Jump Cues Pro and Con

[BackPocket9Ball]

I think its going too far...I agree jump cues should be banned..but calling all shots with detail???? so u mean calling the ball in which pocket, and in which postion u will leave the white?

Grady Mathews has hosted 9-ball tournaments where every shot you either have to call a pocket or call a safety. If you call a pocket and fail to make the shot, then your opponent has the option to shoot or make you shoot again. This takes away two-way shots, but eliminates luck safes and luck shots -- an alright tradeoff.

 

[fast larry]

Please don't get me wrong. I respect your right to your observations. Your proof is based on what you are seeing after all your years of experience with your demonstartions and product sales exhibitions. I just think you are just a little too close to the subject to give an unbiased view.

I don't call it PROOF, I just have my observations from 39 years of playing and at least 14 years of playing on Samonis.

It was pretty standard to see signs when you entered a pool hall that would boldly state "No Jump Shots" and "No Masse Shots". Why were these signs there? because both shots damaged the cloth.

Just like the Christmas tree pattern you see today on the heavily played tables. The power breaks formed the pattern because of the cue ball being struck and making it jump down the table. Same with the head string line. Where the cue ball is place when breaking. Lots of little indentations (white marks like the Christmas tree patter) all along the head string line.

When you purposely strike the cue ball with a JUMP cue or a regular cue, these marks damage the cloth, even more so than with the powerful 9 ball break shots that cause the X-Mas tree patter. It weakens the area and will eventually cause a tear.

Do you agree that striking the cue ball from above, forcing the cue ball into the surface with a Jump cue, is more FORCE applied on the table than from a break shot?

You have got to admit you've seen the effects of cue balls jumping on the table. This is not an experiment, nor is it a guess. If you visit an average pool hall, with cloth that gets average play, you will see these patterns I have described. The cue ball jumps, and lands on the cloth and compresses it and weakens it. If this isn't damage to the cloth, I'm not sure what anyone else would call it.

This is a discussion forum. Shared opinions are the purpose. Just because I don't meet your requirements for PROOF, doesn't mean I can't state my opinions (just like you do).

I will continue to do so.

And BTW. Instroke Cases are great.. if they were just a little longer I would use them for my cues.

And, John, I do enjoy your posts. You do represent the better part of the industry. Please don't take anything I have posted personally. We are just having a discussion.

TOM, THIS IS FAST, May I say I agree with every word you just said. The bottom line is this, jump shots damage the cloth just as much as masse shots do. They damage and crush cloth fibers and yes the hole can be rubbed out and raised and should be done that way after every shot but nobody today does that. Some people think if you hit a Masse a hole will later appear. This is not true, in a day or two the divot will raise back up and you can hardly tell it was there. What does not go away was the mark on the cloth it made. These holes you see are these little punks who cant run 2 friggen balls begin to practice jumping by scooping under the ball or lousy house cues with bad tips and the edge of the ferrule causes the tears and digs. I get blaimed for this damage all the time and I have nothing to do with it. I got tossed out of one joint over this.

If You practice and hit either shot in the same divot several times real damage begins. It can lead to a later hole and tear. You should see my table, my cloth looks like Omaha Beach on D Day. It has more holes than the Moon. I change my cloth every 2 or 3 months. I realize and accept practice of these two shots does and will destroy a cloth and I am willing to pay that price. You guys should practice those shots on your Dad's home table and not on the room owners table and cloth. You should respect his equipment and his rules. If he says no jumps and masses, obey that rule.

When I practice the Masse I have a half cirlce piece thick backed house cloth cut in a half circle so when I strike the ball the tip hits the backing cloth and not the table bed cloth. There is an opening in front so the ball goes straight out with out interference. The tip impacts into the protective 2nd cloth.
Jumping you can't do anything to help the cloth. You cant jump off a 2nd cloth, it's not the same shot. You can practice the throwing technique and save some damage and I will do that with students, put them on a large 2nd cloth over the cloth. You are driving the cue ball down into the cloth with great force and it is creating a hole and divot. That's a simple fact that cannot be ignored and must be faced.

