Last Balabushka made

[JimBo]

i dont understand why jimbo would call me names, if he doesnt want to answer my questions maybee he should not reply to them!!!

boy i would love to see some pics of jimbos cues he must have a realy nice collection of one of a kind truely original designs?????

or maybee hes afraid of the same abuse...

or that some one might copy them...

I didn't see anything in any of what I posted that would lead anyone to believe I own any cues, I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion. I don't have to own or collect anything to think that stealing designs is wrong. As far as calling you names I think if you go back and read what you wrote it's easy to see that not much thought went into it or you're not that educated.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

I don't know if Grady Coker actually advertise them as Southwest look alikes. He doesn't have a website for Coker Cues and I've never met him in person. The Southwest comparison probably was started by cue sellers. I think its more of a marketing tool more than anything. The truth is that the majority (I would say 80%+) of Coker's cues bear no significant resemblance to any of the SW Designs. If you take a ordinary 6 point Coker and a 6 point SW and compare them side by side, I don't think anybody can say that there is a significant resemblance between the 2 cues. The joint pin's different, taper's different, ring design's different, and sw band's missing on Cokers. Where else can you really point a finger on? I really can't find anything significant to call them knockoffs. I don't know why Jimbo's having such a hate-on with Cokers. Even if a small portion of Coker's earlier works in the mid nineties are SW inspired, there is really no reason to call them knockoffs because the great majority of their more recent works do not resemble SWs anymore.

I don't know how they advertise them either, or why they build the cues the way they do. I do know that if I were a small company and I was looking to bust into the business I might try to emulate one of the biggest custom cue companies in the country. I als know that if I did an E-bay search for Coker cues 95% of them would mention Southwest Style or SW some where in the description, is this all a coincidence? Do you think I am the one who made this comparison up?? You keep saying they are nothing like each other yet everyone on e-bay seems to write the opposite of what you believe. Sure the rings are a bit different, but to say the pin and taper are different?? Come on, from 12 feet away if a guy is shooting with a cue and you think you can see the pin or taper you're crazy, and the rings would look the same. Again you can be mad at me and claim that it's all in my head but I think more people seem to agree with me on this issue and I only brought them up because someone asked about other cuemakers known for this type of design inadequacies.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

why don't you contact Bob yourself you idiot and ask him why he made the cue? ask him if I asked him to make it! you won't do this because you'll be the one looking like an ass!

I'll look like an ass??? If I were to talk to him I would tell him that I think he's a great up and coming cue maker and that I have heard nothing but good about him and the hit and construction of his cues. I would tell him that I feel making copies and stealing other cue makers designs (dead or alive) is wrong and I don't think he should have done it. Then I would tell him that if all that I have heard about him is true I am sure he had the talent to do things that people would love and consider to be his own designs. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the customer wants the artist needs to do the right thing and stealing just isn't it.

Jim

 

[SplicedPoints]

I seriously cannot see why you have such a hate-on with Coker cues. Let me break down your arguments 1 by 1.

1) The thing about your research on ebay- Was any of the sales done by Coker themselves? I don't think so. Were they don't by people trying to sell Cokers? Yes. Is it easier to sell a cue if you reference them to SW, yes. It just a marketing method. Its a COMMON marketing method. No need to call them knockoffs because of this, especially if you have no proof that Grady actually advertise their cues like that.

2) Rings are "a bit different" - are you kidding me? They can't be more different. Let's take 2 sales on Ebay right now with pictures and compare the ring styles.
a) SW: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7113565057&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT
b) Coker: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7114368206&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

As you can see. Their rings styles are very different. As you can also see, Cokers share no significant resemblance with SWs. If in your opion they do, please tell me where.

3) A guy standing from 12 feet can't tell the difference - I am pretty positive I can tell which is a Coker and which is SW if you put me 12 feet away from them. I am pretty positive that anybody who knows enough about cues can see the many differences the two desings have.

