Jumpers

ALL jump shots and masse shots have an effect on the cloth. Don't fool yourself. Any time you strike a hard phenolic ball down into a piece of slate covered by a cloth material, the cloth gets compressed. Look for the nice white burn marks on your Simonis cloth.

Actually, different balls affect the cloth in different ways. From heavy compression to light compression. The cloth is not "burnt" it is compressed and will come back to normal height when the cloth is cleaned.

As you know I was responsible for bringing the Bunjee Jumper to America and was the first person to sell a sub-$100 jump cue that really worked in the USA in a big way. As that person I did a lot of research to make sure that the cue I was selling would NOT HARM the cloth in any way. I spent thousands of hours over nearly ten years doing demonstrations to PROVE that using the jump cue did NOT HURT the cloth.
My response regarding jump cues - only make leather tips allowable on all cues. No non-pliable materials. Then let's see if everyone has the same love affair with their jump cues. Back in the day of the original Mace and the Falcon jump break, the jump shot was discretionary - there were only select distances where the jump cue could be used accurately.

What is pliable? Who determines it? How will this be enforced?
The thing is that any material should be allowed which does not harm the ball or any of the other equipment. Phenolic tips do not harm the balls nor do they harm the cloth. I don't care what anyone wants to use on their tip as long as those two criteria are adhered to.

Now surely you will tell me that the tips do harm to the balls and cloth. Well, all I have as proof against that is the thousands of hours of demonstrations as well as thousands of cues sold. I did these demonstrations for room owners among others and most of my Bunjee wholesale customers were room owners.

The fact is that the super hard tip does facilitate the jump shot to a higher degree than any other tip. So what? The fact that this was discovered and honed to perfection is only proof that innovation is alive and well. A need was created through the enactment of one-foul ball in hand and the modern jump cue was developed to fill that need. Along the way it has brought the jump shot to the same degree of performance as any other shot. Meaning that the ONLY limitation is the shooter's own skill and not the cue.

You are correct that previous versions had limitations. Just as previous versions of cues limited their users range of makeable shots as well.

If someone made a rule that everyone had to play with a shaft with the same taper, tip, ferrule and weight then I am sure that most people on this board would be up in arms and in open rebellion. Is there any different to suggest that we go back jump cues which are very limiting in the range of shots that they allow?

Why on earth does anyone care?

It's not the cue that is making the shot. It is the person wielding the cue. So what if the cue makes the shot possible? Send an APA4 back in time with a leather tip and a cube of chalk and they will be the world champion in the time before leather tips and chalk.

However when tips and chalk became widespread the champions stayed the champions but the overall level of skill went up dramatically because the ability to control the cueball to a greater degree was GRANTED through the discovery and implementation of leather tips and chalk.

Proof? Do a search and see how many people have switched out the Water Buffalo tips on their Stealth jumpers for the White Diamond and noticed a huge difference in performance.

I have never noticed that but what about when people say that they switched to a Moori from a LePRo and have noticed a huge difference, or from a stock one piece shaft to a laminated shaft? Should we ban those items because people are getting better performance out of them?

Last time I checked I haven't seen any shortstop suddenly beating everyone because they have a jump cue. In ten years of selling jump cues I have yet to see that a jump cue has made any difference in a person's skill level and subsequently elevated them to a level that they shouldn't be at simply because they possess one. I have however seen many people start practicing to master the shots that the jump cue makes possible and those people have better control and accuracy when jumping. Those same people also practicing kicking and banking and safety play and well......whatever they need to in order to succeed.

All phenolics, or non-pliable materials should be banned by all sanctioning bodies for use as a tip on any cue. Everyone says this is a black eye on innovation - I say BULLS@#T. Putting a rock hard tip on the end of a ferrule isn't innovation.

Sure it is. That's the same as saying that putting a piece of leather on the end of a piece of wood isn't innovation. Or figuring out that chalk would work to increase friction isn't innovation. People worked out the bugs on jump cues until those sold today are just about perfect for the task. Many people have tried out a lot of different combinations to achieve this. It's not like someone tripped one day and accidentally glued a piece of phenolic onto the end of a cue.

There were guys in the pool hall back in the 80s that were shooting jump shots with house cues - they picked a cue off the wall with no tip, and could make jump shots with no issue. They were innovators, I guess.

No, they were skilled. Those same guys are SUPER SKILLED now with jump cues in their hands.

