Jump Cues Pro and Con

Tom In Cincy

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
Pros: I can't think of any at all.

1st a question:
How many Fillipinos use are even have a jump cue? Why don't they?" IMO the reason they don't have them is because they don't need them.

They have learned how to get out of 'lock up safes' by using masse's and kicks. This is the way the game is to be played.


Now the Cons:
Potential cloth and table damage is also a good reason room owners will eventually 'ban' jump cues.

There is a reason that overwieght and oversized base ball bats are banned.
There is a reason that tennis rackets have to adhere to a standard width and height.
There is a reason that golf clubs must meet stiff standards.
There is a reason that the goal on a basket ball court is at a certain height and diameter.

This reason is "STANDARDS". Something the pool community sorely needs. (another thread coming soon)

Jump cues take away from the skill of the safety postion play. Jump cues have cheapened the efforts so many good players have used by learning to play kicks and the masse shot.

Jump cues are way too easy to learn how to use. Even players that would be reated "D" and "C" players can learn how to use a Jump cue before they can learn how to run a rack of 8 or 9 ball.

If you want to attempt to jump a ball, you can use your regular playing cue, or learn how to kick or masse.

JUST my Opinion.
 
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Gremlin said:
Tom,

You speak of safety play. Safety play should be limited by a 30 to 45 second clock and each match should have a Ref. To many cheaters not to have a Ref.

Cheers,

Gremlin
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Gremlin, I am not sure why you have added this comment. Maybe it's all the women players you've been around. (?) Why would you make a statement about "Too many Cheaters"? What does this have to do with Jump cues and a 30-45 second shot clock?

Me thinks you've been hanging around the photo room chemicals too long.
 
Tom, Santos, Efren, Parica and Bustamante now use jump cues.
Blame UPA for that. They should ban the darn thing.
Efren made two jump shots at the Bike that I saw.
Hell, Charlie W made a joke if Efren is jumping, everyone will now.
 
WWF is crooked?
Uh, EVERYONE KNOWS the matches' outcome are predetermined.
Fools just go along with them and pretend they don't know the whole thing is just for show.
I still have no idea if you are agreeing with Tom or not.
 
Gremlin said:
I am sorry for you Tom you are over 50 years old and you don't know what goes on in pool. I am really disappointed in you? Thought you were more knowledgable than that. Tom I use digital cameras Sony and Cannon no chemicals involved. Now back to the subject.

Harry, I can understand your disappointment. I understand you think everyone is more knowledgable than you about anything pool related.

Jump cues should not be allowed. We Agree!! Regular cues only. It speeds up the game and forces the players to use there skills.Skills YES, Speed... this is a strech.. just like your comments about 'cheaters' A ref should monitor each match like WPC so the sharking and disputes can be settled quickly.
If players aren't responsible enough to take action in these cases, (sharking and disputes) maybe a Hall Monitor would be more effective. How many times has there been a DQ for Sharking in the Women's tour? A good TD and enough players with guts to say something would prevent this from happening.

A shot clock should be standard tool to speed up slow boring play.

Take your shot clock idea to the chess matches and ESPN and the Women's tour. That's where it belongs. I am sick of hearing about shot clocks. This isn't basket ball..

Isn't the idea to have people who don't play pool watch it like other sports? Well, a lot of people I know who don't play pool won't watch it because they think it is crooked like the WWF. Sorry to say it but that is the take I get from a lot of my friends who won't watch pool.

I must admit. I am really glad I am not in the same circle of non-pool playing friends that watch (or don't watch) TV Pool that you are. My Non-pool playing friends have a much higher respect for the game, knowing that I am associated with it and have never been known to CHEAT or be associated with the WWF (What ever that is) Most of them usually ask why are the women only showing the same 4 players over and over? Boredom is usually just the lack of knowledge. Maybe that is why your friends are bored?

Harry
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I do like your pictures and have used them from time to time..
 
for all of those who consider jump cues (jump shots entirely?) some sort of shortcut, shots requiring zero skill: i hope you feel the same way about slop in 9 ball. after all, a couple of hours practice with a jump cue might help you escape a LOOSE safety, but nothing is required to shit in balls. i think accidental safes should be removed, too, if we're gonna ban jumping. players should have to call their shot (not even just their ball: call safeties exactly) if we want only uber-skilled players to succeed.

spot the 9 if it pops on the break. call all shots, with details.

then i'll agree that you sincerely only want the best players to succeed. :)
 
I think its going too far...I agree jump cues should be banned..but calling all shots with detail???? so u mean calling the ball in which pocket, and in which postion u will leave the white?
 
