interesting stroke discovery

thanks to all for the continued thread. i'm glad to see that others have been getting some inspiration from this! and i've been meaning to report back from the earlier help you all gave me. here's what i've changed:

approach stance from behind a la Jerry Breisath, per Dave's suggestion here
right foot on shot line per Matt Teatrault
much lighter, looser grip, with pinkie off cue, 3rd finger barely touching
follow through, per Fran
working with Joe Tucker 3rd eye away from table

i feel like a new player!!!

and every one of these things has helped.

i went through weeks of grip experimentation, wanting to give each of the ideas suggested here a fair shake. what i've arrived at is a grip (i hesitate even to use that word) that's mostly in my thumb, forefinger and 2nd finger, and much, much lighter than it was, throughout my stroke. the back of my hand almost lets go of the cue on the backstroke, and i feel almost like there's a pin through my thumb/index that the cue rotates through. that's certainly helped my accuracy, but maybe done even more for my touch, which was previously Crazily erratic, sometimes jabbing a safety way too hard, or sending a ball down table i meant to just tap. now i can really feel the cue ball and have a much better idea where i'm sending it.

the approach from behind has revolutionized my aiming. some of you noted how irregular my stance was in the early video, and i feel so much more solid now that i have a standard and well-founded pre shot routine! i now feel that i'm odds on to make shots that were very difficult before, and honestly believe even that i'm 50-50 to make extremely difficult shots, the kind that would get a crowd worked up at a tournament. and when i believe that -- i often make the shot. it's a remarkable turnaround from dogging straight 2-footers a few months ago!

long story short: thank you all for ending my 2011 in a place where i finally feel like my fundamentals have become solid enough to support some big growth in my 14.1 game in 2012!
 
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I'm glad it's working for you Bob!

I've done the grip adjustment in the past like you and yes it did help but you might be careful not to put any pressure on the first two fingers as it can create "new" problems. (dont want to jinx you though!)

FranCrimi - You might be dead-on solving my problem. I think you are right, that I'm applying pressure on the first two fingers, well it's really hard for me to admit that because I'm trying to hold the cue as lightly and relaxed as possible - but friction on my thumb is saying otherwise. for more info pls read below:

Recently i noticed i'm applying pressure on my thumb, because even my thumb was hurting a little bit on the side and a small surface right above the "thumb bend" - where the cue has contact or where the cue is the closest to - on that surface the skin was a little rough - after practice - especially after doing almost all the shots with lots of follow through and POWER. meaning there was some friction there. I've known about it back a few years ago - while doing the bert kinister straight-back draw shots, i would do them really really well, sometimes not so well though - and i realized after practicing about 400-500 straight draw shots 3 times a week, the skin on my thumb right there before it folds, was a little used up or "hard" and you could see traces of "friction" .. at that time i thought , well if i'm doing so power draw shots it's only normal for the thumb to get that...

but now i realize, if i'm getting that and the thumb even starts hurting a little bit , then how come those pro players can play sooo much and they don't seem to have any bit of a problem with their thumb. that lead me to think that i might be putting pressure on the "thumb"

that lead me to a discussion with Bob (cmwbsu) who gave me an indication that i should definitely let the thumb not touch the cue and let it point all the way down.

i did that with success... but now recently I've been practicing lots and I can guarantee you I was quite careful about the thumb being relaxed and not putting any pressure, but just 2 nights ago when I played about 50-100 power strokes (while focusing on thumb to stay loose and follow-through) - EVEN THEN I felt some small pain around that thumb-blend area after practice. and the surface just before where it bends , it was fairly soft at touch so not as bad as it felt after those few hundred long draw shots, but nevertheless there was a a minimal trace of some friction on it. .. I bet that if I went back and practiced long draw shots the way I shot the shots 2 days ago - that this area would get rougher and so accentuating the proof of thumb friction - only that this time I would be doing it while relaxing the thumb - thus proving that there must be "something else" pushing the cue against the thumb and creating that friction - OR maybe its that I let the cue go forward a few millimeters during follow through, which in turn slides ever slightly against the thumb -

one way or another the FranCrimi drill with 3 back fingers on the cue only will definitely be a better guide as to what is happening...

that suggestion made me realize.........oh my , oh my, my grip has been playing tricks on me..because I got rid of the pressure from the thumb... then the only logical explanation about the thumb friction is , there MUST be pressure coming from the index finger, which is pushing the cue against the thumb (although the thumb is relaxed) ! OR, cue is sliding very slightly forward because of the loose grip - thus creating friction on the thumb... which one would it be? my gut feeling says it could very well be the index finger playing a trick on me.

first thing I will do next week is play with the thumb and index finger off the cue as you suggested. I feel this may solve the whole grip issue once for all!