Jumping has been in the pro game for some time now. Back in the 80s and 90s, we were treated to some fantastic safety battles between Earl and Mike, Johnny and Efren. If today's modern jump cue had existed then, phenolic tip and all, it would have lasted one shot - HOOK, JUMP, DONE.

Have you watched any pro pool lately? We are still treated to fantastic safety battles. Those battles now include the jump cue as something to use to get out of safeties and as something to defend against with tighter safeties. Because of the jump cue safeties have to be very tight to defend against them and this FORCES players to get better. Because of the jump cue allowing a HUGE RANGE of jump shots, including straight jumps from a credit card's width to 8ft into a six inch target and jump banks, jump masse' , jump-stop shots, jump follow, jump shots with sidespin, jump kicks, etc... players now have many more shots to learn and master. This makes the game much much better.

Aside from the facts that jump cues do no harm to the game and have in fact elevated it much in the same way the leather tip and chalk did, there is the crowd pleasing aspect of the shot. In a time when we are all complaining about the demise of pool we should definitely embrace something like this that makes the game more exciting. It is a STONE COLD FACT that knowledgeable audiences, such as those at the US OPEN go NUTS when a great jump shot under pressure is executed. More times than I can count I have seen it first hand that audiences go nuts when a great jump shot is made.

On any jump shot whether using a "full cue" or a shorter "jump cue" the player still has to do EVERYTHING that he/she must do on every other shot PLUS they have to do in an elevated position facing the table bed.

That's right, they have to line up right, aim correctly, judge the speed correctly, control their stroke, apply the right amount of spin, AND they have to do this while elevated in an awkward position and using a super hard tip prone to miscues.

And this is somehow seen as easy?????

Well, I have $10,000 that says no person on the planet earth can make my ten EASY shots on the first try if they have a ball blocking them. I don't care what tip they have on the cue or what cue they have. At the upcoming Super Billiards Expo I will give ten to one odds against it. I will set up ten easy shots that any shortstop can make ten for ten. I will put a blocking ball no more than a ball's width away from the cueball and no closer to the object ball than two ball's widths and I will bet $10,000 against $1000 that there is not one person on earth, not even the most skilled jumper on the planet who will make them 10 for 10 on one try.

Prove me wrong and take my money.
 
I dont mind jumping as a rule, just wish you had to use a full cue if you wanted to do it. Jumpin with accuracy takes great skill, but jumping full cue with accuracy is that much harder.

Not true.

Jumping with a full cue with accuracy is easier. Only the act of jumping with a full cue is harder.

This is because using a full cue in the elevated position is physically much harder. The range of shots available is therefore limited severely. However within the range of available shots it's relatively easy to control the jump shot and the cueball when you have mastered the technique.

Let's take your statement and change it a little by substituting mace for full cue and see if you can see the parallel.

I dont mind using sidespin as a rule, just wish you had to use a mace if you wanted to do it.

A mace is an old instrument used to play pool which was without leather tip and without chalk and basically allowed very little control of the cue ball.
 
Guns don't kill people, people do. Jump cue's don't harm tables, unskilled players do. That said, who should bear the cost of repairing torn felt when some moron decides to try something "innovative"? The moron? Perhaps. That's if the moron 'fesses up. Unlikely.The person who rips the felt rarely does the right thing because they know that to recover a table will cost 3 to 4 hundred dollars at a minimum. Not to mention the stigma associated with being the one who tore the felt in the first place.So that leaves us with the poolroom owner to cover this cost. It's no wonder then that poolroom owners are somewhat reluctant to maintain their tables in a manner that would please the players. If a player want's to become "skilled" in this "innovation"then they should do it at home on their own table. Poolroom owners can and should place sharp restrictions and/or fines regarding this "innovation". P.S. Force= Mass x velocity squared.(to help with that "proof" you speak of.)
 
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I'd like to see a rule stating one cue per player per match..

get rid of the gimmick sticks and the gimmick shots will go with them..

it'll never happen but it would be nice..
 
Not so long ago. In a land not so far away. The poolrooms all had a sign on the wall something like this. No leaning or sitting on the tables. No drinks on the tables. No jump or masse' shots allowed. While I'm always open to new ideas and innovation, doesn't it seem like this last rule ... the jump...has gone by the wayside? Designed to protect the equipment, which the poolroom owner maintains for our pleasure; The jump is no longer banned but is actually encouraged. Jump sticks, jump bridges, jump lessons. When I play bad shape I expect that the penalty is that I'm hooked. When I play a good safety I expect that my opponent should suffer the same. I know that this jumping mentality is not going away anytime soon, or ever. Too much money to be made. The game suffers though. Too soon there will be no one left that appreciates a good kick when they see one. Or play one.

you want ppl to stop jumping? play better safeties!
 