I dont really care whether or not jump cues are banned, but I think standards need to be in place. Tom, you made a comment about jump cues damaging tables and pool room owners will ban them themselves. Then you mentioned that masse shots/kicks are needed to get better. Last time I checked masse shots seem to be outlawed in alot of rooms already, and people that try to masse tend to mess tables up more than jump cues. I learned to jump balls with my playing cue, and to this day will use that over a jump cue unless it is a super short jump shot, and if its that close, I would probably kick at the balls.

It is just one extra shot that a person can learn and add to their shot list. If you play someone, you learn what tendencies they have and you play accordingly. If your opponent jumps balls, your safeties better tie up balls, which should be your goal anyways to eliminate the kicks. I dont think jump shots are ruining the game. Kinda like trouble wedges in golf. If you learn to use them, thats your choice. IMO
 
I agree fully with Perk.

You can still play a good safe when your opponent is a jumper: IF you're good enough to lock the cue ball TO another ball.

BeeMan - I don't think that stuff I mentioned should really happen (though, it might be the only way I'd really get into 9 ball). I was just saying that if the reason folks are against jumpers is that the lesser player might be able to neutralize a move made by a better player, then we need to take the idea to its logical outcome, which is bringing intent into a game of luck and slop.

As for standardization: isn't it in place already? Minimum lengths are established, and phenolic and/or leather tips either are or are not allowed (depending on the ruling body). What other elements would be standardized? The wrap? ;)

I do feel a little weird using my Sledge to break when I play 8 ball. I mean, the balls scatter like nothing I've ever seen, and I almost always have a chance to run out from there, but using the non-leather tip does make me feel a little sneaky... I dunno why. I guess because it works SO WELL.

Luckily, from what I hear, it's legal to use in BCA and APA matches. Is that correct?

I don't play tournaments, but those are the two rulesets folks follow here in casual play, so we pick one to start and stick to em.
 
Yes, i know toby.. i hate the slop in pool. thats why i love 8-ball with called shots... i absolutely can't stand it when watching someone obviously is trying to bank a ball off one rail into middle pocket, but don't give enough angle and it goes of two rails and into the other middle pocket....and then everyone around jumps and cheers "wonderful!!" "great shot!!"...bullcrap, u didn't mean it to go there, call the shot.
Do that in a tourney with international rules and its a miscall.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Pros: I can't think of any at all.

1st a question:
How many Fillipinos use are even have a jump cue? Why don't they?" IMO the reason they don't have them is because they don't need them.


I have argued the pro-side of this debate ad-nausem so there is no need to go further on that part of your post, except to say again that jump cues do not damage the cloth. I would argue that I have performed more jump shots than anyone else on this board and I have often demonstrated to room owner that even driving the jump cue into the cloth does no damage. On 99% of jump shots the tip does not even contact the cloth.

I can however name two Filipinos who do use own and use jump cues. Maybe you will recognize their names, Francisco Bustamante and Jose Parica. I also know more of them. I suspect that if the Filipino contingent were to weigh in on this topic that you might be surpised to learn that sales of jump cues are quite brisk in the Phillipines.

John
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instroke said:
Tom In Cincy said:
Pros: I can't think of any at all.

1st a question:
How many Fillipinos use are even have a jump cue? Why don't they?" IMO the reason they don't have them is because they don't need them.


I have argued the pro-side of this debate ad-nausem so there is no need to go further on that part of your post, except to say again that jump cues do not damage the cloth. I would argue that I have performed more jump shots than anyone else on this board and I have often demonstrated to room owner that even driving the jump cue into the cloth does no damage. On 99% of jump shots the tip does not even contact the cloth.



John, I agree, JUMP Cues do not damage the cloth, THE CUE Ball being hit by the Jump cue Damages the cloth. That's for the experienced players that know what they are doing.

What about all the new players that are buying this JUMP cue because they can't jump with their regular cue?

And how does the NEW owner of the Jump Cue practice? And this doesn't damage the cloth?





John
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By the way, I do own a 'Steath' Jump Cue and have found that I don't need it. I still am very capable of using my regular cue to jump and masse and kick.

Anyone interested in a slightly used Steath?
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I had always detested people with jump cues that jump out of my safes...but that made me realize my safes weren't good enough and weren't close enough to the blocking ball. I recently beat a guy gambling who didn't have the cash so he gave me his equipment, including a Kangaroo jumper. So now I have a jump cue and used it probably 6 times this weekend in a larger tourney. Saved me from giving BIH, but still left the guy out since I missed the shot on each jump, save 1. Still I am glad that I do have one now if just to take advantage of crap other people are using.
 
Perk said:
Tom, you made a comment about jump cues damaging tables and pool room owners will ban them themselves. Then you mentioned that masse shots/kicks are needed to get better. Last time I checked masse shots seem to be outlawed in alot of rooms already, and people that try to masse tend to mess tables up more than jump cues. I learned to jump balls with my playing cue, and to this day will use that over a jump cue unless it is a super short jump shot, and if its that close, I would probably kick at the balls.

