IPT 2007 - 7 Open Events

[TheOne]

I was browsing the IPT site and spotted a few things whic I thought I'd share:

1. The recent 25 Open Event Qualifiers gradually increase in popularity bringing in 54k (week1), 65k(week2), 79k(week3), 85k(week4), 98k(week5) for a total of $381,000! (minus free entries, challenge matches and any revenue from misc sales like cloth etc)
   
2. I was suprised to find that the IPT does mention the 2007 100k guarantee on their website: "IPT hopefuls including the bottom 50 ranked
   players from the 2006 season (who lose their tour cards) will have the opportunity to secure their 2007 IPT Tour Card and the $100,000 guaranteed income that comes with a 2007 tour membership." (I copied it just in case it changed after the end of year qualifiers )
   
3. The reason there are more events next year is that their is an increase in the number of Open Events, which of course means more qualifiers. There will be 7 OPEN events but the number of restricted events for IPT card holders only remains the same, players, masters, and KOTH. Also suprise suprise the 2008 season lists 11 Open Events with qualifiers and the number of IPT card holder events remain the same.
   

Oh I also watched the excellent promo video again, the one that starts with "In a world where poker rules, the king is about to be dethroned"

 

[Grilled Cheese]

There were around 40 free entries, that's just from challenge matches alone. That's not counting the 3 free entries given to the runner-ups from the Tour Card Qualifiers.

Your numbers are assuming everyone paid the $1000, rather than $500. I'm sure the vast majority paid $1000 as $500 is a bum deal, but I'd have to guess that a few people did the $500 thing.


So the $$$ brought in from Qualifiers is closer to $300,000, give or take $5,000.

Still a lot. No matter how you cut it, KT is still putting up the vast majority of the money. It must cost a lot to set up that type of tourny and production.

 

[TheOne]

There were around 40 free entries, that's just from challenge matches alone. That's not counting the 3 free entries given to the runner-ups from the Tour Card Qualifiers.

Your numbers are assuming everyone paid the $1000, rather than $500. I'm sure the vast majority paid $1000 as $500 is a bum deal, but I'd have to guess that a few people did the $500 thing.


So the $$$ brought in from Qualifiers is closer to $300,000, give or take $5,000.

Still a lot. No matter how you cut it, KT is still putting up the vast majority of the money. It must cost a lot to set up that type of tourny and production.

Yes thats why I wrote:

"(minus free entries, challenge matches and any revenue from misc sales like cloth etc)"

But agree 300k is not bad start from broke pool players, certainly can see where theyre going. Could be a hell of a lot more by next, will be interesting to see how it goes?

 

[Keith Buck]

The recent 25 Open Event Qualifiers gradually increase in popularity bringing in 54k (week1), 65k(week2), 79k(week3), 85k(week4), 98k(week5) for a total of $381,000! (minus free entries, challenge matches and any revenue from misc sales like cloth etc)

Didn't they give a free entry to the players who came 3rd through 6th also? So that would be 4,000 from the challenge table(cash+entries) and another 4,000 for placing which would be 200,000 for 25 qualifiers(4,000x2x25) leaving 181,000, much less than first prize in Vegas.

The real complainers should be the people in the World Series of Poker. With all the money someone is making from TV and sales(cards,chips,souvenirs) they still take a percentage out of the entry fees before paying out. (56,190,000 in entry fees, less than 53,000,000 paid out(less than 95%))

 

[memikey]

Yes they did Keith but you can't deduct the 4,000 from the 3 to 6 placers in each of the last 5 qualifiers.Effectively that 4 x5 = 20k comes off the entry fee income fror the next open event (obviously there wasn't another NA Open qualifier in which those 20 players could use their free entries).

 

[jsp]

I think this thread only disproves the myth that the IPT will be a tour funded entirely by the players. The numbers just don't add up and will never add up, considering the huge payouts promised.

The ONLY way for the IPT to survive and to sustain the large payouts is through corporate sponsorship. For the next 2-3 years, KT will be taking the financial hit himself by paying out the vast majority of the prize money (not to mention tournament and broadcasting expenses) from his own pocket such that this tour can get off the ground.

