Is inside english harder for you to use?

M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like to spin balls into the hole with outside english. I have no problem aiming them, but have to think about my alignment when I use inside spin. I have a few different methods that work, but why is inside/reverse spin so much harder to use? Players even buy LD shafts to eliminate this problem.

I hear other people say they only use it when it's absolutely necessary. I use it a lot, but have to stop and think about it before I use it. I guess I could use it all the time and the uncertainty might disappear. Then again, maybe not. Everybody's different. Do you shy away from inside spin?

Best,
Mike
 
Outside english pulls the cueball off the object ball faster so it seems there is less contact. With inside spin, the cueball is grabbing for longer (at least it seems so) and holding on to the friction between them for longer.

I don't mind using inside, but it does seem a lot more compensation is needed. I see people miss balls using inside more than anything. Outside is helping english and inside is holding english.
 
What you are about to read is worth more than your cue weight in gold...

Outside is self correcting. There is a much bigger effective margin of error.

Inside does not self correct with slight cb mishits; neither does centerball.

It is also much more difficult to judge how the ball will cut as well, as it is not a natural spin that rolls off of the ob. Maybe the term "grabbing" english could be used. This is in addition to the above, ie, inside can be seen as more difficult for more than one reason. I will also add that outside you can hit the ball thicker. Since it is easier to "see" thick on an ob, this will many times make the shot easier, I especially notice this on thin cuts and banks.
 
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I ue it quite a bit have for a long time. It does cause the object ball to slip rather than gearing the ball with outside English. So my slower shots with inside english have to have greater composition for the slide that drags the object ball causing a shallower angle.

Try this, I like this inside english shot. Say your on a 9' and you have a full table shot, object ball 18 to 20 inches away from pocket 5 or 10 degree angle. Now if I shoot it with a bit of top at a normal speed I pocket the ball.
If I need some steam on the ball I'll aim at the same ghost ball with a bit of inside and just drill it. Its speed and friction the higher speed overcomes the friction that would result from a slower shot. Hope that makes sense.
 
It's a combination of 2 things....

We have a tendency to aim at the short side of the pocket when we cut balls... Our brain KNOWS where the center of the back of the pocket is so it homes in on it... Cutting a ball down a rail to the back of the center of the pocket means we will actually cut it into the rail...

Using outside english cutting a ball if we hit down slightly at all we are curving the cueball on the way to contact... When it gets there it actually overcuts the object ball.... we hit the far facing making it and we think we shot it perfectly....

On the same shot with inside english when we hit down on the ball it curves into the object ball undercutting it instead of overcutting it... Since we are already set up on the short side any undercutting at all will lead to a miss or jawed ball....

Watch your cueing angle on cuts like a hawk... If it's not level or you are not controlling it to be aware of it's effects, you are likely helping some shots and hurting others and you will build preferences... Like only using inside english when nothing else is available.........
 
I use it. I play a shot the way the layout and my strategy dictates. I don't think of one being harder than the other. They're just different. If you step up to a shot that calls for inside english and think "oh boy, this inside english is difficult", you're already setting yourself up for failure. Look at the shot, see the shot, picture the shot in your mind, play the shot. Rinse and repeat.
 
Keith McK said that shooting with inside english was a great tool that he mastered.

I like inside english for you can aim at the contact point on the OB with the differing amount of shift from center on the CB for the different distances between the CB and OB - this differs depending on amount of squirt of your shaft.
 
LAMas said:
Keith McK said that shooting with inside english was a great tool that he mastered.

I like inside english for you can aim at the contact point on the OB with the differing amount of shift from center on the CB for the different distances between the CB and OB - this differs depending on amount of squirt of your shaft.
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I have heard many great players say that if you learn to use inside english, it will improve your game and is a very effective tool. So, KM would definitely be one to listen to on this.
 
I thought I was the only one who didn't like using inside english and only did it if absolutely necessary for specific position. :embarrassed2:
 
Hi MIkjary :)

"your problem" (let s call it so^^) is heard often. Most of the ppl and students i know feel similar like you. In my opinion it s perhaps a bit easier to use outside-english-often it s described also as *helping english*. To compensate throw-effect etc. - Sigel and Rempe for example explained it the same way when i met them in germany at the worlds in the 90 s. I think especially Mike is using on cutshots almost all the time kind of helping english. Furthermore if the objectball is nearer to the rail outside english helps it also a bit, if you re touching the rails (instead to pocket it dead-center-pocket).