The Jump

Its funny, I like seeing a great kick shot, however, I tend to jump even when I see the kick.

I do have 1 thing to add, at Turning Stone last month Mika was in a hill hill match and had the cue ball behind the 9 in the bottom left corner and the 7 ball in the middle of the table. The CB was froze to the bottom rail. There were hundreds of people standing around the table watching... Everyone was like No way he would jump this, he is going to kick and play safe (boring) and I heard like 10 people (NO JOKE 10 PEOPLE) just around me say how awsome it would be if he jumped and made the 7 ball. This was a HUGE jump with the CB froze to the rail, and he would have had to draw back for position. One of the sickest jumps I have EVER seen. Seriously I think there is a VERY small number of people who could have made that 7 ball with their tournament life on the line!

Now he made the jump and the crowd went nuts that he tried it 1, and 2, that he nutted the shot! Unfortunately he fouled and touched anouther ball while stokeing through the CB and it was an all ball foul tournament, BUT Mika made the 7, one of the sickest jumps I have seen, ask ANYONE that was standing next to that table watching.

Fans like to see the jumps and to someone who dosn't know anything about pool, its pretty damn awsome to see someone jump and make a ball! Vs, just a kick and make a ball...

So as a promoter, its good for the fans to see the jump cue come out of the case. Go to the US Open and wait for someone to walk back and get their jump cue, you will see everyone leaning forward in the chair watching the shot! Its exciting!! Not to mention to make a good shot and position is an art of its own... Or just go to a pool room try and make a jump shot and watch ALL the eyes watching you... Its awsome to see someone jump from a fans stand point.

Keep the jump cue in the game.
 
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WELL SAID... I read your post after I wrote mine! Well Said... Hit the Nail on the head in each paragraph.

Actually, different balls affect the cloth in different ways. From heavy compression to light compression. The cloth is not "burnt" it is compressed and will come back to normal height when the cloth is cleaned.

As you know I was responsible for bringing the Bunjee Jumper to America and was the first person to sell a sub-$100 jump cue that really worked in the USA in a big way. As that person I did a lot of research to make sure that the cue I was selling would NOT HARM the cloth in any way. I spent thousands of hours over nearly ten years doing demonstrations to PROVE that using the jump cue did NOT HURT the cloth.


What is pliable? Who determines it? How will this be enforced?
The thing is that any material should be allowed which does not harm the ball or any of the other equipment. Phenolic tips do not harm the balls nor do they harm the cloth. I don't care what anyone wants to use on their tip as long as those two criteria are adhered to.

Now surely you will tell me that the tips do harm to the balls and cloth. Well, all I have as proof against that is the thousands of hours of demonstrations as well as thousands of cues sold. I did these demonstrations for room owners among others and most of my Bunjee wholesale customers were room owners.

The fact is that the super hard tip does facilitate the jump shot to a higher degree than any other tip. So what? The fact that this was discovered and honed to perfection is only proof that innovation is alive and well. A need was created through the enactment of one-foul ball in hand and the modern jump cue was developed to fill that need. Along the way it has brought the jump shot to the same degree of performance as any other shot. Meaning that the ONLY limitation is the shooter's own skill and not the cue.

You are correct that previous versions had limitations. Just as previous versions of cues limited their users range of makeable shots as well.

If someone made a rule that everyone had to play with a shaft with the same taper, tip, ferrule and weight then I am sure that most people on this board would be up in arms and in open rebellion. Is there any different to suggest that we go back jump cues which are very limiting in the range of shots that they allow?

Why on earth does anyone care?

It's not the cue that is making the shot. It is the person wielding the cue. So what if the cue makes the shot possible? Send an APA4 back in time with a leather tip and a cube of chalk and they will be the world champion in the time before leather tips and chalk.

However when tips and chalk became widespread the champions stayed the champions but the overall level of skill went up dramatically because the ability to control the cueball to a greater degree was GRANTED through the discovery and implementation of leather tips and chalk.



