Ivor-X ferrules

[bandido]

If indeed Jackson actually knows and "builds" his own cues then I apologize for the above thread.

Again I apologize if you guys say so. If he does build them, I don't see any problem labelling him a cuemaker...

((VH)) already put an end to his reference to the name. And so doing, all responses should just focus on the general sentiment or just ruturn to the topic of this thread.

Anyway, I just talked to Bustamante the other night and he said that he is definitely using his Ivor-X ferruled shaft for the WPC. How about that for an endorsement of the Ivor-X ferrule!

 

[Jon]

I mean no disrespect to any and all people on this thread at this moment, but...
What does this have to do with Ivor-x ferrules?

Thanks,

Jon

 

[Buddha Jones]

Man, I should have started to read this post earlier. I just couldn't believe that we needed 3 pages to discuss a ferrule. I also have a cue being built by Viattorre custom cues. Jack runs his shop as a process with people doing specific things. If it was Jack all alone, it would prob be called Jack's cues, but it isn't so I wouldn't expect him to do it by himself. Just like South East cues are run by, can't remember his name, but he isn't the only one in the shop. Wether he makes the cues 100% or not, the reputation of the Viattore cues precedes itself. I have NEVER heard of anyone picking up a Viattorre cue and say they didn't like how it hit. And I have talked to alot of people on and off of this board.

My 2 Cents

 

[((VH))]

((VH)) already put an end to his reference to the name. And so doing, all responses should just focus on the general sentiment or just ruturn to the topic of this thread.

Anyway, I just talked to Bustamante the other night and he said that he is definitely using his Ivor-X ferruled shaft for the WPC. How about that for an endorsement of the Ivor-X ferrule!

Thanks Bandido.
Nothing wrong with late replies

I agree with what you said about earning dues. Being called a cuemaker takes a long and ardous process. Lots of patience, frustrations, gaining knowledge and learning from your mistakes and other cuemakers as well. There is no shortcut. The end product is in what you build, what your own hands build and that's your cues.

Again, special process' like inlays are secondary. Still, a cue has to be built first. Now if someone would say "cuemaker' and can't even put a joint pin straight... there are a lot of things that separate pseudo-cuemakers from the legits.

Some of you don't care if you're talking to the person who actually built your cues. Nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't it be better if you talked with someone who actually builds it for you? JMHO

Thanks for responding Bandido.
I read in this Forum that Busta won a tourney against Parica and Reyes. With your shaft and Ivor-x ferrules if I'm not mistaken. Cheers!
I haven't seen anyone endorse the ferrules though...

 

[mewantpool]

Man, I should have started to read this post earlier. I just couldn't believe that we needed 3 pages to discuss a ferrule. I also have a cue being built by Viattorre custom cues. Jack runs his shop as a process with people doing specific things. If it was Jack all alone, it would prob be called Jack's cues, but it isn't so I wouldn't expect him to do it by himself. Just like South East cues are run by, can't remember his name, but he isn't the only one in the shop. Wether he makes the cues 100% or not, the reputation of the Viattore cues precedes itself. I have NEVER heard of anyone picking up a Viattorre cue and say they didn't like how it hit. And I have talked to alot of people on and off of this board.

My 2 Cents

My thoughts exactly. If it was called Jack custom cues then the customer should expect only Jack alone to build the cue but they are called Viattorre custom cues so it's a group of people who make the cue.

Some cuemakers think that because some newcomer doesn't have as much experience like they do that they cannot build a quality cue. This is bs. Cuemaking, like any other endeavor requires natural talent. No matter how long a person has had experience with building a cue if he does not have the natural talent for it, the best he could do is a 'good' playing cue. People with the natural talent can build 'great' hitting cues even without years and years of experience. I have personally hit with a Viattorre cue and IMO they are the best hitting cues to come out from the Philippines and they are at par or better than most of the reputable US custom cuemakers.