Even now im sitting and imagining your idea of stroking with my last 3 fingers on the cue and I can already feel the ball in the long straight-in shot going in without a problem! It's like I didn't even pick up the cue and I feel cured! LoL

what can I say. I'm reaaaaallly glad this whole discussion about fundamentals is taking place.

i remember back in the days i was probably the only one working on my fundamentals in the whole pool room and the other people in the league found it really odd and thought I was kinda wasting my time. they kept telling me and ridiculing my long straight-in shot practices , that i even began to think that they're right.

These discussions and wisdom acquired through practice on fundamentals with all these corrections leading often to frustration - now leads me to be ABSOLUTELY convinced that Correct Pool Fundamentals are the One and Only KEY to become the very Best you can be.
 
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wigglybridge said:
hmmm. well, that experiment didn't go so well. tried using Tim's alignment technique for about 1.25 hours tonight, but it seems like a step backwards. was frequently missing to the right.

i think i have enough on my plate right now with the new stance Matt has me in, stepping into the shot á la Dave, gripping per various folks, and following through per Fran!
Click to expand...

I would agree with Bob here. Tim's aliignment technique might get your body and arm aligned with the line of aim, but if you're left eye dominant player like me ,this won't exactly work [update, im right eye dominant.. just checked. so i was wrong all these years , lol ], also it depends on the construction of your bones mainly and your size , your shoulder-arm--forearm ..... you could be relaxed standing up and the cue pointing in one direction - then when you get down and your arm strokes, it points to a new direction , or your head and eyes are not where they should be - moving your head will put more stress on neck and back .. so in the end you're creating a new mess .. . :/

I would suggest the following instead (steps don't need to be in order except step 7 should be done last):

1) walking into the line of the shot,
2) making sure your back foot is somewhere near or on the line of your shot
3) following through all the way through the ball at 3-4 diamonds distance just as Bob showed in his recent video
4) following through even further than you normally do, even up to 2x the usual follow through.
5) making sure the grip-wrist is loose - forearm loose and perpendicular to the ground when hitting q-ball and
6) the other items Bob mentioned above
7) THEN from this point on, adjust your body NATURALLY to the comfy "zone" while keeping in mind steps 1-6 in the forefront of your mind

p.s. not sure about this 3rd eye trainer. let us know how that goes for you Bob
 
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FranCrimi said:
mmasou:

1) ..... Try shortening your bridge length on those shorter tricky shots. Adjust your back hand up as well so that your arm below your elbow is hanging approximately perpindicular to the ground when your tip impacts the ball. .....
Click to expand...

FranCrimi, what is meant by the explanation in bold?
moving the hand forward on the cue correct? "hand up" is a bit confusing to me... it can mean many things, like lifting the hand up a bit... which i think is not what you meant..
thanks
 
initally i adjusted my swing arm but it was very dificult to get use to it being away from my body further than normal. so i droped my chin on the cue during my practice stroke and follow through and noticed that my cue left my chin inward toward my neck at the end of my stroke when my hand drove toward my peck muscle. so now i force the cue to stay on my chin. this is uncomfortable at times because i dont like to be this low and i dont have the best posture and i strain to see the long shots but i feel i can train my stroke to stay strait this way and when it feels natural ill come back up a couple inches. Wrong or right i dont know but im making more shots and feeling like i made a breakthrough in my game.
 
jacoby its a good first step i think.