I have never noticed that but what about when people say that they switched to a Moori from a LePRo and have noticed a huge difference, or from a stock one piece shaft to a laminated shaft? Should we ban those items because people are getting better performance out of them?

Last time I checked I haven't seen any shortstop suddenly beating everyone because they have a jump cue. In ten years of selling jump cues I have yet to see that a jump cue has made any difference in a person's skill level and subsequently elevated them to a level that they shouldn't be at simply because they possess one. I have however seen many people start practicing to master the shots that the jump cue makes possible and those people have better control and accuracy when jumping. Those same people also practicing kicking and banking and safety play and well......whatever they need to in order to succeed.



Sure it is. That's the same as saying that putting a piece of leather on the end of a piece of wood isn't innovation. Or figuring out that chalk would work to increase friction isn't innovation. People worked out the bugs on jump cues until those sold today are just about perfect for the task. Many people have tried out a lot of different combinations to achieve this. It's not like someone tripped one day and accidentally glued a piece of phenolic onto the end of a cue.



No, they were skilled. Those same guys are SUPER SKILLED now with jump cues in their hands.



Have you watched any pro pool lately? We are still treated to fantastic safety battles. Those battles now include the jump cue as something to use to get out of safeties and as something to defend against with tighter safeties. Because of the jump cue safeties have to be very tight to defend against them and this FORCES players to get better. Because of the jump cue allowing a HUGE RANGE of jump shots, including straight jumps from a credit card's width to 8ft into a six inch target and jump banks, jump masse' , jump-stop shots, jump follow, jump shots with sidespin, jump kicks, etc... players now have many more shots to learn and master. This makes the game much much better.

Aside from the facts that jump cues do no harm to the game and have in fact elevated it much in the same way the leather tip and chalk did, there is the crowd pleasing aspect of the shot. In a time when we are all complaining about the demise of pool we should definitely embrace something like this that makes the game more exciting. It is a STONE COLD FACT that knowledgeable audiences, such as those at the US OPEN go NUTS when a great jump shot under pressure is executed. More times than I can count I have seen it first hand that audiences go nuts when a great jump shot is made.

On any jump shot whether using a "full cue" or a shorter "jump cue" the player still has to do EVERYTHING that he/she must do on every other shot PLUS they have to do in an elevated position facing the table bed.

That's right, they have to line up right, aim correctly, judge the speed correctly, control their stroke, apply the right amount of spin, AND they have to do this while elevated in an awkward position and using a super hard tip prone to miscues.

And this is somehow seen as easy?????

Well, I have $10,000 that says no person on the planet earth can make my ten EASY shots on the first try if they have a ball blocking them. I don't care what tip they have on the cue or what cue they have. At the upcoming Super Billiards Expo I will give ten to one odds against it. I will set up ten easy shots that any shortstop can make ten for ten. I will put a blocking ball no more than a ball's width away from the cueball and no closer to the object ball than two ball's widths and I will bet $10,000 against $1000 that there is not one person on earth, not even the most skilled jumper on the planet who will make them 10 for 10 on one try.

Prove me wrong and take my money.
 
Seeing as how you need to strike down on the cueball with ALOT of force to gain the desired effect, I would conclude that all measure of controlling it is sacrificed. Well amost all, anyway kicking at the shot allows the shooter to control the speed of the cueball and the ball being kicked at. Thus the chances of flying the cueball off the table becomes virtually zero." Luck is when preparation meets opportunity" Chuck Knox.

Well FYI , your absolutely dead wrong. :)

But to make it fair for you , I'll set up the jump shot I spoke of and video tape 50 shots at it. I'll give you a dollar for everytime I miss and you give me 50 for every shot I make. Should be a push right ? Let me know when you need the Paypal addy.

:)
 
Well FYI , your absolutely dead wrong. :)

But to make it fair for you , I'll set up the jump shot I spoke of and video tape 50 shots at it. I'll give you a dollar for everytime I miss and you give me 50 for every shot I make. Should be a push right ? Let me know when you need the Paypal addy.

:)
Again, I am talking about the game. Not you.
 
Ok I will admit that I’m not nearly as skilled as most pool players as I’m very new at playing pool yet I know how to LEGALLY jump a ball. The one thing that is overlooked is that you must elevate the cue and jump the cue ball with top, not bottom, english to legally jump a ball. Most unskilled players that try to jump that tear the cloth are scooping, using extreme bottom english. These are also the same player that most pool hall owners relay on for the steady income as they are playing pool for fun and don’t really care to get any better. Also truthfully pool owners can't tell if the person was trying to jump or if the person simply miscued due to the amount of bottom english the person put on the cue ball. So are the pool owners going to start imposing fines when a person miscues????
 
