Juuuuuust curious

C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I've never played carom billiards at all, the closest I've come is English Billiards. I would love to take up straight rail, 3 cushion or otherwise, but there isn't a table anywhere that I know of.

So for those of you who do play 3 cushion, and can/have made runs over 10, do you guys recognize routine positions and just play them the same way everytime? Or do you have to calculate it all out again everytime because few two positions are ever very similar?

When I watch it, the players seem like they have to figure out the angles over and over again as though they've never seen that shot before. Except Blomdahl and Sayginer, they seem to know what to do.

Like I mentioned English Billiards is my only experience. I'm not very good and rarely ever play it, but I can and do make two cushion billiards consistentlyish, rarely do I try for more as there usually is another option. But I tend to work it all out ahead of time. I never play shots automatically like I might playing snooker or pool.

Oh yeah, and why do they take so many practice strokes?

And if anyone knows of billiards tables near ottawa, please let me know.
 
Cameron

I'll stick my neck out and try to respond. I've never had a 10 or 9, 11 12. I do have 2 13's and countless 8 and below. So hope I qualify.

I was just in Dubuque this week and played a couple of games with Bob Byrne. We had a related discussion. The top players take longer to shoot a shot than the rest of us. Walt Harris has a spread sheet in one of his Billiard Atlas books on this topic. Bangers take 5 seconds and pros take 45 seconds to shoot. Or something of that order.

Here's the conclusion. Top players are expert at position play. They concentrate mostly on placing the first OB. Sometimes but rarely on which side of the second OB to hit. This is where the extra time comes in. Calculating the required hit to get good placement and adjusting the english and speed to make the shot with a decent chance for the next. Simply calculating the OB1 and OB2 numbers and taking a shot according to a system, doesn't consider position and kiss avoidance among other things. All this and more is why they take so much time and practice strokes. They must be exactly precise when sending an OB 3 -6 rails and more and the CB 3 - 9 rails to make point and continue the run.

I don't get involved with the argument that this game is harder than the others. I feel that at the top levels all games are equally hard. Its extremely difficult to achieve 147 in snooker or run 200 balls in straight pool or 15 racks of 9 ball.... But Generaly speaking, in the pocket games the hit is defined by the angle to pocket the ball. With most shots there's not much you can do to change the required hit. On the other hand 3C you can make a shot using numerous hits. With the pocket games and again generally speaking, position play is simpler since the CB normally doesn't need to travel nearly as far as in 3C. Certainly there are exceptions to this statement in both disciplines.

The reason this game and all cue sports is so fantastic is the more we learn the more complicated it gets. Learning never ends for those that pay attention.
 
Good question and an excellent response.

A few additional observations.

The weak player often studies the position only long enough to find one solution, whereas the strong player might seek three or more scoring patterns. (Many times one could shoot off either side of either object ball.) The strong player may see several possibilities immediately but must still weigh the multiple options taking into consideration margins of error, position, kisses, and safety, and then choose the right mixture of hit, speed, and spin.

As for "recognize routine positions and just play them the same way everytime", the answer is yes and no. There are routine positions which are played virtually the same way every time. However, it is often the case that moving one ball by as little as a few centimeters can completely change what is even possible.

With respect to multiple practice strokes, when executing the final stroke tip position on the cue ball must be extremely precise. A millimeter of error in tip contact can result in a foot or more error after three cushions.

Mark
 
I'm not the world's strongest 3 cushion player but did practice at least 10 hours a week for three years, and I spent most of 2008 and 09 playing english billiards overseas, so although I'm not a good player I can at least compare the games intelligently.

I feel that shot selection differs between the two in that English billiards players strive for a 'perfect' way of shooting, in the sense that from a given position you are always moving towards an ideal, or a 'right' or 'correct' shot (ex. in-off the red into the side to bring that ball back in front of the pocket again, or gathering shots until you can make your way down for a continued rail nurse).

Three cushion strikes me as so much more possessed of infinite possibilities and, inversely, the inability to take something like a rail nurse and use it to dominate indefinitely. I suppose the closest one could come would be to perfect the natural and try to make it over and over, which will never happen.

In other words, it might make more sense to ask if english billiards and straight rail require similar trains of thought, as they both have that ace in the hole of the rail nurse. EB and 3 cushion are such different animals that, at least to me, it seems to much of an apples / oranges comparison.
 
HomeBrewer said:
I'm not the world's strongest 3 cushion player but did practice at least 10 hours a week for three years, and I spent most of 2008 and 09 playing english billiards overseas, so although I'm not a good player I can at least compare the games intelligently.

I feel that shot selection differs between the two in that English billiards players strive for a 'perfect' way of shooting, in the sense that from a given position you are always moving towards an ideal, or a 'right' or 'correct' shot (ex. in-off the red into the side to bring that ball back in front of the pocket again, or gathering shots until you can make your way down for a continued rail nurse).

Three cushion strikes me as so much more possessed of infinite possibilities and, inversely, the inability to take something like a rail nurse and use it to dominate indefinitely. I suppose the closest one could come would be to perfect the natural and try to make it over and over, which will never happen.

In other words, it might make more sense to ask if english billiards and straight rail require similar trains of thought, as they both have that ace in the hole of the rail nurse. EB and 3 cushion are such different animals that, at least to me, it seems to much of an apples / oranges comparison.
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I understand, and agree. I wasn't actually trying to compare them, more just giving a base line for my experience to show where I'm coming from. My point was that I have a good idea how the balls react to eachother so I can make caroms consistently, but I have no control over the balls and I have limited understanding of how the ball will react off the cushions, or at least in comparison to three cushion players. And let me re-iterate, I'm a weak EB player, my high break is only 53.

I really enjoy the insight. Anyone who wants to reply is welcome, I only meant by high run of 10 was that I am also interested in the insight from players of the 1.5 or even 2 average, if there are any on this forum.

I was watching some matches of Blomdahl and the guy just blows my mind. Especially those bank shots. Could you ever hook that guy in 9 ball? Gawd.
 
Cameron Smith said:
I really enjoy the insight. Anyone who wants to reply is welcome, I only meant by high run of 10 was that I am also interested in the insight from players of the 1.5 or even 2 average, if there are any on this forum.
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there's a few out there. I'm not one of them :)
 
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