Just a thought

[okinawa77]

Ever wonder why the CB scratches when banking with force follow?

How about trying to replicate the CB path without the banking of the OB. It's no longer a force follow shot, but rather a masse shot.

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[Patrick Johnson]

Why would you shoot that shot with hard follow?

pj
chgo

 

[rcarson]

Can you gives us a better explanation on what you are trying to accomplish or what it is your trying to explain? Honestly I have no idea what your talking about or why you would try to put so much follow in the cue-ball to have it go into the corner? To me that is a nice firm straight back bank??? leaving your cue a daimond and a half up the top side rail......

 

[Drawman623]

Force follow by the rail

I've used this type shot to make a nine-ball or two when the runout looked ugly and the money ball was hanging. I'm weak in 3C but I think the term is "doubling the rail" when using force follow to get a hit on the second object ball.

 

[okinawa77]

Why would you shoot that shot with hard follow?

pj
chgo

There are several situations in which you would want to do this type of shot. It comes up in 1P, Bank Pool, and 9B.

 

[okinawa77]

I've used this type shot to make a nine-ball or two when the runout looked ugly and the money ball was hanging. I'm weak in 3C but I think the term is "doubling the rail" when using force follow to get a hit on the second object ball.

Yeah, that right. I was just thinking about how/why the CB reacts the way it does on this bank shot. It seems that the CB's reaction off the OB makes it go from a force follow english to a masse. The reason I think this, is because if you were to remove the OB and put the CB at that impact location...to simulate the reaction, you have to shoot at the CB like a masse shot....in order to "double the rail".

 

[okinawa77]

Can you gives us a better explanation on what you are trying to accomplish or what it is your trying to explain? Honestly I have no idea what your talking about or why you would try to put so much follow in the cue-ball to have it go into the corner? To me that is a nice firm straight back bank??? leaving your cue a daimond and a half up the top side rail......

It's just a thought I had. Sometimes, I imagine the CB/OB spin in my mind, and I was thinking about this shot. I guess, I was just wondering if other pool players think about this, and have thoughts about this scenario

OBs can be banked using all types of english. It's not just about pocketing the OB, it's also about getting the CB to go where you need it to go.

I just thought it was interesting how the CB started with force follow, but when it strikes the OB, it acts as if the CB was masse'ed off the OB.

 

[okinawa77]

An actual shot I did while playing a game

This is one example of this shot being used in a game.

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[okinawa77]

I think this thought popped in my head, while I was watching the WPBA San Diego tourney on TV. I remember seeing a diagram of a Jeanette Lee ad.

It looked something like this:

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[RRfireblade]

Unless I'm missing what your trying to say the simple explanation is that the CB retains some of the forward spin it has after hitting the OB and rail.

 

[mullyman]

Unless I'm missing what your trying to say the simple explanation is that the CB retains some of the forward spin it has after hitting the OB and rail.

Agreed. This goes back to the debate if whether the cue ball is actually spinning with follow. I say it is. On the shot diagrammed the OB is so close to the rail that when the cue ball comes off it and comes off the rail it's still spinning forward and has forward momentum which forces it back to the rail. That type of force follow along the rail can be used for all types of shots.
MULLY
I'd never hit that shot with follow

 

[okinawa77]

Mully,

Just curious, do you ever use follow on a bank shot with the OB near the rail?

 

[crappoolguy]

I think it is because if the cue ball has lots of forward momentum and hits the cushion, it will still be spinning in the same way when it comes of the cushion. Effectivly the follow becomes draw.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... I was just thinking about how/why the CB reacts the way it does on this bank shot. It seems that the CB's reaction off the OB makes it go from a force follow english to a masse.

The follow spin simply remains on the CB after it hits the rail, continuing to drive it forward toward the rail even after rebounding.

It's usually encountered as a problem when shooting a ball that's close to the corner pocket and trying to power the CB back uptable off the end rail - the follow tends to kill the CB at the wrong end of the table.

A kill shot with draw gives much more control - this force-follow kill shot is very rarely useful.

pj
chgo

 

[okinawa77]

PJ,

I'm not really concerned about the usefulness of the shot.
My main point is...if I were to shoot the CB into the rail with follow, it doesn't "double the rail", but if I hit an OB near the rail with follow, it does double the rail.
So, my concern is how/why the CB's behavior changes when colliding with a OB near the rail.

In order to have the CB double the rail without a collision with an OB, a masse shot would need to be executed. This leads me to think that the CB's behavior changes when it collides with an OB.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if I were to shoot the CB into the rail with follow, it doesn't "double the rail", but if I hit an OB near the rail with follow, it does double the rail.
So, my concern is how/why the CB's behavior changes when colliding with a OB near the rail.

The difference is that the OB kills the CB's forward momentum so it's carried forward afterward by just the forward spin that remains. The (largely unreduced) forward spin can then overcome the dramatically reduced rebound velocity.

This is similar to a masse because a masse avoids forward velocity by shooting downward.

pj
chgo

 

[okinawa77]

Understood

The difference is that the OB kills the CB's forward momentum so it's carried forward afterward by just the forward spin that remains. The (largely unreduced) forward spin can then overcome the dramatically reduced rebound velocity.

This is similar to a masse because a masse avoids forward velocity by shooting downward.

pj
chgo

Thanks PJ.
What you've said makes a lot of sense.
I, now, have a clearer understanding of what is happening with the CB.

 

[td873]

[...]if I were to shoot the CB into the rail with follow, it doesn't "double the rail", but if I hit an OB near the rail with follow, it does double the rail.

No offense, but it will - and can double the rail. The key is the amount of force the cue ball relative to the amount of spin it has. The object ball removes most of the speed, but virtually none of the spin.

That is, if you shoot straight at the rail with top, the speed of the cue ball will be too great for the spin to force it to double. In your example, however, the CB hits the OB and loses most of its speed - and then it travels towards the rail. The amount of spin is high, but the amount of movement is low. This enables the cue ball to hit the rail at a slow speed such that the spin can take over. You can replicate this, as you indicated with the masse shot - which pushes the CB into the rail at a slow speed with lots of spin.

If you changed the angle of your shot (hitting thinner), with the same exact stroke and speed, the cue ball would not double the rail because it would hit the rail with so much speed that the spin could not bring it back to the rail.

Lastly, if you shoot this shot hitting the cue ball almost full in the face, you can achieve top-stop. It is a matter of spin vs "speed."

-td