Perk,
Good point about the extreme masse shots. Most well run with good equipment rooms will not allow masse shots. The Extreme masse shots that require the cue to be elevated way beyond 45 degrees. But there are the softer masse shots that can be used to make the cue ball swerve that don't require the high elevated cue (like the jump cues do)

You are correct about the masse shots. I've seen plenty of these "NO MASSE Shots Allowed" signs in many pool halls. Very bad for the cloth.

IMO
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Good Point Perk
 
Tom,

Jump shots do not damage the cloth. If you really believed that they do and you were that concerned about it then you would not jump, masse' or break with your normal cue either.

If jump cues did actually damage the cloth then they would have been banned universally already. Players would not use them if they damaged the cloth.

This is a hot issue that doesn't need to be clouded with false information. If you have any proof that the general use of jump cues is damaging to the cloth, balls or any other equipment please post it. Otherwise please refrain from making unsupported comments. My proof that the the general use of jump cues stems from four years of demonstrating jump cues and having performed a very conservative estimate of over 100,000 jump shots. (if you must know I have performed about three hour's worth of jump shots for about 40 days a year over four shows for the last four years. In my exhibitions I ususally do about 100 shots in 15 minutes so you can do the math.)

John
 
instroke said:
Tom,

Jump shots do not damage the cloth. If you really believed that they do and you were that concerned about it then you would not jump, masse' or break with your normal cue either.

If jump cues did actually damage the cloth then they would have been banned universally already. Players would not use them if they damaged the cloth.

This is a hot issue that doesn't need to be clouded with false information. If you have any proof that the general use of jump cues is damaging to the cloth, balls or any other equipment please post it. Otherwise please refrain from making unsupported comments. My proof that the the general use of jump cues stems from four years of demonstrating jump cues and having performed a very conservative estimate of over 100,000 jump shots. (if you must know I have performed about three hour's worth of jump shots for about 40 days a year over four shows for the last four years. In my exhibitions I ususally do about 100 shots in 15 minutes so you can do the math.)

John
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Please don't get me wrong. I respect your right to your observations. Your proof is based on what you are seeing after all your years of experience with your demonstartions and product sales exhibitions. I just think you are just a little too close to the subject to give an unbiased view.

I don't call it PROOF, I just have my observations from 39 years of playing and at least 14 years of playing on Samonis.

It was pretty standard to see signs when you entered a pool hall that would boldly state "No Jump Shots" and "No Masse Shots". Why were these signs there? because both shots damaged the cloth.

Just like the Christmas tree pattern you see today on the heavily played tables. The power breaks formed the pattern because of the cue ball being struck and making it jump down the table. Same with the head string line. Where the cue ball is place when breaking. Lots of little indentations (white marks like the Christmas tree patter) all along the head string line.

When you purposely strike the cue ball with a JUMP cue or a regular cue, these marks damage the cloth, even more so than with the powerful 9 ball break shots that cause the X-Mas tree patter. It weakens the area and will eventually cause a tear.

Do you agree that striking the cue ball from above, forcing the cue ball into the surface with a Jump cue, is more FORCE applied on the table than from a break shot?

You have got to admit you've seen the effects of cue balls jumping on the table. This is not an experiment, nor is it a guess. If you visit an average pool hall, with cloth that gets average play, you will see these patterns I have described. The cue ball jumps, and lands on the cloth and compresses it and weakens it. If this isn't damage to the cloth, I'm not sure what anyone else would call it.

This is a discussion forum. Shared opinions are the purpose. Just because I don't meet your requirements for PROOF, doesn't mean I can't state my opinions (just like you do).

I will continue to do so.

And BTW. Instroke Cases are great.. if they were just a little longer I would use them for my cues.

And, John, I do enjoy your posts. You do represent the better part of the industry. Please don't take anything I have posted personally. We are just having a discussion.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Please don't get me wrong. I respect your right to your observations. Your proof is based on what you are seeing after all your years of experience with your demonstartions and product sales exhibitions. I just think you are just a little too close to the subject to give an unbiased view.

I don't call it PROOF, I just have my observations from 39 years of playing and at least 14 years of playing on Samonis.

It was pretty standard to see signs when you entered a pool hall that would boldly state "No Jump Shots" and "No Masse Shots". Why were these signs there? because both shots damaged the cloth.

Just like the Christmas tree pattern you see today on the heavily played tables. The power breaks formed the pattern because of the cue ball being struck and making it jump down the table. Same with the head string line. Where the cue ball is place when breaking. Lots of little indentations (white marks like the Christmas tree patter) all along the head string line.

