Is the IPT Game (8 Ball ) part of the Problem ?

[Bigbro66]

As an Australian who plays the English style rules but follows all cuesports, i watch a lot of UK style 8 ball, 9ball and Snooker.

Now this forum seems to be quite rightly focusing on the politics and the pay dramas of the IPT.

But analyzing the actual game the IPT chose to market, 8 Ball with US rules on a modified table, was this part of the problem ?

How appealing is this version of the game to pool players ?

How appealing is this version of the game to the general public ?

Personally i found the balls (the solids and stripes) to be very hard to follow on the tv screen. You just couldn't look at the table on tv and see which was which. Now not all may know, the uk 8 ball game is played with 7 yellow balls, 7 red balls and 1 black. None of them numbers. Now i know the US rules game is call shot so the numbers are important, so i think the IPT should have used balls more TV friendly. They could have had two sets of colors (not necessarily red and yellow) but numbered.

 

[TheOne]

As an Australian who plays the English style rules but follows all cuesports, i watch a lot of UK style 8 ball, 9ball and Snooker.

Now this forum seems to be quite rightly focusing on the politics and the pay dramas of the IPT.

But analyzing the actual game the IPT chose to market, 8 Ball with US rules on a modified table, was this part of the problem ?

How appealing is this version of the game to pool players ?

How appealing is this version of the game to the general public ?

Personally i found the balls (the solids and stripes) to be very hard to follow on the tv screen. You just couldn't look at the table on tv and see which was which. Now not all may know, the uk 8 ball game is played with 7 yellow balls, 7 red balls and 1 black. None of them numbers. Now i know the US rules game is call shot so the numbers are important, so i think the IPT should have used balls more TV friendly. They could have had two sets of colors (not necessarily red and yellow) but numbered.

The game is perfect, the table is perfect, the choice of balls SUCK and are terrible for TV!

The problem is the Americans are unfamiliar with the benifits of reds and yellows. There was nothing stopping them putting numbers on the balls like they do with the solids, but having TWO distinct colors such as red and yellow would have been FANTASTIC for TV. I have heard several IPT players say this also.

 

[memikey]

.....But analyzing the actual game the IPT chose to market, 8 Ball with US rules on a modified table, was this part of the problem ?

No......the enduring negative image of pool is the main problem together with a grossly distorted and generally unrealistic perception amongst the pool playing community (a) as regards just how boring a specator sport pool is to non pool enthusiasts (b) as regards how relatively small the worldwide interest in pool actually is

How appealing is this version of the game to pool players ?

Under the circumstances in which it evolved it's probably not any more or any less appealing to pool players than 9 ball or straight pool.For the kind of money allegedly on offer most pool players would have sold their own grandmother to the glue factory before they would whinge about the chosen game/rules

How appealing is this version of the game to the general public ?....

Like all pool it has negligible interest as a spectator sport even to regular pool players and virtually zero interest to non pool players.

Sorry if that all appears a bit negative but that's the reality.Pool will never have any significant appeal as a spectator sport.Even highly enthusiastic committed pool players knocked out of sizeable tournaments don't usually hang around to watch the latter stages.What on earth makes anyone think that the general public would want to watch it?

 

[TheOne]

Sorry if that all appears a bit negative but that's the reality.Pool will never have any significant appeal as a spectator sport.Even highly enthusiastic committed pool players knocked out of sizeable tournaments don't usually hang around to watch the latter stages.What on earth makes anyone think that the general public would want to watch it?

Agghhh why do people keep ignoring the facts and saying this! Pool/snooker is HUGE in Asia, Europe, and the UK!

I just don't get why people keep saying this, its usually Americans but I notice you're from the UAE?

 

[memikey]

Agghhh why do people keep ignoring the facts and saying this! Pool/snooker is HUGE in Asia, Europe, and the UK!

I just don't get why people keep saying this, its usually Americans but I notice you're from the UAE?

