IPT, What pocket size should they "really" use?
- Thread starter Celtic
- Start date
3" pockets and shag carpet 
4.5 is perfect on a Gold Crown, or Diamond IMHO smaller is ok for 1-pocket, but to play 9-ball or 14.1 it gets to be too tight. Instead of making the play enjoyable to watch I think it gets to be too tenative. I'd like to see 100 ball runs and multiple racks of 9-ball. I hate watching balls rattle and spit out, unless it's my opponent and my game ball is hanging!
Pocket Size
I voted for 4.5 inch pockets. I think 4.75 inch would be better. If everyone wants such tight pockets, why don't we just play on snooker tables. There is also the angle of the cut of the pockets and depth of the throat of the slate to consider.
I owned a pool hall in Bloomington MN for 10 years. I had my front 6 tables tightened up to 4.5 inch pockets after hearing all the complaining about bucket pockets. I lost half of my business for about 4 months untill I restored them to 4 7/8 tight BCA specs.
All the good players who said they wanted tight equipment would not play or gamble on them. The one pocket players didn't care. The 9-ball players just would not play on them. They would practice on them, but would go some where else to gamble. I gave them what they wanted, but they didn't realy want it. Be careful of what you ask for.
There is a local pool hall that has Korean tables and they are as tough as any tables. They are exactlywhat every one is asking for. I like the tables because they bank great and I only play one pocket. That pool hall is going broke only because most people don't like to play on this tough equipment.
My tables were tougher than the other pool halls in the
twin Cities with the 4 7/8" Gold Crowns. I even had 3 Pro cut Diamonds. I always used to laugh when my customers would practice to go to another pool hall for a tournament. When they would come back and tell me they lost. I would ask, Why? They always said they couldn't get used to those bucket pockets. Figure that out.
JP Alexis
I voted for 4.5 inch pockets. I think 4.75 inch would be better. If everyone wants such tight pockets, why don't we just play on snooker tables. There is also the angle of the cut of the pockets and depth of the throat of the slate to consider.
I owned a pool hall in Bloomington MN for 10 years. I had my front 6 tables tightened up to 4.5 inch pockets after hearing all the complaining about bucket pockets. I lost half of my business for about 4 months untill I restored them to 4 7/8 tight BCA specs.
All the good players who said they wanted tight equipment would not play or gamble on them. The one pocket players didn't care. The 9-ball players just would not play on them. They would practice on them, but would go some where else to gamble. I gave them what they wanted, but they didn't realy want it. Be careful of what you ask for.
There is a local pool hall that has Korean tables and they are as tough as any tables. They are exactlywhat every one is asking for. I like the tables because they bank great and I only play one pocket. That pool hall is going broke only because most people don't like to play on this tough equipment.
My tables were tougher than the other pool halls in the
twin Cities with the 4 7/8" Gold Crowns. I even had 3 Pro cut Diamonds. I always used to laugh when my customers would practice to go to another pool hall for a tournament. When they would come back and tell me they lost. I would ask, Why? They always said they couldn't get used to those bucket pockets. Figure that out.
JP Alexis
Pro spec. equipment vs. running a pool hall is a different matter altogether.
The main problem is that pockets are more generous, whatever the size, when new cloth is laid down. So pockets need to be tighter than standard to compensate. Every year at the WPC, the TV table plays a lot easier due to the new cloth + TV lights. The pockets should be around 4 ins.
The main problem is that pockets are more generous, whatever the size, when new cloth is laid down. So pockets need to be tighter than standard to compensate. Every year at the WPC, the TV table plays a lot easier due to the new cloth + TV lights. The pockets should be around 4 ins.
Making the equipment tougher to use/handle is used in many sports, especially where athletes push the boundaries of what's possible just a bit too much. Pool is no exception.
Pro tournaments absolutely need tight pockets because televised races aren't very long. Better players must have a measurable advantage. 9ball must be more than a breaking contest. I want to see pro's miss here and there. I want to see them have a bit of trouble even running "simple" layouts.
Anyone heard of any pro complaining of pocket size at either WPC or US Open?
If pool halls are really scared about suffering bad business because of tighter pockets, maybe they should install a few bar boxes for the bangers...
Pro tournaments absolutely need tight pockets because televised races aren't very long. Better players must have a measurable advantage. 9ball must be more than a breaking contest. I want to see pro's miss here and there. I want to see them have a bit of trouble even running "simple" layouts.
Anyone heard of any pro complaining of pocket size at either WPC or US Open?
If pool halls are really scared about suffering bad business because of tighter pockets, maybe they should install a few bar boxes for the bangers...
I find this to be an interesting subject so I just might write a book here. I'll probably hit both sides of the discussion before I'm done.
There is a standard for pocket size and I'm not going to look it up right now. I'll just say it is more generous than what you folks are saying you want.