I don't see the point of jumpshots hurting the cloth. Of course you make little dents into the clotch because the jumpshot is the same effect as we use it for a fair rack.
That's called "tapping" and is very popular here in Germany. So me deliberately make 15 little dents into the clotch to secure a fair rack all the time and we do play straight pool on these tables as well where you have many slow rolls around the rack. Still pros and amateurs prefer tapped tables for 8-Ball and 10-Ball and also for 14.1 because the split you get is phenomenal and you can even call balls from a closed 14-ball rack is you lose shape.

So where is the point of "hurting" the cloth if there's a little dent near a rail or somewhere else?

What I don't like about jumpshots is poor amateur players being only able to hit a ball with a jumpshot, but just yesterday I've lost two 8-Ball matches because of insane jumpshots.
1. 7/8th table length jumpshot, object ball 1 inch away from the headrail at the middle diamond. Player called it cross corner and made it. Cueball stopped dead at the headrail for shape on the next ball

2. Cueball at 1,5 diamond on the side rail and at the 1st diamond of the footrail 2 balls away from a blocker, player calls a cross corner bank. Objectball is at the other outer diamond of the footrail at the 1st diamond of the siderail. Player makes the bankshot and plays shape over the siderail onto the 8 which was about 5 inches above the cueball.

I lost these matches (and some others) and didn't finish in the money, but I had to applaude for these shots. This was great skill and this is absolutely needed at the level these players normally compete in our league system.

It was no luck, these guys constantly ran the tables, played great normal shots, played good patterns and played good combinations, so where's the problem of having a strong jumpshot ability in your arsenal?

I myself have a custom jumpstick in my case and I am able to pot balls with a jumpshot and I can play a little draw shot on easy short jumps, but I admit I have very little ability in playing shape off a jumpshot. But still it helps me winning games and so it's a good thing. But I can kick and bank as well, but why should I take a risky 2 or 3 cushion escape if I have the option of making the ball with a jumpshot???
 
The only funny part of this whole discussion is like always , some poeple want to pick and choose the stage of evolution they want to keep and call everyhting else 'Wrong".

Why not hate Phenolic balls ?

Rubber rails ?

Break cues ?

2 peice playing cues ?

Leather tips ?

Tapered shafts ?

Why not just go all the way back to playing outside on the grass ?
 
Let me follow up on something I stated before I get steam rolled. I said that I'm not very skilled because I am still very new. I know how to jump yes. I'm not very good at kicking and also banking but till i'm skilled enough or confrontable enough with kicking and banking then yes I will prefer to jump. The banks and kicks that I know how to make then yes I will kick or bank the ball but there are many that I don't know.
 
.....omitted text due to the fact that John has a habit of being incredibly longwinded....

Some of us actually feel that good safety play should be rewarded. I happen to be one of them. If you can't kick and hit it, learn how, or give me ball in hand. It's just that simple.

Your essays on the legitimacy of jump cues are appreciated. But, you could type the "War and Peace" of why jump cues are great for civilization, like running water and sewer systems, and I will still be against them (jump cues, not running water and sewer systems).

I don't like jump cues. That will never change. Sorry.
 
The only funny part of this whole discussion is like always , some poeple want to pick and choose the stage of evolution they want to keep and call everyhting else 'Wrong".

Why not hate Phenolic balls ?

Rubber rails ?

Break cues ?

2 peice playing cues ?

Leather tips ?

Tapered shafts ?

Why not just go all the way back to playing outside on the grass ?

This is SUCH an original post. I've never seen this before.......

No one has said jump shots shouldn't be allowed. Everyone keeps labelling jump shots as a skill shot. There is very little skill involved in jumping a cueball over a blocker. With today's G10 tips, and other phenolic tips, jumping is easy for anyone that can hold a cue.

Let's say I get my cue retipped. I normally play with a Triangle tip. Now, let's say you put a Le Pro on my cue. Or a Moori. Or an Elk Master. Will I suddenly lose the ability to draw or follow the cueball when I shoot? I'm not talking "touch" , like ending up perfect on a ball. Will I lose the ability to spin the cueball? Could I run racks with the Triangle, but then not be able to make 1 ball with a Moori? I highly doubt it, as I have played with all of those tips, and didn't see much difference in my playing ability.