When I and any one I know does a show that features jumps and masses, we will leave some divots and the cloth will be worked over some. I handle that situation by telling the owner I want to shoot those shots and the fans want to see them and to make everyone happy I give him a brand new Simonis 760 cloth for my show if he will put it on for me. Now I am putting holes in my cloth and not his cloth. I am house pro in several nice rooms in Atlanta. I do not practice these shots in these rooms. I practice them on my two gold crowns in my home studio and I damage my cloth. When I began doing that, room owners stopped baring me out of their joints. Now I am welcome, before I was not.

Just about every room has a table ready to be re clothed. The rooms should designate that table only for jump or masse practice. Both are legal shots and should not be banned from play. Perhaps the room could then allow both shots only to be played in their tournaments and events and not on their tables during normal play unless one goes to that designatged practice table.

There is a way to have these shots and to make the room owner happy as well. The jump cue, my position, let the amateurs use them, ban their use in the pro ranks.

 

[fast larry]

Grady Mathews has hosted 9-ball tournaments where every shot you either have to call a pocket or call a safety. If you call a pocket and fail to make the shot, then your opponent has the option to shoot or make you shoot again. This takes away two-way shots, but eliminates luck safes and luck shots -- an alright tradeoff.

Hi this is Fast, Grady hates 9 ball, calls himself the world's most un lucky 9 ball player. Actually he is right, it is true. Being very smart, he has came up with many cool rules that does make the game a more fair contest, like the winner racks his own balls, I use that now.

I love this rule and I will use if in my game also from now on. Nobody plays me slop. Nothing I hate worse is to have somebody miss, roll lucky and then win that game from that mistake. In Golf, you hit it in the woods, your opponent does not have to go in the woods and hit your bad shot back out on the fairway, you do.

I love this rule, I'll never play another game ever again without this being one of the conditions you must play me with.

On the break at 9 ball I hate it when somebody breaks bad and then is allowed to escape. If you break bad, you should pay a penalty. In my world, you break, make a ball, you have to shoot. If your hooked and can't hit the one ball, you have to take the shot, no push, no safety, if you fail you give up the cue ball in hand. If you don't like that then learn how to break and control the cue ball and one ball on the break.

If you break, don't make a ball and leave no shot, nothing, I can take the shot or make you shoot again. You must make a honest effort to pot the shot. If you shoot a disguised safety, you loose cue ball in hand.

My 9 ball game has no safeties, you must shoot at everything. Now we see banks and kicks jumps and masses come back into play. I play 9 ball fast and loose like it once was played when it first came on the scene. Bust em and run em is the way you play me 9 ball. No Alternate breaks either, I like seeing racks ran. No sissy breaks either, you want to see sissy breaks, turn on espn.

 

[eg8r]

Pros: I can't think of any at all. A very easy pro would be the fact of being able to get out of a tight safety that was not executed to perfection.

1st a question:
How many Fillipinos use are even have a jump cue? Why don't they?" IMO the reason they don't have them is because they don't need them. Doesn't Francisco use one? I don't remember for sure, but I thought I saw him use one on a televised match.

They have learned how to get out of 'lock up safes' by using masse's and kicks. This is the way the game is to be played. Is there some book that states the only way to get out of a lock up safe is masse or kick? I haven't read anything about not jumping. I was just wondering why you feel the need to state "HOW THE GAME IS TO BE PLAYED".


Now the Cons:
Potential cloth and table damage is also a good reason room owners will eventually 'ban' jump cues. No doubt you are correct here....