However the thread is about what size should be used in pro events. I'm not sure what size it would be. I'm going to mention a size below here but I'm not positive it is the size I'm going to describe, so if I say it wrong just tell me what size I'm really talking about, I think I can describe it. Pockets for pro events should be big enough that there is a minimal margin of error on hard hit down the rail shots. Seems to me this has as much to do with if not more to do with how deep the drop off is in the pockets. When I say 'minimal margin of error' I do mean very minimal. If there is no margin for error and requires the shot to be perfect, it eliminates the shot. The general rule, 'if the safety is equally difficult or more difficult than the shot, take the shot'. If you take away at least a very minimal margin of error you increase the number of safeties significantly.
So here is the problem as I see it. If you make the pockets big enough to give this small margin of error on down the rail shots, then the pockets are so big that normal (not down the rail or hit slowly down the rail) are to easy. My solution is make the pockets small enough to make the normal shot not automatic and make the depth of the pocket drop off shallow enough to give a slight margin of error on hard hit rail shots. I think I talking about just slightly smaller and slightly less deep than the standard GC4.
First off, one easy thing to figure out is the absolute minimum size. What is the smallest size that should be considered? Aren't the balls 2 and 1/4 inches in diameter? I think they are so there is your absolute minimum. 4 and 1/2 inches. Two balls wide is the absolute minimum. A shot past another ball sitting to the side but in the pocket should be difficult but possible to make. So that is what I think would be the absolute minimum, two balls wide, 4.5 inches. We are talking pool here, not snooker.
Second, what is the maximum? The size of Texas? na I don't think this matters much cause were are not really talking about that but for the purpose of this let's say 5 inches. I think that was the largest of the choices above anyway. What we are trying to discuss is, for the pros, how close to the absolute minimum do you want to go?
I would say just slightly above the minimum say 4 and 5/8 to 4 and 3/4 inches. That would keep it small enough to make sure the pros aren't just snapping them all in the pockets.
What do I mean by snapping them all in the pockets? The answer to that is probably why this is prominent on my mind this morning. Yesterday I emailed my friend to say, 'are we still on for going to the pool hall after work?' His reply was, 'I forgot to put my sticks in the car. Lets go to the VFW instead, that way I can stop at the house on the way and get my sticks.' So now instead of us going to the pool hall and getting some good practice, we are going to the VFW to deal with putting quarters up. When I get to my turn to play I put my quarters in and keep the table for about 11 or 12 games, don't remember for sure. So what is it that I don't like about this? I know it is coming. Some player that couldn't run 7 wide open balls and then the 8 ball on a 9 footer with good pockets if their life depended on it, is going to beat me. Why? because of buckets. (one of the reasons I quit bar box league) I mean this table is so easy that if the opponents balls are out of the way I don't even have to think about what order I'm going to shoot them in. Just pick one and go, leaving the black one for last. When you get down to 3 you might make sure your going to have an easy shot on the 8. Once last night my buddy said to me after a run out, 'why didn't you shoot the ? ball instead of the ? ball, it would have made the rest of it easier?' My answer was, because I would have had to walk around the table to shoot that shot next. It just didn't matter. On that particular table I could have had the opponent tell me which shots I had to shoot next and he still wouldn't have got another shot. (maybe a slight exaggeration) I had broke without making a ball, he made I think 4 or 5 of his before he missed and everything was open for me. You combine that with big pockets. With these pockets it was like playing horseshoes, you only needed to be close. Believe me, I'm not bragging about my playing here, they were just that big.
Anyway, that is what I was talking about above when I said 'snapping them all in the pockets.' You give a pro a 5 and 1/8 inch pocket and he doesn't even have to be concerned if the ball is going into the whole. You make the pocket 4 and 3/4 inches and the pros aren't going to be walking up to the shots without making sure it is going in the whole. It doesn't take much.
Another issue....You can make the pockets to small to be able to get a rhythm going. You make the pockets only 4.5 inches and the shot clock must at least be increased to 45 seconds. You make the pockets 4 inches and the shot clock must be eliminated all together.
That's all my thoughts at the moment.
Later
There is a standard for pocket size and I'm not going to look it up right now. I'll just say it is more generous than what you folks are saying you want.
However the thread is about what size should be used in pro events. I'm not sure what size it would be. I'm going to mention a size below here but I'm not positive it is the size I'm going to describe, so if I say it wrong just tell me what size I'm really talking about, I think I can describe it. Pockets for pro events should be big enough that there is a minimal margin of error on hard hit down the rail shots. Seems to me this has as much to do with if not more to do with how deep the drop off is in the pockets. When I say 'minimal margin of error' I do mean very minimal. If there is no margin for error and requires the shot to be perfect, it eliminates the shot. The general rule, 'if the safety is equally difficult or more difficult than the shot, take the shot'. If you take away at least a very minimal margin of error you increase the number of safeties significantly.
So here is the problem as I see it. If you make the pockets big enough to give this small margin of error on down the rail shots, then the pockets are so big that normal (not down the rail or hit slowly down the rail) are to easy. My solution is make the pockets small enough to make the normal shot not automatic and make the depth of the pocket drop off shallow enough to give a slight margin of error on hard hit rail shots. I think I talking about just slightly smaller and slightly less deep than the standard GC4.
