Is this legal?

pool4u

pool4u

Hola Paco
Silver Member
I played in a mixed scotch doubles tournament Saturday and a little controversy came up. I just wanted to get some feedback from the group if I could.

It's my partner's turn at the table, he looks at the shot he's going to take and then lines up the shot he wants me to take on the next ball.

Now, I realize EVERYBODY does this. But I also have to admit the very first time I played in one of these tournaments and my partner did this it made me uncomfortable. (I watched too much 'Jot the Dot' as a child.)

I can't imagine it would ever be ruled as illegal because it would be impossible to tell if lining up the shot was just to pinpoint the shape you want or telling your partner what to shoot.

There was no coaching allowed in this tournament by the way.

And the only reason I'm asking is because one of our opponents made a big production out of doing the same thing for his partner, rolled his eyes, and was just a jerk about it.

Thanks for any feedback I get from this.
 
The trick here is, what was the intent of the guy doing the shot-line-up. Was he intentionally trying to coach his partner? Or was he simply looking at the shot he wanted to leave his partner, in the sense of trying to determine where best to park the cue ball when his shot was done?

It's a sticky situation.

Perhaps in scotch doubles tournaments, the tournament directors should start supplying black sacks to each team, and instruct teams in their use - when your partner is up at the table, you put the sack over your head, to prevent any non-verbal coaching from reaching your eyeballs. :D
 
pool4u said:
I played in a mixed scotch doubles tournament Saturday and a little controversy came up. I just wanted to get some feedback from the group if I could.

It's my partner's turn at the table, he looks at the shot he's going to take and then lines up the shot he wants me to take on the next ball.

Now, I realize EVERYBODY does this. But I also have to admit the very first time I played in one of these tournaments and my partner did this it made me uncomfortable. (I watched too much 'Jot the Dot' as a child.)

I can't imagine it would ever be ruled as illegal because it would be impossible to tell if lining up the shot was just to pinpoint the shape you want or telling your partner what to shoot.

There was no coaching allowed in this tournament by the way.

And the only reason I'm asking is because one of our opponents made a big production out of doing the same thing for his partner, rolled his eyes, and was just a jerk about it.

Thanks for any feedback I get from this.
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If you didn't mark the table when looking at the shape you wanted for the next shot (accidentially leaving chalk from cue tip etc) then its legal.

I'd say the opponents were just bent because they weren't as concerned about looking after their partners interest in the next shot or hadn't thought of it first.

Did you win that race btw ?

.
 
Exactly. It would be impossible to prove intent on something like that.

The guy who was an ass about it happens to be my old scotch doubles partner. We won a few tournaments together. Maybe he was just jealous. :)

Bwah ha ha!
 
If there is a way to cheat and still be within the rules, then the rules are poorly writen IMHO.

Even if the person doing the mock setup isn't trying to clue in his partner as to what he wants him to do, it's very likey that the partner will take it as a cue.
 
MinoInADixeCup said:
If there is a way to cheat and still be within the rules, then the rules are poorly written IMHO.
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Are there any Scotch Doubles players here who have been to Vegas and have seen this come up?

Is there any decisive/realistic/enforceable ruling out there for BCA or Valley or APA or anything?
 
it still depends on the partner's ability to end up with the shot. no matter how you try to coach someone, if you can't make that ball and the position you are intending where it should be, it's pretty useless. so, I say it is LEGAL !
 
Hail Mary Shot said:
it still depends on the partner's ability to end up with the shot. no matter how you try to coach someone, if you can't make that ball and the position you are intending where it should be, it's pretty useless. so, I say it is LEGAL !
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Very true. And on another topic, I have to say I really like it when my partner leaves me with only once choice of a shot. :) Takes all the guesswork out of it. "What does he want me to do here?" thinking.

Which brings up a whole bunch of other interesting things with scotch doubles.

Why do some guys (not MY partner) think it's beneficial to tell their partner what they did wrong? For I'd say 80% of women (including me), that just makes them start second guessing every shot which is not a good thing.

It was funny to hear guys complain about their partner missing after they were missing every other shot trying to get perfect shape. Hilarious.

I have an email out to Mark Griffin about the initial topic. I'll let everyone know if I get a response.
 
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pool4u said:
Are there any Scotch Doubles players here who have been to Vegas and have seen this come up?

Is there any decisive/realistic/enforceable ruling out there for BCA or Valley or APA or anything?
Click to expand...


Everything is still legal.

When the SD Rules were written, that very thing was discussed. We bounced it back and forth and realized that it was part of the game. Most players line up their next shot automaticaly, so this action may be very normal and is not unusual nor is it cheating. The other thought is that the incoming player doesn't have to shoot that shot anyway.........randyg (father of the original SD Rules)
 
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Randy Is Right

randyg said:
Everything is still legal.