---------------------

I found the proper name for the harder surface on the side of the thumb.. it's called a Callus.. i would get it on the side of my thumb playing tennis, or a few years back... while practicing hundreds of long straight back spin shots (or power draw shots)... ... and.. a few days ago (before writing in this thread) while playing a lot of shots with full follow through, i felt a little discomfort in that side of the thumb again, and you could see a little bit of friction on the skin of the thumb.

the thing that I'm pretty sure about though, is that the callus or beginning of a callus on the side of the thumb can greatly vary depending on how you hold (grip) the cue.

i've experimented in the past holding the cue mostly as a cradle and forget about the thumb being involved, thus letting the thumb stay away from the cue as much as possible . that was a response to the over-friction on the side of the thumb.

maybe I was doing that "v' grip as per Lee, or maybe putting pressure on first two fingers unknowingly as per FranCrimi...

now coming back again to the V grip, I respect the opinions encouraging it, but on the other hand I feel i get so much follow through and "smoothness", by removing the thumb of the equation . also, what about the callus.. i'm not happy with it, if the V grip will enforce that. what if you wish to practice draw shots, will the V grip destroy the side of your thumb?

just to give you an idea, back in may of 2011, i had to stop playing, because after buying my mezz which had a rubber-like grip, i litterally tore a piece of skin on the side of my thumb off , by breaking with it a few times at full follow through, obviously then I stepped back and realized that my grip must be messed up.

here's a pic of the thumb wound a few days after the injury in may 2011 (it's completely healed by now):

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1606/img0168hw.jpg

i was browsing AZ posts and some people write this is normal if you play lots of pool.

i don't think it's normal, im thinking that's a problem with the grip, isn't it?

I used to get it mainly when doing 300-400 power draw shots a day, but that's probably due to gripping or applying some tension unknowingly during follow through ... that's what I would be thinking, not that it's "normal".. otherwise
Lee and Bob both mentioned about using the V grip, then I found this post by Patrick Johnson who says you will get a callus on each side (side of thumb and forefinger) if you practice this V grip correctly... .

so okay the V grip has it's many advantages, but if it's going to make my already sore side of thumb - even more sore, then it's not physically effective in the long run.

Lee maybe you can give some insight into this, thanks.
 
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The only purpose the thumb serves is to keep the cue from falling out of the cradle.

Extreme cue stick speed is developed thru a coordinated effort from the fingers, wrist and forearm with little to no tention in the forearm.

John
 
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Hi John, yes you are right.
I'm not moving my thumb or applying any pressure. the friction of the cue against it causes the so called "callus" discussed above , depending on the way the thumb is. I was experimenting last week the grip of pointing the thumb completely down, thus the wrist is slightly outwards , and I stroked a few hours like that with full follow through.

details below..

stroke was good, and I wouldn't think there was any tension in my grip.
so after, i checked thumb and there was some sign of friction on it.
so possibly it's from the cue sliding against it. but there could be many other reasons:

a) there's pressure coming from other parts of the hand or from forefinger,
b) holding the cue too loose thus slidiing against the thumb creating that friction
c) some kind of un-wanted twisting involved at the follow through - thus creating the friction
d) the thumb pointing down makes the cue touch the entire area of side of thumb until the nuckle - thus more risk of friction

I can tell you a 100% guaranteed fact from my experimentation:

when cradling the cue (loosely) with hand pointing down under gravity (no pressure on the wrist) - there is almost no friction induced on the thumb

when holding the cue with thumb straight down perpendicular to the floor, (wrist is turned slightly outward), thus making cue in line with arm and thus preventing any side stroking - there is some minor friction on the side of the thumb because by pointing the thumb down you are bringing closer to it.

anyone willing, try it and see , let me know if you get the same observation.

best is to try full follow strokes , letting your stroke out with full follow through... for at least 30 mins, maybe an hour... then maybe you'll get what im talking about.
 
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Standing up with your arms hanging straight down look down at your grip hand. You will notice the natural hanging of the thumb and index finger. When you grip (cradle) the cue that doesn't change. In other words your thumb and index finger stay in their natural state and do not grip the cue. If your thumb naturally points straight down then keep it that way. Don't force your hand to do anything unnatural.