When you purposely strike the cue ball with a JUMP cue or a regular cue, these marks damage the cloth, even more so than with the powerful 9 ball break shots that cause the X-Mas tree patter. It weakens the area and will eventually cause a tear.

Do you agree that striking the cue ball from above, forcing the cue ball into the surface with a Jump cue, is more FORCE applied on the table than from a break shot?

You have got to admit you've seen the effects of cue balls jumping on the table. This is not an experiment, nor is it a guess. If you visit an average pool hall, with cloth that gets average play, you will see these patterns I have described. The cue ball jumps, and lands on the cloth and compresses it and weakens it. If this isn't damage to the cloth, I'm not sure what anyone else would call it.

This is a discussion forum. Shared opinions are the purpose. Just because I don't meet your requirements for PROOF, doesn't mean I can't state my opinions (just like you do).

I will continue to do so.

And BTW. Instroke Cases are great.. if they were just a little longer I would use them for my cues.

And, John, I do enjoy your posts. You do represent the better part of the industry. Please don't take anything I have posted personally. We are just having a discussion.
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Thank you Tom. I understand what you are saying. In pool experience I only have 24 years and I only have about 8 years of actually paying attention to what jump cues do or don't do to the table. What I was trying to say is that there are opinions and there are facts. An opinion is when you think the cues hurt the cloth and a fact is when you have evidence that they do.

I would never sell a product that would harm the other equipment. That's why I always tested the cues thoroughly on my own equipment. I used to drive the cue tip into the felt vigorously and repeatedly in front of room owners to prove that the cue did not harm the table. After that I tackled the issue of the burn marks, the white spots.

The natural assumption that everyone, including me, makes or made is that the white spots damage cloth and that they are permanent. This is not true. I have shown that the white spots will clean up to the point where they are gone or virtually unnoticable. Last year, in August I cleaned half the table with Quick Clean and left the other half uncleaned during the 10 days of the APA and the comment was frequently that I was only using half the table for the jump shots. In fact I was using the whole table and proving that the shots did no permanent harm and showing the merits of Quick Kleen at the same time.

There is in fact a misconception about what the white spots are and how they are caused. The white spots are where the cloth has been flattened a bit by the shot.

The interesting thing though is that the force of the shot does not determine the intensity of the spot but actually the type of cueball. I noticed this one day in my shop and so I rounded up all the different cueballs I had and started testing them. I found that some cueballs leave an extremely visible spot while others leave a barely discernable mark and the majority are somewhere in between. I let others look at what I discovered and they agreed with my observations. I still have a couple cueballs that I marked for this test.

The interesting thing about this discovery is that the worst mark makers would leave a spot nearly as bright on regular shots with just a little bit of elevation as on jump shots with the jump cue. And this is where the white spots come from. When the table is brushed, vaccumed and :-) Quick Kleened almost all spots disappear and the cloth is no worse for the wear.

Now, have you looked at the 2004 Instroke cases? They accomodate up to 32" inches of rack running cue. :-)

John
 
P.S. I agree about the No Masse' and No Jump Shot signs. They used to be posted in every room right along with no gambling signs. And when I was just getting into the game I did my share of beating up on cloth trying out masse' shots so I understand the intent of the signs. I also know that these rules are almost universally ignored when it comes to better players. As I joined the circle of "players" I noticed that no one ever said anything when I would masse' or jump nor would they bother any of the "good" players about it.

And we both know that "no gambling" is translated into "bet all you want to". :-))

John
 
I think "players" dub the term No Jump Shots as being the causual banger that "scoop" jumps the ball. Its amazing how many people still scoop the cue ball and think they have a cool shot. Whats even better is when you show the same person a real jump shot with accuracy and precision, they about shit themselves.
 
I shoot between 3 and 5 hundred jump shots per week. Jump shots will only damage the cloth if you are shooting the same jump shot over and over again from the same position. Unfortunately this is the case for me, since I work on specific trick shots and jump from the same location constantly. I find that the location where the cue ball is and where the object ball is gets a white indentation in the felt and the balls settle there. Also, once you have the felt flattened out in that spot, the balls jump more easily.

However, jumping while playing a game of 8 or 9 ball should not damage the cloth since it is only one jump shot. The next time you jump, it will be from a different spot. The break shot does more damage to the felt than jumping. If you have a newly recovered table, and play 9-ball, breaking from the corner, you will notice a white spot where you break from, and you will notice a lot of white indentations where the cue ball bounces back towards the center of the table (if you control the cue ball well off the break).

Of course, pool room owners may ban jump shots because once they see a stick elevated, they get nervous. You can't blame them. The general public doesn't know how to jump and they might hit it badly and rip the cloth. Personally, I have seen the 'no masse shots' sign, but never the 'no jump shots' sign.

Andy Segal
 
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