Aaaarrrrggghh !! Yet another committed pool player with rose coloured spectacles and a distorted perception due to his love of the game

Firstly,yes I live in UAE,which as you know of course is in Asia and is the home venue of The WPA World 8 Ball Championship.Secondly I'm British,still play occasionally (although pretty badly nowadays) in UK tour events,both small table and American table and have played and sponsored others in IPT qualifying events in Asia and elsewhere.Thirdly I was playing competitive pool around the earliest of UK Open competition circuits (ie with Ross etc in his earliest days) possibly before you finished school and have only rekindled an interest in recent years.........so actually,although given what I have described there is always the danger of Alzheimers clouding my judgement,it's probably fair to say that I have had a good opportunity to garner as circumspect a historical,current and international perspective on pool as it is reasonably possible for an 'ordinary bloke who loves pool' to have.That in itself doesn't mean I am any more likely to be right than you of course,I'm often wrong.......but alas everything screams out to me that nothing has essentially changed relative to other sports and pastimes (can't really buy into the notion of pool as a 'sport' myself much as I love it).

It is not accurate to say that pool is "huge" in Asia.In general in Asia it is a minority sport which is nowhere near the top ten,even in China (perhaps site users Gadawg or Colin Colenso who live there will pop in to confirm that comment).In the majority of countries in Asia it is even smaller than that.The possible exceptions are of course The Phillipines and Taiwan but even there it is far from being any kind of a mega bucks industry in a pool playing sense though there is very good business for pool rooms and for table and equipment manufacturers etc.

As regards elsewhere,to say that pool is "huge" in Europe or UK relative to other sports or pastimes is much more inaccurate than your perception of its popularity in Asia.In Uk in particular pool is seen as a seedy little minority pub game with whose negative and downmarket image the majority of potential sponsoring companies wouldn't want to be associated under any circumstances.That is why the few sponsors and advertisers etc which exist are either gambling related or cue sport equipment related.

Organisationally in Uk pool is an unmitigated shambles with umpteen different purported governing bodies and at least 3 distinct sets of different rules the followers of each of which appear paranoic at times over the most trivial of issues around the general subject of which rule code and governing body is the best.Prize money is a joke and the occasional television coverage only serves to make the small table game look even more like "pretend snooker for the less talented played on dinky toy tables".Pool clubs regularly go bankrupt.The fact that the small table game has managed to spawn some outstanding cue sports talent,as now being witnessed in IPT and elsewhere,is all the more surprising and creditable to the players concerned.You will note however that the purportedly "huge" sport cannot keep these talented players.

Don't misunderstand my comments to be blind criticism or dislike of the game.Frankly I wish that I didn't love the game so much cos then I wouldn't care enough to give these issues the necessary thought.......but loving it and wishing it were "huge" is one thing,the reality is quite another

Never mind.......got a debut appearance as an amateur qualifier in The European PGA Seniors Tour coming up next month and maybe 20 years from now I'll instead be sounding off equally annoyingly and incoherently about golf instead ,now there's a "huge" sport

 

[Snapshot9]

From what I have seen ...

Snooker is on the decline in Europe. That's why a few of the snooker players are interested in the IPT. Souinds like there are not very many
torunaments there THAT PAY ANYTHING on a regular basis, even National
tournaments (Belgium anyway) other than the biggest Snooker tournaments. We have more weekly tournaments in Wichita than whole countries do over there, and more Pool rooms too.
And there is a heck of a lot more gambling going on over here, which keeps things interesting when the big tournaments are not being played.
What does Europe have that can even come halfway close to DCC.

We are not going to conform to European standards for Play!!! Didn't you guys get the message when the Boston Tea Party went down?

Personally, I think you need to put some numbers on your snooker balls.... lol Personally, playing snooker is like screwing a different 5'5" blonde every week without ever knowing their names. After awhile, it justs gets boring. There is nothing wrong with American 8 ball. It is very easy to relate to, explain to John Doe, and is played worldwide already in Amateur leagues, as evidenced in the International tournaments held in Vegas every year. It is much easier to commentate also if you can actually distinguish each individual ball on the table by a number.

I also think the top level pro play should go down to 4" pockets. Something that would identifiably seperate the pros from non-pros.
The problem with Pool here in the USA is that there is not a ladder of levels really that distinguish it as a sport, not just a game. The semi-pro level needs national definition, their own tournaments (barring real pros) with higher payouts for that level. We need Pool in the Olympics. We need Pool in more youth programs and colleges. For something to succeed, it needs structure. Pool's structure over here is haphazard at best with many blurry lines that get crossed.

I am so upset that our city and state will not vote to let a Casino go in here because they host many good Pool tournaments as a side venture, and we had people wanting to put a Casino in here, about a $225 million dollar venue.