 

[((VH))]

My thoughts exactly. If it was called Jack custom cues then the customer should expect only Jack alone to build the cue but they are called Viattorre custom cues so it's a group of people who make the cue.

Some cuemakers think that because some newcomer doesn't have as much experience like they do that they cannot build a quality cue. This is bs. Cuemaking, like any other endeavor requires natural talent. No matter how long a person has had experience with building a cue if he does not have the natural talent for it, the best he could do is a 'good' playing cue. People with the natural talent can build 'great' hitting cues even without years and years of experience. I have personally hit with a Viattorre cue and IMO they are the best hitting cues to come out from the Philippines and they are at par or better than most of the reputable US custom cuemakers.

I respect your opinion on the matter. If you followed the post carefully, my query was about if Jack of Viattorre is actually a cuemaker. I heard they hit good and whoever is the guy who Jack mentioned to Jaz here who has been building cues with 10 years of experience, he's doing a great job.

I have nothing against Viattorre. If that's the way they run their business I got no problem with that.

IMO, you just can't call somebody a cuemaker if they can't, haven't or don't build em. Jack was reffered to as a "cuemaker" from some city in the Philippines. He admitted in a mail to Jaz that he has a guy who builds cues, a guy who does inlays and he does the painting. I'm just basing it on what I read in this forum.

Maybe we differ in how a cuemaker is defined. JMHO.
To each his own.

 

[mewantpool]

I respect your opinion on the matter. If you followed the post carefully, my query was about if Jack of Viattorre is actually a cuemaker. I heard they hit good and whoever is the guy who Jack mentioned to Jaz here who has been building cues with 10 years of experience, he's doing a great job.

I have nothing against Viattorre. If that's the way they run their business I got no problem with that.

IMO, you just can't call somebody a cuemaker if they can't, haven't or don't build em. Jack was reffered to as a "cuemaker" from some city in the Philippines. He admitted in a mail to Jaz that he has a guy who builds cues, a guy who does inlays and he does the painting. I'm just basing it on what I read in this forum.

Maybe we differ in how a cuemaker is defined. JMHO.
To each his own.

Okay. Just for the sake of argument. Read my 'engineer' analogy from an earlier post. If one person designs the cue to be built from the ground up, he knows exactly what wood combinations work and the type of materials to use and the best method of construction for optimal playability. In other words, this person knows the cue inside and out. Now, this person himself does not build the cue but lets someone else build from the blueprint that the he has laid out. From what you are saying, this designer cannot be considered a cuemaker because he has not done the actual building of the product. Who then deserves the status of cuemaker, the helpers who built the cue? What if these helpers cannot build a cue without a blueprint design? Would you still consider them the cuemakers?

 

[Metzger]

It amazes me that everyone's still responding to someone who is obviously here looking to start a flame war. If we all ignore this troll, he'll probably shut up and hopefully go away. I say again, don't feed the flamer.

 

[bandido]

It amazes me that everyone's still responding to someone who is obviously here looking to start a flame war. If we all ignore this troll, he'll probably shut up and hopefully go away. I say again, don't feed the flamer.

Somehow I had that feeling, that it's going to be a flame war, from the start but there were valid points from both sides (understanding the post while disregarding the names mentioned) . I thought that the "every individual's opinion varies" and "agreeing to disagree" rule should have been observed specially since an attempt to pull the thread back on topic was made. That discussion should have been over and the parties involved should have realized that neither can change the other's opinion.

I'm really sensing that there are hidden reasons for the opinions stated after that point (attempt to pull back to topic). Duck guys, flame war's a coming!LOL

 

[bandido]

I read in this Forum that Busta won a tourney against Parica and Reyes. With your shaft and Ivor-x ferrules if I'm not mistaken. Cheers!
I haven't seen anyone endorse the ferrules though...