Like always- practice-practice-practice is the key. Especially if it s about hittin cueball not *dead-center*. You have to learn how YOUR stroke works with using english.

lg
Ingo
 
I feel comfortable using indside english when the ball is close to the pocket or on thin cuts when the ball is frozen or close to being frozen on the rail.

Other than that I don't use it unless absolutely needed. I would rather take a longer shot or tougher cut than risk missing the ball.
 
Mikjary said:
I like to spin balls into the hole with outside english. I have no problem aiming them, but have to think about my alignment when I use inside spin. I have a few different methods that work, but why is inside/reverse spin so much harder to use? Players even buy LD shafts to eliminate this problem.

I hear other people say they only use it when it's absolutely necessary. I use it a lot, but have to stop and think about it before I use it. I guess I could use it all the time and the uncertainty might disappear. Then again, maybe not. Everybody's different. Do you shy away from inside spin?

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike:

Strangely enough, I'm the opposite -- I'm more comfortable with inside english, "pinching" the object ball and holding the cue ball, than I am with outside english. If that even makes sense? (I ask, because even *I* think it's strange, when outside english is what a lot of folks call "helping english" after all.)

But when I get on the table and am confronted with a shot that I know will have good results with inside english, I just get down and shoot it -- no deliberation whatsoever. After a lot of thinking about the "why," I've come up with the conclusion that it's because all the effects of deflection, swerve, and throw are ingrained into my subconscious. (And you might recall that I'm a big proponent of leveraging that supercomputer we all have -- I even wrote an article about it that seems to have been well-received.)

This comfortability with inside english came after hitting thousands of those shots and watching the results very carefully, saying nothing, but just digesting the "experience" of the shot. After a while of doing this one day, a veritable light bulb came on in my head, and I just "got" it. After that illuminating day, inside english shots are, well, forgive the play on words, "inside" of me -- that is to say, I've internalized them.

Mike, do you remember that thread that JoeyA created, where he was at DCC, and during a break in one of Efren's matches, Joey got a chance to try Efren's cue using one of Joey's own "pet" shots that he set up, and was shocked at how high deflection that cue was? When I read that, I instantly knew the other side of the story -- why Efren shoots with a cue like that (i.e. standard maple shaft, and he abhors low deflection shafts). I knew that Efren has "internalized" all the effects of deflection, swerve, and throw to the point where he doesn't think -- he just executes. All of his setup, aiming, and execution have all these calculations and adjustments "built in" from the get-go, without ever consciously thinking about them.

And this is where I think a lot of us get it wrong. We're over-analyzing ourselves, the shot, the table, everything. In our quest to not make a mistake, we actually analyze our way out of success. And yet, the very tool we're equipped with to make that shot "automatic," we end-run and short-circuit it. Paralysis through analysis in its classic form.

I'm not knocking the use of aiming systems, et al., but at some point, we have to let go of that stuff. Those systems are good when you're learning the game or if you're uncomfortable with a particular shot, but not for the entire rack or [worse yet] your entire pool session that evening. You have to take the training wheels off the bike sooner or later and just ride! Ride from muscle memories and subconscious. And that's where one's game really comes from.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
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If I took a poll of the responses, it would show what I suspected before I started the thread. After years of playing, most players are either gun shy of using inside spin or make a conscious adjustment for it. They don't get down on the shot and naturally spin it in. They have to think about it.

When I look at a shot and decide to use inside spin, my brain throws the switch and it knows where to aim. I notice it because I use inside less and have to look at the shot differently. Some position routes require inside english. You just have to have it in your shot bag.

I use a regular maple shaft with a lot of deflection. When I have to bring it, I cue closer to center and shorten my bridge. With a loose grip and a "digging" stroke (shorter backswing and longer finish), I get the cue ball to swerve and the inside spin is easier to control.