 

[Island Drive]

As an Australian who plays the English style rules but follows all cuesports, i watch a lot of UK style 8 ball, 9ball and Snooker.

Now this forum seems to be quite rightly focusing on the politics and the pay dramas of the IPT.

But analyzing the actual game the IPT chose to market, 8 Ball with US rules on a modified table, was this part of the problem ?

How appealing is this version of the game to pool players ?

How appealing is this version of the game to the general public ?

Personally i found the balls (the solids and stripes) to be very hard to follow on the tv screen. You just couldn't look at the table on tv and see which was which. Now not all may know, the uk 8 ball game is played with 7 yellow balls, 7 red balls and 1 black. None of them numbers. Now i know the US rules game is call shot so the numbers are important, so i think the IPT should have used balls more TV friendly. They could have had two sets of colors (not necessarily red and yellow) but numbered.

8- Ball is not the problem, not here in the states but elsewhere, don't know could very well be. If Ho gets ahold of the game, I would not be surprised if it goes back to nine ball, thats played allot overseas, CW likes it over there that should be a hint. I think the game of 9-ball is well recognized over there and its a game that can be won by someone under 20 years old and also by someone over 50. Those aspects carry a unique value in a sport along with great shot making.

 

[TheOne]

Aaaarrrrggghh !! Yet another committed pool player with rose coloured spectacles and a distorted perception due to his love of the game

Firstly,yes I live in UAE,which as you know of course is in Asia and is the home venue of The WPA World 8 Ball Championship.Secondly I'm British,still play occasionally (although pretty badly nowadays) in UK tour events,both small table and American table and have played and sponsored others in IPT qualifying events in Asia and elsewhere.Thirdly I was playing competitive pool around the earliest of UK Open competition circuits (ie with Ross etc in his earliest days) possibly before you finished school and have only rekindled an interest in recent years.........so actually,although given what I have described there is always the danger of Alzheimers clouding my judgement,it's probably fair to say that I have had a good opportunity to garner as circumspect a historical,current and international perspective on pool as it is reasonably possible for an 'ordinary bloke who loves pool' to have.That in itself doesn't mean I am any more likely to be right than you of course,I'm often wrong.......but alas everything screams out to me that nothing has essentially changed relative to other sports and pastimes (can't really buy into the notion of pool as a 'sport' myself much as I love it).

It is not accurate to say that pool is "huge" in Asia.In general in Asia it is a minority sport which is nowhere near the top ten,even in China (perhaps site users Gadawg or Colin Colenso who live there will pop in to confirm that comment).In the majority of countries in Asia it is even smaller than that.The possible exceptions are of course The Phillipines and Taiwan but even there it is far from being any kind of a mega bucks industry in a pool playing sense though there is very good business for pool rooms and for table and equipment manufacturers etc.

As regards elsewhere,to say that pool is "huge" in Europe or UK relative to other sports or pastimes is much more inaccurate than your perception of its popularity in Asia.In Uk in particular pool is seen as a seedy little minority pub game with whose negative and downmarket image the majority of potential sponsoring companies wouldn't want to be associated under any circumstances.That is why the few sponsors and advertisers etc which exist are either gambling related or cue sport equipment related.

Organisationally in Uk pool is an unmitigated shambles with umpteen different purported governing bodies and at least 3 distinct sets of different rules the followers of each of which appear paranoic at times over the most trivial of issues around the general subject of which rule code and governing body is the best.Prize money is a joke and the occasional television coverage only serves to make the small table game look even more like "pretend snooker for the less talented played on dinky toy tables".Pool clubs regularly go bankrupt.The fact that the small table game has managed to spawn some outstanding cue sports talent,as now being witnessed in IPT and elsewhere,is all the more surprising and creditable to the players concerned.You will note however that the purportedly "huge" sport cannot keep these talented players.

Don't misunderstand my comments to be blind criticism or dislike of the game.Frankly I wish that I didn't love the game so much cos then I wouldn't care enough to give these issues the necessary thought.......but loving it and wishing it were "huge" is one thing,the reality is quite another

Never mind.......got a debut appearance as an amateur qualifier in The European PGA Seniors Tour coming up next month and maybe 20 years from now I'll instead be sounding off equally annoyingly and incoherently about golf instead ,now there's a "huge" sport

No worries mate, I had a feeling you was British as theres a poster on pro9 I think from Dubai (btw a place I love, agh jumeriah beach and the Burj Al Arab!!).