Well I am and have been, whether my opinion carries weight or not. My endorsement is based on actual usage in actual competition (IBC Japan Cup and the competition that you mentioned), known to many, while being used/tested by a top ranked player who was in search for shafts (other test shaft has an ivory ferrule) to use in a major competition (2004 WPC).

 

[Buddha Jones]

I don't think this needs to be a flame war, it just poses an interesting question that has sparked a lot of varying opinions. In a non one man shop, who is the cue maker. If it is not a 'production' cue shop, which Viattorre isn't, is it even neccessary to know who does the work, who o give credit too. I think they all deserve credit. When I get around to buying my Ferrari [cough], I know that Enzo isn't going to sign it, but I know that it was hand made. Buy a bunch of no name people, but it still is a Ferrari.

 

[bandido]

I don't think this needs to be a flame war, it just poses an interesting question that has sparked a lot of varying opinions. In a non one man shop, who is the cue maker. If it is not a 'production' cue shop, which Viattorre isn't, is it even neccessary to know who does the work, who o give credit too. I think they all deserve credit. When I get around to buying my Ferrari [cough], I know that Enzo isn't going to sign it, but I know that it was hand made. Buy a bunch of no name people, but it still is a Ferrari.

Did Enzo build the first one? Did Enzo choose his team in building the first cars? Didn't all the team members have to follow Enzo's philosophy to maintain that Ferrari identity? And how did Enzo get to put together his ideas of how a Ferrari is identified? He thought of it and worked on it himself, his mental and physical attributes working as one, isn't it? Even if he had a million engineers, their ideas and findings still don't mean diddly until he studies and approves it. It is only then that every single member of that team followed this, Enzo approved method, faithfully.

With a car, once the certain model passes the R&D Dept., design, engineering, field & lab testing, then it goes into production and just keeps getting duplicated. Unfortunately, with custom cues, the variety of materials used requires the cuemaker to be dependent on his knowledge and past actual experience archive. Ability to recognize and know what to do with the "ever present subtleties", even with woods of the same specie, can only come from knowledge derived from hands-on experience coupled with an inquisitive nature. A cue is +-80% made from natural materials that have characteristics that vary from piece to piece. A custom cue is only as good as the person it represents.
Edwin Reyes

 

[((VH))]

Just to keep things in perspective at least in my own, this is how I define a cuemaker...

he could & does build & has built cues- This is what I believe any one referred to as a cuemaker should possess. This inludes knowledge in every aspect of cuebuilding, from wood selection to pins to construcion techniques and applies this knowledge hands on in building his line of cues. Not just inlaying, putting wraps, pins or whatever.

Cuemaking is a craft where all this knowledge is a applied. In other words, it's wood working or woodcraft. It's a skill, learned and applied.

Doing a taper manually is a skill, even sharpening your cutting bits. Lots of skills required. Gluing veneers is tricky, requires skill. Cutting the tenon or putting on the joint pin and the insert requires skill. Too many to mention...

If just by designing cues would qualify one as a cuemaker, then cuemakers would be dime a dozen. Knowledge about what wood's good, combinations, cue parts etc. won't stand alone. It's one of the essentials.

IMO it's a very complex matter and in which as a whole makes one a cuemaker.

If this is not so, then all we have is just a bunch of cue assemblers, cue painters. That's why we have cue repairmen, inlay men who are also involved in cues but they are labeled as such and they aren't cuemakers.

I maybe wrong, but this what defines a cuemaker to me. JMHO

 

[Canadian cue]

What defines a cue maker? To me the answer is someone who at some point in his or her life, be it present or past, has developed the skills necessary to build QUALITY cues. To accomplish this one needs to be proficient at all aspects of cuemaking, not just one. If, after reaching this point that individual decides to go into production and only manage the operation, that shouldn't take away their title. To me the real question is whether or not a cuemaker can go into production and still maintain the quality. I think the answer to this has to do with motives and time. If a person goes into production their motives are profit and in order to turn a profit you have to justify all the time spent on your product. I believe the true custom cuemaker does not expect to profit from all of their time. Their motives are simply to build the best cue possible. To achieve this one builds in such a way which will give the best end results, not one which will give the best value for time spent. It is the attention to detail which separates the good from the best. These details take time. In which the true cuemaker does not necessarily get paid for .