There is a reason that overwieght and oversized base ball bats are banned.
There is a reason that tennis rackets have to adhere to a standard width and height.
There is a reason that golf clubs must meet stiff standards. If you want to use golf, then explain why they have specialty clubs for certain situations? Why not just have one club? Using golf as an example for why jump cues are bad just weakens your entire defense.
There is a reason that the goal on a basket ball court is at a certain height and diameter. Your other examples of sports work just fine and I understand you point except the basketball. Would that not be a better example if 'standard" pocket sizes where in question (which vary on every table).

This reason is "STANDARDS". Something the pool community sorely needs. (another thread coming soon)

Jump cues take away from the skill of the safety postion play. Jump cues have cheapened the efforts so many good players have used by learning to play kicks and the masse shot. This is as one sided as you can get. How about looking at it from another angle, the jump cue has now required safety play to include some skill so as to not just hide behind a ball, but lock your opponent up. Cheapened the efforts...c'mon. Who are you kidding. Now that the jump cue is here, the skill of playing safe might have actually increased (I have zero proof of this, just offering up the otherside of the argument. It seems Tom gave little effort to the pro side of the argument). If you know your opponent knows how to use his jump cue, you can not get away with some crappy safe that you would otherwise have been lucky.

Jump cues are way too easy to learn how to use. Even players that would be reated "D" and "C" players can learn how to use a Jump cue before they can learn how to run a rack of 8 or 9 ball. This just seems stupid to me (not an attack at Tom). These same D and C players might also learn how to use their playing cue before learning to run a rack. Heck they might even be able to use their break cue (why is this allowed) before running a rack. Just because a guy can use a certain cue does not mean he can use it skillfully. Even so, when these D and C players that threaten you do actually jump the ball, 9 times out of 10 they do not pocket the ob and will probably sell out allowing you to run out.

If you want to attempt to jump a ball, you can use your regular playing cue, or learn how to kick or masse. Once again, this statement is stupid (once again not an attack on Tom). If you want to break the balls, then use your playing cue also.

JUST my Opinion.

JUST my Opinion also. None of the complaints hold water. If the safety play was any good, then the jump would be nullified anyways. More often than not, the people complaining about jump cues have crappy safety positional skills. Just because you can hide behind a ball does not mean you played a good safety. Earlier you used the phrase "lock up safes", to me this means the cue is frozen or less than an inch from the blocker ball. The jump shot is not going to be very helpful in a REAL lock up safe. Especially if this is near the middle of the table. The harder you make the jump shot, the less chance he has of making the ball. This should be your motivation....Play better safeties, not make the jump cue illegal because you play poor safes.

eg8r

 

[eg8r]

A shot clock should be standard tool to speed up slow boring play.

Take your shot clock idea to the chess matches and ESPN and the Women's tour. That's where it belongs. I am sick of hearing about shot clocks. This isn't basket ball..

Is this not hypocrisy at its finest. Here is a quote from the very beginning of this thread

There is a reason that the goal on a basket ball court is at a certain height and diameter.

This example from basketball was good for Tom at the time, however when Gremlin decides to also use basketball as an example of a change he would prefer Tom somehow decides to eloquently state "this isn't basket ball". LOL

I guess as far as Tom is concerned what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. From this point on...If Tom chooses to use another sport as an example, everyone should understand this does NOT mean you can.

eg8r

 

[BazookaJoe]

I get soo tired of hearing people bitch about luck shots or the use of jump cues. If your game is good enough, a couple of lucky rolls from your opponent or a jump cue won't save 'em. The cream always rises to the top.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Is this not hypocrisy at its finest. <snipped.
I guess as far as Tom is concerned what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. From this point on...If Tom chooses to use another sport as an example, everyone should understand this does NOT mean you can.

eg8r

eg8r,

From this point on, "eg8r" is the Hypocrisy POLICE person. Good one.

Goose and Gander is bound to ruffle some feathers.

p.s. I really wish I had caught that sports shot clock reference before it forever labled me a "Hypocrit" Now I am doomed forever.

Maybe someone (me included) needs to figure out how discussions should follow the rules that obviously 'eg8r' has. Is there a chance he could share them with us?