Let's take that same logic to a jump cue. Let's say I cut off the phenolic tip, and put on a hard Water Buffalo tip. Can you still jump the ball? Yes. But, is it tougher? Yes. Can you hop a ball that is a chalk-width away? Most likely not. The phenolic gives you the ability. You could use the exact same stroke, but you need a non-compressible material on the end of the jump cue to maximize its performance.

So, here's my beef - nothing should go on the end of the cue that is non-compressible. Simple enough? Keep your jump cue - just put on a Samsara tip, or a WB tip, or something else that is a pliable material.
 
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This is SUCH an original post. I've never seen this before.......

No one has said jump shots shouldn't be allowed. Everyone keeps labelling jump shots as a skill shot. There is very little skill involved in jumping a cueball over a blocker. With today's G10 tips, and other phenolic tips, jumping is easy for anyone that can hold a cue.

Let's say I get my cue retipped. I normally play with a Triangle tip. Now, let's say you put a Le Pro on my cue. Or a Moori. Or an Elk Master. Will I suddenly lose the ability to draw or follow the cueball when I shoot? I'm not talking "touch" , like ending up perfect on a ball. Will I lose the ability to spin the cueball? Could I run racks with the Triangle, but then not be able to make 1 ball with a Moori? I highly doubt it, as I have played with all of those tips, and didn't see much difference in my playing ability.

Let's take that same logic to a jump cue. Let's say I cut off the phenolic tip, and put on a hard Water Buffalo tip. Can you still jump the ball? Yes. But, is it tougher? Yes. Can you hop a ball that is a chalk-width away? Most likely not. The phenolic gives you the ability. You could use the exact same stroke, but you need a non-compressible material on the end of the jump cue to maximize its performance.

So, here's my beef - nothing should go on the end of the cue that is non-compressible. Simple enough? Keep your jump cue - just put on a Samsara tip, or a WB tip, or something else that is a pliable material.

Yeah , quite a few people say jumping should not be allowed. In fact that was the general basis of this thread.

But anyway , there's definately more skill getting the CB off the ground than there is shooting it into a rail. I see newbs all day long slamming there brand new Pred Air into the cloth and doing nothing but knock the CB right in the blocker with a loud THWACK ! In my whole life however , I have never seen anyone take aim at a rail for a bank and miss the rail.


Doing either with accuracy is a skill many do not have not matter what cue they buy. Mearly popping over a blocker is probably level to seeing a 2 rail kick. Then you get into 3 rail kicks and jumping to pot , kicking to specific sides of the OB to kick safe or to pot and jumping to pot and get shape. If the was zero skill in a jump then there would be no signs saying not to. ;)

And FWIW , I use WB tips on my breaker and my jumpers. Always have.
 
Mearly popping over a blocker is probably level to seeing a 2 rail kick. Then you get into 3 rail kicks and jumping to pot , kicking to specific sides of the OB to kick safe or to pot and jumping to pot and get shape. If the was zero skill in a jump then there would be no signs saying not to. ;)

Jumping over a blocker is equal to a two rail kick? Jumping to pot is equal to a 3 rail kick?

So, how does inside and outside english affect your jump shots? ;)
 
Jumping over a blocker is equal to a two rail kick? Jumping to pot is equal to a 3 rail kick?

So, how does inside and outside english affect your jump shots? ;)

I'll jump you Armstrong!

Shawn kicks and jumps very well. I rarely see him reach for the short stick though.
 
Jumping over a blocker is equal to a two rail kick? Jumping to pot is equal to a 3 rail kick?

Sure , why not. ;)

So, how does inside and outside english affect your jump shots? ;)

Oh it does, it does.

But don't forget draw and top. :grin-square:

Seriously tho , I can and do jump with english. :eek:
 
Oh it does, it does.

But don't forget draw and top. :grin-square:

Seriously tho , I can and do jump with english. :eek:

I was talking about kicking with english versus jumping with english. Guess you missed out on my sarcasm.

To say that jumping the ball is as simple as a two rail kick is absurd in itself. As Grady has said multiple times, "I can teach a player to jump in 10 minutes. It takes a lifetime to learn how to kick well".

I would hate to hook you if you can make 2 and 3 rail kick shots as easily as a single blocker jump shot. Is your name Efren? Wait.....can't be....Efren doesn't jump.
 
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