 

[((VH))]

What defines a cue maker? to me the answer is someone who at some point in his or her life,be it present or past has developed the skills necessary to build QUALITY cues.To accomplish this one needs to be proficient at all aspects of cuemaking,not just one.If after reaching this point that individual decides to go into production and only manage the operation that shouldn't take away there title.

Very true... only then.
Great post CC

 

[Canadian cue]

Thank you ((VH))

 

[bandido]

Good posts CC and ((VH)). I guess the other posters are also referring to a "group of people" regarded as one. That can have a cue manufacturing title but the problem with such arrangement is that if a member drops out of the group then the product will never be the same if the head honcho is not the main knowledge and workmanship "originator and orchestrator".

Southwest is an example, to this day I know that more people prefer the playability of JF era SWs than the post JF SWs. Know of any other examples? Oh yeah, our very own Len Bludworth knows about this.
Edwin Reyes

 

[((VH))]

Good posts CC and ((VH)). I guess the other posters are also referring to a "group of people" regarded as one. That can have a cue manufacturing title but the problem with such arrangement is that if a member drops out of the group then the product will never be the same if the head honcho is not the main knowledge and workmanship "originator and orchestrator".

Southwest is an example, to this day I know that more people prefer the playability of JF era SWs than the post JF SWs. Know of any other examples? Oh yeah, our very own Len Bludworth knows about this.
Edwin Reyes

Thanks Bandido.
That's very true. During the Franklin era yes I agree! The thing is, SW is made of several cuemakers who could also build cues on their own. Problem about some partnerships relegating one aspect of building to one specific person... when that guy's gone who builds em? Then they have to scout for another equally capable of the same task. Very true also if the head honcho is not the one building 'em. IMO, the one who knows how and builds em is and should be the main man. Their product is dependent on the availability and the kind of craftsmanship that they could pay for. You get aguy who knows how to build cues and pay him wages. It's the easy way out. Not credible enough for me. Just my 2 cents... it's just me anyway

 

[bandido]

Thanks Bandido.
That's very true. During the Franklin era yes I agree! The thing is, SW is made of several cuemakers who could also build cues on their own. Problem about some partnerships relegating one aspect of building to one specific person... when that guy's gone who builds em? Then they have to scout for another equally capable of the same task. Very true also if the head honcho is not the one building 'em. IMO, the one who knows how and builds em is and should be the main man. Their product is dependent on the availability and the kind of craftsmanship that they could pay for. You get aguy who knows how to build cues and pay him wages. It's the easy way out. Not credible enough for me. Just my 2 cents... it's just me anyway

I think you're getting everything all mixed up again (one of ((VH))'s characteristic that I noticed). You talk about aspect of the building process then jump into building the whole cue. My view on that, and it's how custom cue shops progress in the industry, is that the owner is the main cuemaker by all descriptions given above by you, me, CC and cueman. So, no matter if any worker moves on the quality and operation isn't hampered. This I think is what happened to SW, Jerry probably is the only one who made the parts choices.

I also asked you a question awhile back and you still haven't answered. Where are you located and are you a cuemaker?
Edwin Reyes

 

[cueman]

This happens a lot more than you think. But you are right that you don't hear about it much. David Kersenbrock has been hire by alot of cuemakers to help them out since leaving South West. I have brought one in for a while years ago. Donald Bludworth works for Southeast cues now. Guylassy hired a well trained cuemaker that worked with Jerico. Bert Schrager's list of helpers through the years would look like a who's who list of top smaller cuemakers. These are just a few examples that come to my mind right off.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com