I cradle the cue with my two middle fingers, My thumb, index finger and little finger are just hanging around enjoying the ride. Don't get me wrong my grip of the cue is just enough to feel the cue in the palm and heel.

If you look at a lot of top players you will notice that their index finger is not really involved with the grip.

What to strive for is no tension in the gripping of the cue.

John
 
mmasou said:
FranCrimi, what is meant by the explanation in bold?
moving the hand forward on the cue correct? "hand up" is a bit confusing to me... it can mean many things, like lifting the hand up a bit... which i think is not what you meant..
thanks
Click to expand...

Yes, I meant to move it forward. Sorry for the confusion.

Please feel free to call me Fran.

(Crimi is my last name)
 
ok Fran thanks.
---------

thanks john. i'd speculate the unwanted pressure from my index finger could be the problem in my grip..

you're correct about thumb (and index) naturally hanging down to the floor, but looking precisely, standing up with arms straight down, the thumb is pointing down with a 10 to 15 degree angle, not straight down. when i tried the "thumb fully down" grip, i actually rotated wrist by that 10-15 degree angle.

i suppose the 10-15 degrees is not a big deal and i should return to cradling cue completely as was before - less pressure on wrist and more natural , but the disadvantage is the 10-15 degrees is not giving the full straight back and forth stroke, there is some slight side movement involved and I think I don't feel totally comfortable with that... and that could be part of me missing long straight shots etc. but i'll check with Fran's idea on gripping with last 3 fingers as a "test" to see if i'm twisting due to pressure to first 2 fingers

going to pool room today/tomorrow, will experiment on all that and report back...

sorry Bob for taking over your thread i hope u don't mind me posting all these messages. I got carried away by reading all these posts because this subject on fundamentals is on my mind probably since the day i picked up a pool cue, and still haven't figured it out. Lol
 
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mmasou said:
ok Fran thanks.
---------

thanks john. i'd speculate the unwanted pressure from my index finger could be the problem in my grip..

you're correct about thumb (and index) naturally hanging down to the floor, but looking precisely, standing up with arms straight down, the thumb is pointing down with a 10 to 15 degree angle, not straight down. when i tried the "thumb fully down" grip, i actually rotated wrist by that 10-15 degree angle.

i suppose the 10-15 degrees is not a big deal and i should return to cradling cue completely as was before - less pressure on wrist and more natural , but the disadvantage is the 10-15 degrees is not giving the full straight back and forth stroke, there is some slight side movement involved and I think I don't feel totally comfortable with that... and that could be part of me missing long straight shots etc. but i'll check with Fran's idea on gripping with last 3 fingers as a "test" to see if i'm twisting due to pressure to first 2 fingers

going to pool room today/tomorrow, will experiment on all that and report back...

sorry Bob for taking over your thread i hope u don't mind me posting all these messages. I got carried away by reading all these posts because this subject on fundamentals is on my mind probably since the day i picked up a pool cue, and still haven't figured it out. Lol
Click to expand...

Yeah, with your arm hanging naturally your thumb will be slightly in toward your leg. Its natural. You will also notice bringing your hand up without changing the shape and looking at the fingers that the index finger has to be made to grip something and that the last three fingers naturally are prepared to grip something.

Keep it simple, grip (cradle) the cue with the last three fingers the thumb will keep the cue from falling on the floor.

At the set position (at the cue ball) you should feel the cue in the palm of your hand, bringing the cue back you release the cue from the palm. All of this is to help feel the cue ball with no tension.

Have fun at the pool hall tomorrow.

I have my own 4.5 x 9.0 at home so I get to practice every day. All I really practice are the fundementals so that when I go out into the field I can focus on the shot and position play and not be concerned with the fundementals.

Its the little things that can screw things up. And those are the things that should be practiced until they come naturally without conscious thought.

There should be no side movement of the cue when you bring it back. This would indicate that you are not lining up a point on your grip hand with the line of the shot.

I'm not an instructor............Fran is.........if she asked you to call..........man.....I'd be all over that one.

John
 
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John i thought that too, but when you read Fran's post again, what it meant was, "you can call me Fran, not FranCrimi"

it didn't mean to physically call on the phone :)
 
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