just before the foward stroke. Freeze and check your tip and grip hand position. The tip should be level with the table, or pointing slightly down and your knuckles on your grip hand should be relaxed and poiting up towards your face. If you are having trouble with this I recommend seeking out your nearest BCA instructor.

Exactly what Scott Lee worked with me on and it is admittedly hard to break old habits but I already see the difference a slight adjustment he suggested has made in my control and accuracy! You sound like you have worked with him or Randy G yourself

 

[PKM]

I've seen books that say you should have some elbow drop at the end of your stroke. A lot of pros do drop their elbow, so you could see where it comes from.

Also, some books treat the closed bridge as more advanced and what players should strive for after they move past the beginner stage. I took this advice and tried to use the closed bridge for all shots until I realized (and getting other opinions) that it wasn't always best.

 

[MrLucky]

Just a question but..

I've seen books that say you should have some elbow drop at the end of your stroke. A lot of pros do drop their elbow, so you could see where it comes from.

Also, some books treat the closed bridge as more advanced and what players should strive for after they move past the beginner stage. I took this advice and tried to use the closed bridge for all shots until I realized (and getting other opinions) that it wasn't always best.

would not "elbow drop " be similar to rising up on your shot at the end? it would cause you to not have a even stroke perhaps throwing off accuracy just a bit?

 

[Big C]

Don't compare yourself to "the pro's".

I've seen books that say you should have some elbow drop at the end of your stroke. A lot of pros do drop their elbow, so you could see where it comes from.

Also, some books treat the closed bridge as more advanced and what players should strive for after they move past the beginner stage. I took this advice and tried to use the closed bridge for all shots until I realized (and getting other opinions) that it wasn't always best.

They are inherently talented and we all have a signature to our stroke. I'm not sure what level you play, but you just need to concentrate on making your fundamentals sound and don't get caught up in trying to memic another player. As for the bridge, I'll give you a little advice I learned from RandyG. Most of the shots in pool should be executed with an open bridge. The reason being is that it is more accurate. Less resistance and better line of sight. The only time you should be using a closed bridge is for control on draw shots. If you are not used to using an open bridge, then it's going to feel strange. Just give it some time and work on shooting balls into pockets and also easy shots to help work on your eye pattern. Try pausing at the end of your backstroke and again after you shoot. This will help you learn where your stroke is breaking down. If you have the time and resources, I highly recommend attending Cue-Tech pool school. Randy G and his teaching methods are top notch.

 

[DoomCue]

I've seen books that say you should have some elbow drop at the end of your stroke. A lot of pros do drop their elbow, so you could see where it comes from.

This statement is exactly the same kind of advice which started this thread. Follow through is the result of the stroke - just because somebody with a good stroke has a long follow through does not mean the follow through created the good stroke. Follow through is the RESULT of the stroke, not the REASON for a good stroke. The same applies to elbow drop. BCA instructors (yes, I am one) teach not to drop the elbow, but most players do have at least a slight drop. That does not mean that an elbow drop creates a good stroke - again, it's RESULT vs. REASON (aka cause and effect). A good stroke may or may not have a long follow through and a good stroke may or may not have an elbow drop.

Or another one. The stance is just a base. It doesn't matter how you stand as long as you are balanced. BS BS BS BS BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you put your feet in the wrong position, your hips will be wrong, which will make your shoulders wrong, which will put your (all important) elbow in the wrong place.

This is an EXCELLENT point - I've found that a lot of stroke problems can be fixed just by moving the feet into a different position. Comfort is still a top priority, but getting the body around the cue (not the other way around) is even more important. I played baseball for a long time (I was a pitcher) and leg/foot position is one of the most important parts of throwing the ball. Stride out too far, and the ball goes low; stride out too short, the ball goes high; etc. A pool stroke can be considered a throwing motion, so I try to apply a lot of the things I learned from baseball to pool.

To add fuel to the fire, I just had a discussion with another instructor about the importance of follow through. He said that someone told him that some book said a follow through is not necessary and that he (the instructor) didn't believe that to be true. I told him it most certainly is true (as long as we agree that what the writer really meant was a very short follow through, like 1/16th or 1/32nd of an inch), but it probably isn't easily repeatable, which defeats the purpose of why we teach what we teach. I was able to aid my friend in understanding why a follow through is not absolutely necessary, but we both agreed that we could never teach somebody to play that way simply because it would be too difficult to duplicate from shot to shot. Our discussion was just another example of how misinformation, myths, and misconceptions are so prevalent in our sport, and how cause/effect relationships are often misunderstood.

-djb

 

[pooltchr]

David,
Great post!.. As a baseball pitcher, can you imagine stopping your arm after you released the ball???? While "follow through" may not have any impact on the cue ball, it is absolutely necessary for a consistant stroke. That's why we teach "Finish your stroke" rather than "follow-through".
Follow-through is simply the result of a complete stroke.
Steve

 

[randyg]

We "Finish" our stroke for two reasons:

1. To maintain accelleration.
2. To check our accuracy.

SPF Rules.....randyg

 

[Snapshot9]

Funny ...

but I notice a lot of pros today that 'drop' their elbow on the end of 'some' strokes, not all. Django does it. Some of that may actually kind of a body twitch because they are feeling the pressure. Sometimes those body twitches will invade your normal stroke and become unconscious habits.

The cleanest stroke is the one that has straight lines, and involves the least motion to complete. No wasted motion. The people that raise their elbow up on the backstroke (the hullygully effect) actually are putting wasted motion
into their stroke, which can effect accuracy, especially in tense matches.

Just the same as the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, wasted or improper motion in a stroke, in effect, makes that straight line a wavy one. One then has to implement some measure of control to insure accuracy with a wavy line stroke, therefore actually taking the stroke out of what would be considered a natural stroke. This is just one of the many reasons why having the proper form is so very important.

Willie Mosconi did not drop his elbow on any shots. His form and stroke was straight and true. I studied him very closely in San Diego, as he was and still is one of my Pool idols.

 

[Deadon]

We "Finish" our stroke for two reasons:

1. To maintain accelleration.
2. To check our accuracy.

SPF Rules.....randyg

Randy;

Perhaps an explanation of the mechanical reasons for allowing your arm to come to a stop naturally, would answer the question in a way the poster would understand more easily. I agree with the above completely.

Mike

Mike

 

[Deadon]

would not "elbow drop " be similar to rising up on your shot at the end? it would cause you to not have a even stroke perhaps throwing off accuracy just a bit?

JMHO, rising up or droping your elbow after contact with the cue ball is completed would not change anything as long as the stroke before contact was consistent and accurate. Its when you start moving up or dropping the elbow before or as you hit the CB that affects your shot. Training yourself to not to do either at any point in your stroke, reduces the possibility of them creeping into your stroke too early and affecting your shot, especially under pressure. A safeguard, if you will. I think, that is just one reason most instructors teach a proper completion of the stroke.

 

[Pushout]

I read in Mosconi's first book, just a while ago, to use a short stroke. He may have been referring to Staight pool, though. Some people seem to use a longer stroke playing 9 ball. I've mostly thought that the follow through should end naturally, which for me would be rather short, as I have shorter arms than most. At least, I think so, the follow through, I mean. Not as short as Hopkins, however, which is more of a punch stroke.