First off, one easy thing to figure out is the absolute minimum size. What is the smallest size that should be considered? Aren't the balls 2 and 1/4 inches in diameter? I think they are so there is your absolute minimum. 4 and 1/2 inches. Two balls wide is the absolute minimum. A shot past another ball sitting to the side but in the pocket should be difficult but possible to make. So that is what I think would be the absolute minimum, two balls wide, 4.5 inches. We are talking pool here, not snooker.
Second, what is the maximum? The size of Texas? na I don't think this matters much cause were are not really talking about that but for the purpose of this let's say 5 inches. I think that was the largest of the choices above anyway. What we are trying to discuss is, for the pros, how close to the absolute minimum do you want to go?
I would say just slightly above the minimum say 4 and 5/8 to 4 and 3/4 inches. That would keep it small enough to make sure the pros aren't just snapping them all in the pockets.
What do I mean by snapping them all in the pockets? The answer to that is probably why this is prominent on my mind this morning. Yesterday I emailed my friend to say, 'are we still on for going to the pool hall after work?' His reply was, 'I forgot to put my sticks in the car. Lets go to the VFW instead, that way I can stop at the house on the way and get my sticks.' So now instead of us going to the pool hall and getting some good practice, we are going to the VFW to deal with putting quarters up. When I get to my turn to play I put my quarters in and keep the table for about 11 or 12 games, don't remember for sure. So what is it that I don't like about this? I know it is coming. Some player that couldn't run 7 wide open balls and then the 8 ball on a 9 footer with good pockets if their life depended on it, is going to beat me. Why? because of buckets. (one of the reasons I quit bar box league) I mean this table is so easy that if the opponents balls are out of the way I don't even have to think about what order I'm going to shoot them in. Just pick one and go, leaving the black one for last. When you get down to 3 you might make sure your going to have an easy shot on the 8. Once last night my buddy said to me after a run out, 'why didn't you shoot the ? ball instead of the ? ball, it would have made the rest of it easier?' My answer was, because I would have had to walk around the table to shoot that shot next. It just didn't matter. On that particular table I could have had the opponent tell me which shots I had to shoot next and he still wouldn't have got another shot. (maybe a slight exaggeration) I had broke without making a ball, he made I think 4 or 5 of his before he missed and everything was open for me. You combine that with big pockets. With these pockets it was like playing horseshoes, you only needed to be close. Believe me, I'm not bragging about my playing here, they were just that big.
Anyway, that is what I was talking about above when I said 'snapping them all in the pockets.' You give a pro a 5 and 1/8 inch pocket and he doesn't even have to be concerned if the ball is going into the whole. You make the pocket 4 and 3/4 inches and the pros aren't going to be walking up to the shots without making sure it is going in the whole. It doesn't take much.
Another issue....You can make the pockets to small to be able to get a rhythm going. You make the pockets only 4.5 inches and the shot clock must at least be increased to 45 seconds. You make the pockets 4 inches and the shot clock must be eliminated all together.
That's all my thoughts at the moment.
Later
I have found that tightening the pockets usually makes rail shots easier. A wide pocket gold crown will spit out balls that touch the rail on the way in or balls hitting the opposite pocket facing just inside the point. Shimmed pockets won't usually hang up the same way because the rail extends into the pocket opening effectively making the slate drop off quicker.CaptainJR said:
At CJ's in Dallas, where Earl ran 11 racks, I shot a combo on a ball hanging in the pocket. Both balls hung in the pocket. I was playing Nick Varner and he was left with the cueball about 8 inches out in front of the pocket with both balls stuck evenly in the jaws. He looked at the shot for 5 minutes, because he didn't like it at all. He finally slammed it with low english. The two object balls and the cueball flew straight back at him around the table, and he scratched.
Earl obviously had no problem running out on these tables.
My pockets are all 4" on the outside (two balls will not go in together at all) with near parallel facings and play great. There are very few hangups, most missed balls miss the pocket entirely and bank around the table.
unknownpro
Gerry said:4.5 is perfect on a Gold Crown, or Diamond IMHO smaller is ok for 1-pocket, but to play 9-ball or 14.1 it gets to be too tight. Instead of making the play enjoyable to watch I think it gets to be too tenative. I'd like to see 100 ball runs and multiple racks of 9-ball. I hate watching balls rattle and spit out, unless it's my opponent and my game ball is hanging!
Keep in mind this tour is 8-ball, not 9-ball.
I am really hoping to see the more chess aspects of 8-ball and not a runout/break contest that mimicks the current 9-ball scene.
Celtic said:
Maybe I should have said "any" game.
Anyway, maybe we need to change the way we measure pockets because when I go to a new pool room I usually don't have a tape measure
, I take 2 balls and check to see if they go in the pocket side by side. So maybe the pocket size should be:2balls go
2balls nogo
or something like that.......Gerry