Another mind trick with inside is I use object ball aiming instead of aiming to a contact point. If I cut a ball to the left with inside spin (left english), I aim the object ball an inch or so off the center of the pocket to the right side, depending on spin/speed. This allows my mind to get into the shot more rather than consciously aiming at a contact point and thinking about compensating for the squirt on the cue ball. I allow my brain to do the compensating behind the scenes. I don't think about it, IOW.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
I like to spin balls into the hole with outside english. I have no problem aiming them, but have to think about my alignment when I use inside spin. I have a few different methods that work, but why is inside/reverse spin so much harder to use? Players even buy LD shafts to eliminate this problem.

I hear other people say they only use it when it's absolutely necessary. I use it a lot, but have to stop and think about it before I use it. I guess I could use it all the time and the uncertainty might disappear. Then again, maybe not. Everybody's different. Do you shy away from inside spin?

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

NO.

Since learning to aim the way I now do and learning to use Backhand English all spin application is exactly the same for me.

Before when I used to use ghost ball - FORGET ABOUT IT. Inside english was a NIGHTMARE and low percentage. Now it's so easy I don't even think about it.

And it's an important weapon. I see my opponents loading up inside spin and missing the shot badly and smirk inwardly thinking about my own failures attempting similar shots. Now, using BHE, it's like I have at least a ball's worth of advantage on any shot requiring inside when I play someone who is close to my speed.
 
JB Cases said:
NO.

Since learning to aim the way I now do and learning to use Backhand English all spin application is exactly the same for me.

Before when I used to use ghost ball - FORGET ABOUT IT. Inside english was a NIGHTMARE and low percentage. Now it's so easy I don't even think about it.

And it's an important weapon. I see my opponents loading up inside spin and missing the shot badly and smirk inwardly thinking about my own failures attempting similar shots. Now, using BHE, it's like I have at least a ball's worth of advantage on any shot requiring inside when I play someone who is close to my speed.
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BHE is only is only consistent at different speeds if you do not hit down on the cue ball... But in essence John is correct that a pivot system can compensate. How you get the aim point for center is personal preference but once that is locked in if you are bridging on the shafts actual pivot point you can use either flavor of sidespin without much thought........
 
The Renfro said:
BHE is only is only consistent at different speeds if you do not hit down on the cue ball... But in essence John is correct that a pivot system can compensate. How you get the aim point for center is personal preference but once that is locked in if you are bridging on the shafts actual pivot point you can use either flavor of sidespin without much thought........
Click to expand...

Actually you don't have to be at the pivot point to use BHE. Here is a YouTube video where I demonstrate that one can make the ball using BHE from different bridge lengths. Some very close to the ball and some with my bridge almost at the joint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrpN3V15fY

I find that using BHE with different bridge lengths is a feel thing. You can adjust the hit on the ball and even use less spin and more speed or any combination of speed/spin that works. Once I got the hang of it I found that I can use BHE with just about any bridge length or bridge position. I don't think about it now, I just do it no matter what bridge length I am using.

In fact, I don't even know the pivot point on any of my cues.

I do agree that if one does know the pivot point then one can apply BHE perfectly to make the cue ball spin in place. But on the table it's just not practical to be able to bridge at the pivot point for every shot.
 
I believe the main difference between using inside and outside spin is familiarity. We naturally use outside spin more because (1) the places we want the CB to go are more often in the outside spin direction (because we're usually shooting into a corner) and (2) we can usually hit more softly with outside to move the CB the same distance (because the natural carom angle is usually in the outside spin direction).

This built-in preference for outside spin reinforces false feelings like the "helping english" and "self correcting" myths. In fact, since throw tends to correct for squirt but throw is reduced with outside spin, you have to adjust your aim more with outside than with inside, and a shot with "gearing" english is more sensitive to small spin errors.

pj
chgo
 
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I think it's a combination of a perception problem and familiarity problem. More often than not, it's easier to envision the path of the cb with outside sidespin. However, it's not so easy often times with inside, especially when inside goes against the natural angle of the shot.

The other issue is familiarity. The more you use it, the more familiar with it you will become.
 
Inside english magnifies collision induced throw. If the object ball is hit where the ghost ball would normally be, the increased throw will push the object ball short of the pocket. Dirty balls are even worse.

Inside is much more difficult to master but worth the effort.
 
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