 

[fxskater]

I don't agree with banning Jump cues at all. When I'm playing somebody and he goes for his jump cue, I don't ever think 'He is playing the wrong shot here', or 'He should be kicking at this ball'. I think to myself 'Damn, shoulda put him a little closer too that ball'. It is your own mistake if you are getting beaten by people with jump sticks. I love using my own jump stick not because i have a great chance of pocketing the ball (only about 50%) but because i have a great chance of controlling the cueball (90%). Infact I sometimes will push out to a jump-safe. I can also kick very well 3-4 rails and make contact about 90% of the time, but choose not too because although i can hit the ball no problem, i can't control a 4 rail kick enough to know exactly where the CB and OB are gonna end up. Taking the jump cue out of pool makes no more sense than taking the sandwedge outta golf. Sure i can use a 5 iron to get out of the sand, but i have much more control with my sand wedge. People that get pissed off about a jump shot and wanna compare it to golf should try kicking your gold balls outta the sand off trees instead of taking it directly over the lip with a sand wedge. If they start kicking in golf, I'll throw my jump stick away. Till that day I'm gonna practice my lock up safes so i don't have to whine about Joe Jumpshot getting outta my poorly played hook.

 

[CueHunter]

jump cue

Man, you guys must all be very talented pool players. Saying a jump cue is easy and makes bad players good is crazy. I am a 7 in APA and i have a Bunjee jumper and it works great. However, I have still lost alot of matches that i have used it in. It isn't too bad to hit the ball, but unless it is hanging, still quite a talent to pocket a jump-cut and play shape. After all, if you cant get to the next ball (9-ball) then it doesn't make sense to make a good jump shot with poor position. I like watching the pros who are good at jumping, like shawn putnam for instance who can jump and use draw or follow position play after making the ball. That is great.

 

[eg8r]

eg8r,

From this point on, "eg8r" is the Hypocrisy POLICE person. Good one.

Goose and Gander is bound to ruffle some feathers.

p.s. I really wish I had caught that sports shot clock reference before it forever labled me a "Hypocrit" Now I am doomed forever.

Maybe someone (me included) needs to figure out how discussions should follow the rules that obviously 'eg8r' has. Is there a chance he could share them with us?

Stop...this is the police. Why are you ignoring the real point of that thread? Why are you able to pull from other sports as recommendations, however no one else can? How about describing what you feel is a "lock up safe"? It is obviously a different definition than most because you have c and d players jumping out of them. Surely there is something more to the hatred of the jump cue?

Why no mention as to removing the break cue or even better yet, remove the bridge? Why are you ignoring all these other issues that people have brought up?

eg8r

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Stop...this is the police. Why are you ignoring the real point of that thread? Why are you able to pull from other sports as recommendations, however no one else can? How about describing what you feel is a "lock up safe"? It is obviously a different definition than most because you have c and d players jumping out of them. Surely there is something more to the hatred of the jump cue?

Why no mention as to removing the break cue or even better yet, remove the bridge? Why are you ignoring all these other issues that people have brought up?

eg8r

Geeze eg8r.. I guess I have to respond now.. you've put me on the spot..

1. Other sport analogies are OK. Just for me.. not for anyone else.. this ought to be clear now..

2. "Lock Up Safe" an extreme example, "no way to hit OB". But when you have played a 'lock up safe' my meaning was that only a two rail kick would have a chance to come close to making a good hit on the OB.

3. Break cues? I don't think this is was part of the discussion, but it probably should be.. why not? But, if it is within specific standards (weight, lenght and tip material, size and diameter) what is the difference between a break cue and a playing cue?

4. "the Bridge" is for all the 'reach challenged' 'non- barbox playing' players that venture out to the big tables. It's a handicap thing that has been accepted for longer than I've been playing.... but if you want to consider it also.. I would guess we could discuss it.