Obviously, the plan is that by the 3rd or 4th year (if there is one), the IPT will obtain enough publicity such that it becomes a sulf-sustaining tour through the funds from its corporate sponsors. However, that is still THE BIG IF. (And I believe that IF there is still an IPT tour in 3 years, it will NOT be an American tour, but either a European or Asian tour with predominantly European or Asian sponsors. At this point, I still can't envision American companies pouring their money into pool.)

So by TheOne running the numbers, it is apparent that the IPT is not looking to maximize its profits by posting an "expensive" qualifier entry fee (Income from NA Open qualifiers = $200k-$300k, NA Open total prize money = $2000k). Even if you reduce the entry fees by a factor of 4 such that you can increase qualifier turnouts by a factor of 20, you still wouldn't even come close to funding this tour by itself.

So I believe they arrived at the $1k/$1.5k number purely through logistical reasons. They didn't want to reduce the entry fee enough such that any schmoe with a cue in their hand would try to qualify, resulting in qualifiers that are 100-200 players deep. Likewise, they didn't want to make the fees ridiculously expensive such that only 3-4 players show up.

At first, I was dumbfounded by the idea of holding 25 qualifiers world-wide for each of these open tournaments. I thought this by itself would be a logistical nightmare (I posted that 5 qualifiers handing out 5 spots each would be more than plenty). But by the respectable turnouts of all the NA qualifiers, the buzz that each qualifier created, and most importantly by the talented individuals who won qualifying spots for the tournament, I think the whole qualification system for the NA Open has been a big success.

Assuming nothing catastrophic happens to the NA Open tournament itself, I think the number of qualifiers for the World Open should only be much bigger. Here's to hopin'.

 

[Keith Buck]

Yes they did Keith but you can't deduct the 4,000 from the 3 to 6 placers in each of the last 5 qualifiers.Effectively that 4 x5 = 20k comes off the entry fee income fror the next open event (obviously there wasn't another NA Open qualifier in which those 20 players could use their free entries).

It's not a big deal but they still had challenge tables for free entries in the last five qualifiers so I assumed placing got the player a free entry into a World Open qualifier as well. Of course, you know what they say about assuming, lol.

 

[TheOne]

I think this thread only disproves the myth that the IPT will be a tour funded entirely by the players. The numbers just don't add up and will never add up, considering the huge payouts promised.

JSP, you've hit the nail on the head, unfortunately it was the wrong nail!

Look at the facts: open qualifiers first, stacks of qualifiers,IPT said they EXPECT atleast 64 players at each event, number of OPEN events in future years increased, number of non-open events remain the same, references to poker, other insider info

You would have to be blind with sandy head fetish to not see what the aim is here. The fact that the numbers so far don't add up does not mean it isn't their aim. If they had acheived the 64 players per event they where convinced they were going to get they would have raised: $1.6m dollars which would cover the bulk of the $2,050,000 in prize money.

Its obvious that the aim of the IPT is to create a tour funded as much as possible by the players through qualifiers. Any short fall will probaly be covered by misc sales, sponsors including of course his natural cures TV coverage. He will be effectively getting hundreds of hours of world wide TV coverage for a few hundred G's. If he starts selling truck loads of DVD's and see's real cash from any of the TV deals then he's laughing.

My only concern is what happens if the pool players that he hopes will fund the bulk of the prize fund run out of cash...

 

[Keith Buck]

The One, you used to complain that the tour wasn't open like the Eurotour because they selected 150 members. Now you are finding a way to complain that there are too many Open tournaments. It's starting to sound like you can find a complaint no matter what they do.

 

[TheOne]

The One, you used to complain that the tour wasn't open like the Eurotour because they selected 150 members. Now you are finding a way to complain that there are too many Open tournaments. It's starting to sound like you can find a complaint no matter what they do.

a) Its not open like the euro tour, it has qualifiers the Euro Tour, like the US Open is a true Open event.
b) I'm not complaining about an increase in "open" events, I'm reading between the lines and commentating on what I think the IPT are trying to do. I just want to see it survive long term and hope they are not pinning long term survival to a tour funded by qualifiers!