When the SD Rules were written, that very thing was discussed. We bounced it back and forth and realized that it was part of the game. Most players line up their next shot automaticaly, so this action may be very normal and is not unusual nor is it cheating. The other though is that the incoming player doesn't have to shoot that shot anyway.........randyg (father of the original SD Rules)
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I've been called to tables on this very situation and besides the difficulty of proving someone is coaching....it all goes out the window the 1st time the next shooter takes a different shot.

It's even harder than proving someone is marking the table with chalk placement along a rail.
 
It is legal to line up the "possible" next shot if your partner does it prior to taking his own shot.

Bill Stock
BCAPL
Director of Referees
Rules Administrator
 
pool4u said:
Very true. And on another topic, I have to say I really like it when my partner leaves me with only once choice of a shot. :) Takes all the guesswork out of it. "What does he want me to do here?" thinking.

Which brings up a whole bunch of other interesting things with scotch doubles.

Why do some guys (not MY partner) think it's beneficial to tell their partner what they did wrong? For I'd say 80% of women (including me), that just makes them start second guessing every shot which is not a good thing.

It was funny to hear guys complain about their partner missing after they were missing every other shot trying to get perfect shape. Hilarious.

I have an email out to Mark Griffin about the initial topic. I'll let everyone know if I get a response.
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it's part of the learning process. beginners (regardless of sex) need to be aware of their mistakes as to avoid committing the same mistakes over and over again. consider it as a privilege to get a headstart among bangers. it doesn't hurt to know more.

I had taught and seen players improve their game because of this process. one thing is the realization of the mistake committed. I would watch a student shoot a particular shot which is ill-advisable, then later said to himself that he made the wrong type of shot, which is the same I had in mind before he took the shot. therefore, what I had in mind came as his own. a simple banger would not think after committing that error (thus, a repetition of errors). so that's the advantage of having someone reminding you the don'ts. it's not second guessing, but it gives you one of the basic fundamentals of pool. to look over the whole table layout and open yourself for easier options rather than taking ill-advised shots. ;)
 
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Hail Mary Shot said:
it's part of the learning process. beginners (regardless of sex) need to be aware of their mistakes as to avoid committing the same mistakes over and over again. consider it as a privilege to get a headstart among bangers. it doesn't hurt to know more.
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I agree to this philosophy during a training/practice session, but not during a tournament. I wish I could remember where I saw this, but one big no-no for yourself during any kind of competition is making any judgment whatsoever about how you're playing. Just play. Don't judge. That's what practice and training are for.

Anyone else see this written somewhere?
 
Bill S said:
It is legal to line up the "possible" next shot if your partner does it prior to taking his own shot.

Bill Stock
BCAPL
Director of Referees
Rules Administrator
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Well THAT'S pretty definitive. :)

Thank you, Bill.

And I'll see you in Vegas next year. Missed the last 5 years. Never again.
 
Mixed Scotch

Bill S said:
It is legal to line up the "possible" next shot if your partner does it prior to taking his own shot.

Bill Stock
BCAPL
Director of Referees
Rules Administrator
Click to expand...

So then I assume that in the case of Mixed Scotch, and the stronger of the two players (more often than not it's the male) is putting his cue tip down and indicating where he wants the cue ball and then lines up from that spot as if he is shooting the shot after his to see if it's in the right spot.......if the weaker player just comes up and shoots that shot, this could be considered coaching?
 
randyg said:
Everything is still legal.

When the SD Rules were written, that very thing was discussed. We bounced it back and forth and realized that it was part of the game. Most players line up their next shot automaticaly, so this action may be very normal and is not unusual nor is it cheating. The other thought is that the incoming player doesn't have to shoot that shot anyway.........randyg (father of the original SD Rules)
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Why can't partners talk to each other? Spectators (who???:cool: ) would get a kick out of hearing their plans and how they do executing those. Especially when top players are talking.

I've never understood the "no talking" rule...is it to save time or what?

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Why can't partners talk to each other? Spectators (who???:cool: ) would get a kick out of hearing their plans and how they do executing those. Especially when top players are talking.
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Interesting concept. I'll bounce that off the guys that run the tournaments and see what they say.

I could see it being a time issue. There was a match Saturday that went over 2 1/2 hours. Race to 5. And that's with ZERO coaching allowed.

I could see in some instances where if you had constant coaching it could possibly speed things up, but overall I bet it would slow things down.

And this tournament lasted until 5:35 am Sunday morning. :)

What else you gonna do? Sleep?
 
ne14tennis said:
So then I assume that in the case of Mixed Scotch, and the stronger of the two players (more often than not it's the male) is putting his cue tip down and indicating where he wants the cue ball and then lines up from that spot as if he is shooting the shot after his to see if it's in the right spot.......if the weaker player just comes up and shoots that shot, this could be considered coaching?
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My understanding is you can line up the next shot BEFORE you shoot your shot. But if you shoot your shot AND THEN go line something up, that's coaching.
 
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