Did this meet your requirements? Did I get lucky and missed getting arrested?
Or do I have to add more info for you?

Now my question... What are your rules for engagement in a discussion forum? What would keep everyone or anyone from getting called onto the carpet from egr8?

If I know your rules before hand, maybe I could avoid this type of posting in the future.

Otherwise.... have a nice day

 

[eg8r]

Geeze eg8r.. I guess I have to respond now.. you've put me on the spot..

1. Other sport analogies are OK. Just for me.. not for anyone else.. this ought to be clear now.. Well I thought I had made that evidently clear. I guess you needed to see yourself type it to clear it up for you.

2. "Lock Up Safe" an extreme example, "no way to hit OB". But when you have played a 'lock up safe' my meaning was that only a two rail kick would have a chance to come close to making a good hit on the OB. Then why do you mention lock up safes in an anti-jump cue thread? If the only way to hit the ball is with a 2 rail kick, then it is quite obvious the jump shot would not be a successful hit. Which brings to question, just how accurate do you think the majority of people out there are with the jump cue? Do you honestly think it is a high percentage shot for the majority of the jumpers out there when the cb and obstructing ball are near touching?

3. Break cues? I don't think this is was part of the discussion, but it probably should be.. why not? But, if it is within specific standards (weight, lenght and tip material, size and diameter) what is the difference between a break cue and a playing cue? From what I understand jump also fall under specific standards, so what is your point? My reason for mentioning break cues is that someone without a break cue might feel their opponent has some advantage over them. Isn't that your problem with jump cues, they give your opponent an advantage. Surely it is not because of a less than acceptable lock up safe in which gave their opponent room to make a jump shot.

4. "the Bridge" is for all the 'reach challenged' 'non- barbox playing' players that venture out to the big tables. It's a handicap thing that has been accepted for longer than I've been playing.... but if you want to consider it also.. I would guess we could discuss it.

Did this meet your requirements? Did I get lucky and missed getting arrested?
Or do I have to add more info for you? You don't have to DO anything.

Now my question... What are your rules for engagement in a discussion forum? What would keep everyone or anyone from getting called onto the carpet from egr8? Don't chastise someone else for doing exactly the same thing you did earlier in the same thread? I do however enjoy your sarcastic questions as they may be a good example of the type of person you are. If you are called out, instead of fixing (or at least admitting) the issue you joke in an effort to divert. I have no rules and I would not expect you to follow them if I did (This is not my board). Sarcasm is your line of defense, I wonder if this is how you handle yourself in your everyday activities.

If I know your rules before hand, maybe I could avoid this type of posting in the future.

Otherwise.... have a nice day

Have a nice day.

eg8r

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Have a nice day.

eg8r

I always have a nice day. I work, have a great family, live in a warm area, have a nice house, new car, play pool and post on the internet.. what more can you ask for?

1. Two rail kicks IMO would be a lock up safe. Being able to jump over the impeding balls would be much easier out. If you need to see an example, I am sure I could do something in the 'wei' table to illustrate.

2. No more sports analogies. (for awhile anyway)

3. Of course I don't think that when the cue ball and impeding ball are almost touching, it's a high % shot with a jump cue. This is an extreme example. The 2 rail lock up safe, (CB in the open but single rail blocked), can present the OB to the CB with a simple Jump shot, either playing cue jump or Jump Cue.

4. Sarcasm, funny you should mention that. When I re-read my last post, that's exactly what I was trying to do.

If you want to read my posts and think about what I have posted, fine. It's your choice. Critizing someone for having an opinion or the manner in which they post.

Not me.. that's your job.

 

[pocoloco12003]

I use my jump cue mostly when you guys play me safe. It some of you guys don't like me jumping, then how about we just ban all playing safe?

 

[BazookaJoe]

I use my jump cue mostly when you guys play me safe. It some of you guys don't like me jumping, then how about we just ban all playing safe?

AAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, No, No
Thats 75% of my game