PS
Please see post regarding black,white,or grey, I was hoping thus would put to rest the IPT hater labellers on here since most of us are grey (eg pro IPT).

 

[jsp]

Its obvious that the aim of the IPT is to create a tour funded as much as possible by the players through qualifiers. Any short fall will probaly be covered by misc sales, sponsors including of course his natural cures TV coverage. He will be effectively getting hundreds of hours of world wide TV coverage for a few hundred G's. If he starts selling truck loads of DVD's and see's real cash from any of the TV deals then he's laughing.

Anything-Raised-to-the-Zeroth-Power,

I'm no accountant, but if this is really the IPT's plan to finance its tour, then we just proved the IPT is royally screwed. Even IF every qualifier was packed to the brim with 64 entries (AND assuming that each entry paid his/her $1k fee), they would only raise $1.6M to help fund the $2M in guaranteed prize money. That still comes to only 80% of the total tournament prize money.

But even IF the qualifiers happen to pay 100% of the prize money, the prize money alone does not constitute half (maybe even much less than half) of the overall expenses to fund the entire tournament. I'm no tournament director or event organizer, but I'm guessing it would cost at least another $2M or so to rent out a gi-normous venue for over a week, hire the movers to assemble and disassemble all the tables, feed all the players, and of course pay for the wages of the entire video crew with all the cameras...blah blah blah.

Also, don't forget there are 3 guaranteed tournaments in the 2006 and 2007 schedule that are not "open" events, and thus no income brought in by qualifiers. That is a total of over $3.5M in prize money. How will the IPT fund the prize money for those, let alone all the other overhead to run the tournaments?

IF the tour was to be funded mostly by the players through qualifier fees, then the IPT would have to charge at least $4k-5k per entry fee AND assume that all 25 qualifiers would be packed with 64 or more participants. Even if you don't know the basics of supply and demand, you'd still know that this scenario is impossible.

But who knows...maybe you're right about their intentions on trying to fund the tour mostly through the players. If that is the case, then the IPT should definitely fire its accountant.

 

[Keith Buck]

PS
Please see post regarding black,white,or grey, I was hoping thus would put to rest the IPT hater labellers on here since most of us are grey (eg pro IPT).

I did read that post and I know that you keep saying (and I tend to believe you) that you want the IPT to succeed. However, there are different shades of grey and since it seems like 9 out of ten of your posts (I haven't counted, this is just the way it seems) involve some kind of complaint , it makes you appear to be a darker grey than most.

I may be naive/wrong, but here in North America pool is nothing but a recreational activity with very little opportunity to make a living even for the top pros without supplementing their income with instructing or something like that. Even if KT does screw everybody by running the tour for a couple years and then quitting I think it is a risk worth taking.

Don't take this post the wrong way because I do respect your opinions and you are a much better player than I will ever be (and probably much more knowledgable about the inner workings of the pool world). Maybe part of the problem is the difference in the growth of pool in Europe and Asia compared to North America.

 

[TheOne]

Anything-Raised-to-the-Zeroth-Power,

I'm no accountant, but if this is really the IPT's plan to finance its tour, then we just proved the IPT is royally screwed. Even IF every qualifier was packed to the brim with 64 entries (AND assuming that each entry paid his/her $1k fee), they would only raise $1.6M to help fund the $2M in guaranteed prize money. That still comes to only 80% of the total tournament prize money.

But even IF the qualifiers happen to pay 100% of the prize money, the prize money alone does not constitute half (maybe even much less than half) of the overall expenses to fund the entire tournament. I'm no tournament director or event organizer, but I'm guessing it would cost at least another $2M or so to rent out a gi-normous venue for over a week, hire the movers to assemble and disassemble all the tables, feed all the players, and of course pay for the wages of the entire video crew with all the cameras...blah blah blah.

Also, don't forget there are 3 guaranteed tournaments in the 2006 and 2007 schedule that are not "open" events, and thus no income brought in by qualifiers. That is a total of over $3.5M in prize money. How will the IPT fund the prize money for those, let alone all the other overhead to run the tournaments?