I've debated this a few times but you'll note I say snooker/pool. When you break them down they're a couple of guys/girls banging balls around on a table with 6 pockets. Therefore comparable and absoloutly no reason why if marketed correctly they can't achieve the same measure of success.

You will therefore know that Snooker still holds one of the late night records on TV and 100 million watched Ding beat Hendry in China last year.
Snooker is also massive in Thailand where Wattana is prob one of the most recognized players. As is Efren and Busta in Phillipines and others in Taiwan. I'm not talking about pool lovers here either I'm talking about joe public, I would say 99% of every thai and filipino person Ive asked (hundreds btw) know these players. If you get Star sports you will also know that 9 ball is shown almost daily. Old women to Children watched snooker on TV in the UK and Europe and they've never played the game. I was also told that billiards beats golf in Europe in some Euro Sport ratings, unbelievable but true.

IF Snooker can attract these figures pool, if marketed correctly can too, there's little between the concept of the two games.

 

[shoutout33]

LOL! Man, you all are so funny!

I don't get it. Some of you are complaining, about why the IPT chose 8-ball, but the countries where some of you reside, are kicking our butts at it!!! Man, what else do they have to do?

 

[ceebee]

I don't mind the IPT having chose 8-Ball as a Standard of Play. 8-Ball can be a run-out game or a chess match, it depends a lot on the break shot & the player's ability. The game can become a chess match, if a player's ball or balls are tied up & the opponent is looking for a chance to get to the table & go for the win. 8-Ball can be challenging & the Pros are giving us a good show.

The Break Shot is very powerful in Professional 8-Ball. Employing the Open Break Shot & spreading the balls out across the playing field is genuine gambling. If you don't make a ball or scratch, you may have lost that game. If your opponent breaks & runs out a few racks, you get way behind real quick. 8-Ball at their level is a good game.

Using 2 different color balls is great, I have a set of red & yellows myself. Occasionally we play Short Rack 8-Ball (4 reds, 4 yellows & the 8-Ball) The game is racked like 9-Ball, but played like 8-Ball. The games go by like a picket fence at 60 MPH.

I think the IPT should have satellite Tournaments every week & include Pro-Ams into their format at the satellite tournaments. That will merge the specatators or audience into the picture. That would encourage more spectators to attend. The local media might be invited to cover the event.

Not incorporating the media into these events is like holding a tournament in a secret location. If American Pool & Billiards ever gets the media to covering the events, all of us will have more fun & we'll get to read about the event in the newspaper or magazines s or watch the matches on TV.

In the DFW area, there are app'x 4 million people. The football stand is made for 80,000 fans. That is a .02 percent ratio. People don't get to watch much more than the local Pro Game on TV. People that are interested in Pool, Bowling, Darts & other games are left out. I say if we ask for coverage by the media and the media's sponsors... it will happen.

There are millions of TV watchers, & there are 70 channels with a possible 48 different time slots. That should enable the schedules to provide for everyone, not just the football fans. But they will only provide what they are asked for.... As a group, we can get more attention...

When the IPT becomes supported by the fans, it will grow. The attendance was pitiful. Anyone looking to become a sponsor would be wary of investing thousands of dollars, on a format that less than 2 hundred people came to watch or a be a part of.

The IPT is a great idea... hopefully it will grow & expand it's format. Having a shadow show up so early is very disappointing to all, especially the Professional Players & the equipment manufacturers. The IPT could become a great marketplace for the Professionals & the trickle down to the instructors would be a great shot in the arm.

There was a time when NASCAR was not shown on TV, it wasn't in the magazines either. I was a great fan of perormance autos, but racing was like sex, it ain't a spectator sport. NASCAR came to be mainstream because the supporters & fans constantly badgered the media for coverage. NASCAR invented itself & it is a success for all.

We Pool Players can enjoy the same kind of limelight. Support the IPT if you can. If the IPT goes away, because of shame, support the next promoter of our chosen sport. Maybe the next format will be round robin play of 9-Ball, 8-Ball, One Pocket & Straight Pool. That format would surely give us all something to enjoy.