IF the tour was to be funded mostly by the players through qualifier fees, then the IPT would have to charge at least $4k-5k per entry fee AND assume that all 25 qualifiers would be packed with 64 or more participants. Even if you don't know the basics of supply and demand, you'd still know that this scenario is impossible.

But who knows...maybe you're right about their intentions on trying to fund the tour mostly through the players. If that is the case, then the IPT should definitely fire its accountant.

JSP,
I don't disagree with much of what your saying, but the atctions/statements of what the IPT suggests the opposite. People say the high entry is to filter out the serious players so tournaments are smaller and more managable. But this could be done by having one big qualifer with a high entry, of course its to raise revenue. Why would they increase the world open entry if this wasn't the case? Of course they wouldn't have swapped the tournaments around either, but you know all that. We can pull numbers out the air all day long but we don't know the ins or the outs of the IPT finances, all we can do is comment on the visible decissions they make and ever sign so far is that the main aim of the IPT is to generate as much income as they can via the players. I have said before if this keeps the tour alive in the short-med term then go for it, just hope its not the long term goal, theyre references to poker sure doesn't help!

Keith, sorry you feel like that but youre dead wrong. Maybe its because people debate the bad decissions more than the good ones who knows.

Maybe its because much of what concerns me doesn't concern the full time players or the fans. Like Steve Lipsky I would have a lot more to give up (eg well paying career/degree) than some players. For me to give up my job and play pool full time (which the IPT would demand, just to get on it let alone next years schedule) I would really need the tour to survive long term. If I spent more than a year away from my day job it would be pretty difficult to get employed again. Hope this explains some of my concerns and why I'm a bit twitchy.

I would love nothing more than to quit my day job and play on the IPT, the events they have held so far looked fantastic. But definately not if it was just for 1 or 2 years. I might as well work and play the euro tour/us open/world champs etc. well if they survive and Jake doesn't get his way!

 

[hobokenapa]

I just hope qualifiers are held in the North-East USA for the next Open event. Not a single one for the North American Open.

 

[TheOne]

I just hope qualifiers are held in the North-East USA for the next Open event. Not a single one for the North American Open.

Hi Hob, I'm sure they have one listed somewhere around NY for the next one. Didn't they have some in Baltamore, MD etc, theyre not that far away but I know there wasn't any around NY.

 

[ScottW]

money talk

Pretty much what I said in another thread.

I assume they're gunning for some sponsors, to help cover the differences. Otherwise, it's KT tossing in lots of cash for no tangible return.

 

[onepocketchump]

a) Its not open like the euro tour, it has qualifiers the Euro Tour, like the US Open is a true Open event.
b) I'm not complaining about an increase in "open" events, I'm reading between the lines and commentating on what I think the IPT are trying to do. I just want to see it survive long term and hope they are not pinning long term survival to a tour funded by qualifiers!

PS
Please see post regarding black,white,or grey, I was hoping thus would put to rest the IPT hater labellers on here since most of us are grey (eg pro IPT).

The US Open is not an open event. Women cannot participate in the US Open. A parapeligic male can participate in the US Open but a woman cannot. It is a discriminatory event.

Before you complain about the Women's US Open not being open to men, you're right, because it's billed as the WPBA US OPEN. Just as local tournaments for B players aren't open to me or Johhny Archer and wheelchair events are off limits as well.

Even if the IPT were to plan a tour funded by qualifiers, so what? That would be a system in which any player with the talent and the backing could play their way onto the tour. Everything requires a base. The prize is a shot at huge money. Either the players would buy into it at the price set or the prices would be adjusted. Frankly I think that you will see that the prices will be adjusted to whatever the market will bear.

Still though, the numbers don't make sense for the IPT to be funded by entry fees. Even if all the qualifers had 64 players in them then there would not have been enough money to cover the prizes let alone the production costs. Kevin is thinking WAY bigger than the old model of player funded tournaments. He wants to OWN POOL like Vince McMann OWNS wrestling. He wants to make pool players household names so that he can cash in the licensing, merchandising, and commercializing of the game. He has stated this to be his goal and I believe it. Why settle for making a couple thousand per tournament when you can make tens of millions per tour year?

John

 

[ScottW]

The US Open is not an open event. Women cannot participate in the US Open. A parapeligic male can participate in the US Open but a woman cannot. It is a discriminatory event.

Before you complain about the Women's US Open not being open to men, you're right, because it's billed as the WPBA US OPEN. Just as local tournaments for B players aren't open to me or Johhny Archer and wheelchair events are off limits as well.

Yeah, but are hermaphrodites just screwed all around?

Oh the humor!

 

[TheOne]

The US Open is not an open event. Women cannot participate in the US Open. A parapeligic male can participate in the US Open but a woman cannot. It is a discriminatory event.

Before you complain about the Women's US Open not being open to men, you're right, because it's billed as the WPBA US OPEN. Just as local tournaments for B players aren't open to me or Johhny Archer and wheelchair events are off limits as well.

Even if the IPT were to plan a tour funded by qualifiers, so what? That would be a system in which any player with the talent and the backing could play their way onto the tour. Everything requires a base. The prize is a shot at huge money. Either the players would buy into it at the price set or the prices would be adjusted. Frankly I think that you will see that the prices will be adjusted to whatever the market will bear.

Still though, the numbers don't make sense for the IPT to be funded by entry fees. Even if all the qualifers had 64 players in them then there would not have been enough money to cover the prizes let alone the production costs. Kevin is thinking WAY bigger than the old model of player funded tournaments. He wants to OWN POOL like Vince McMann OWNS wrestling. He wants to make pool players household names so that he can cash in the licensing, merchandising, and commercializing of the game. He has stated this to be his goal and I believe it. Why settle for making a couple thousand per tournament when you can make tens of millions per tour year?

John

DOn't really want to argue the semantics of what is open or not but I think you know what I mean.

With regards to the tour funding, I hope your right I really do its just not what we've seen so far. Fingers crossed it will change soon.

 

[onepocketchump]

DOn't really want to argue the semantics of what is open or not but I think you know what I mean.

With regards to the tour funding, I hope your right I really do its just not what we've seen so far. Fingers crossed it will change soon.

Well I don't either. The IPT Open events are open to any person who qualifies for them. The US Open in tennis is the same way as is the US Open in Golf. In fact, not only do you need to qualify to be in the US Open in golf but you need to be able to make the cut in order to play in the main tournament as well. And women can play in the golf US Open if they make it.

Even if the Behrman US Open is truly open to any male with $500 (parapeligics included) the prize money is still WAY UNDER what the IPT offers when the entry fee is compared to the prize fund.

When I was in Taiwan, I played in a tournament where they had flights throughout the week, mini-tournaments with sixteen players each to qualify for the main tournament on the weekend. You paid $10 for the minis plus table time if you lost and you could play in as many minis as you wanted to. No prize money, the winner of the mini got to advance to the main tournament. The main tournament had a fixed prize payout. The pool room ran dozens of minis each night for five nights. I don't speak Chinese so I couldn't exactly get any info about how the players felt about the system but as I was there for two nights it seemed to me that the minis filled up each time with ease.

So the cost of getting to the main tournament was totally dependent on the skill of the player, luck of the draw AND how much they were willing to spend trying. Exactly how it should be. Players should be willing to contribute to the system and be willing to earn a spot and not just buy their way in.

There are players in this country who are called Professionals that don't deserve that title in a million years. These are people who have about as much talent as your average APA 7. They are called professionals because they bought their way into an organization called the United Poolplayers Association. They didn't have to qualify to earn the right to be called professional players.

Neither did some of the players on the current IPT roster. They "bought" their way on through good personal marketing. Within two years though each and every player on the IPT's Touring Pro top 150 will have earned the right to be there without question and will have the compensation that goes with that status.

Wouldn't it be less fair for the IPT to hold qualifiers where they are charging $100 per man and taking 1000 players of whom 970 have no chance to be competitive on the IPT than to charge $1000/$1500 and get 30 players who can be competitive and a few who aren't but have money to burn?

There is not a player alive who can buy their way onto the IPT as it is now set up. They must EARN it by beating world beaters. Why should that honor be cheapend?

John