4) If i'm following your logic correctly, it would be a knock off of SW to make a cue that uses a phenolic joint, wood rings, 6 alternative heigh points, and no inlays in the buttsleeve? That's a pretty broad range of cues to be called knockoffs and very unfair to anybody who made those styles of cues before SWs and after SWs made a name for themselves.

 

[JimBo]

This is all bunk. Someone needs to step down from his soap box and get a life.
Joe

Joe you need to pipe down, if you read the first thread (the one since deleted) you would know what started this was an exact copy of a Balabushka design. Now before you go on running your mouth and looking stupid let me remind you of how much you flipped when a certain overseas company made a few cues from designs that they found at a certain web-site. Now not all those cues were exact copies, yet someone had a very large soap box at the time. Please lose the hypocritical attitude and step away from the computer, you are making yourself look bad. O wait maybe this is different because these people are custom makers, when they steal designs it's much better then those Asians. Could it have anything to do with you and your line of boti inspired cues turning up all over;-) Thanks for chiming in ole buddy.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

I seriously cannot see why you have such a hate-on with Coker cues. Let me break down your arguments 1 by 1.

Don't hate them at all, I can just see what they tried to do and did in my opinion.
1) The thing about your research on ebay- Was any of the sales done by Coker themselves? I don't think so. Were they don't by people trying to sell Cokers? Yes. Is it easier to sell a cue if you reference them to SW, yes. It just a marketing method. Its a COMMON marketing method. No need to call them knockoffs because of this, especially if you have no proof that Grady actually advertise their cues like that.

Can you prove that it wasn't done by them when they sold the cues to these people??? I doubt it, so please stop asking me for proof of the opposite. Fact is it's no stretch to see why everyone uses the term when trying to sell these cues, I am not the only one who see's this and if I were I'd reconsider my point of view. BTW I know the difference, yet I can see the similarities, you on the other seem to want to turn a blind eye to it. To each his own.
2) Rings are "a bit different" - are you kidding me? They can't be more different. Let's take 2 sales on Ebay right now with pictures and compare the ring styles.
a) SW: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7113565057&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT
b) Coker: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7114368206&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

The rings are too close for anyone to tell from 12 feet, they would be exact copies if you evened out the boxes in the SW. BTW it's easier to go with the equally spaced boxes coker uses, no matter how they are put on they are right, SW has to line theirs up.
As you can see. Their rings styles are very different. As you can also see, Cokers share no significant resemblance with SWs. If in your opion they do, please tell me where.

I just told you, SW has an offset box pattern, Coker is an equal one.
3) A guy standing from 12 feet can't tell the difference - I am pretty positive I can tell which is a Coker and which is SW if you put me 12 feet away from them. I am pretty positive that anybody who knows enough about cues can see the many differences the two desings have.

And I am sure 90% of people wouldn't know the difference and or they could point out many more things that make them similar.
4) If i'm following your logic correctly, it would be a knock off of SW to make a cue that uses a phenolic joint, wood rings, 6 alternative high points, and no inlays in the buttsleeve? That's a pretty broad range of cues to be called knockoffs and very unfair to anybody who made those styles of cues before SWs and after SWs made a name for themselves.

If I follow your words closely it seems that you think someone was making 3 hi 3 low, 6 point cues with w2w and big pins before SW started it, please show me a few examples of these cues. I'd like to see one cue that looked like this before 1980, don't worry I won't hold my breath.

Jim

 

[SplicedPoints]

If I follow your words closely it seems that you think someone was making 3 hi 3 low, 6 point cues with w2w and big pins before SW started it, please show me a few examples of these cues. I'd like to see one cue that looked like this before 1980, don't worry I won't hold my breath.

Jim

That's a very weak defense Jim. So according to you anybody who has ever made a cue with 3hi 3 low points with a wood to wood screw is a knockoff of SW. If i'm not mistaken, there were some Kersenbrocks from the early eighties with those type of construction. Again, you're being very unfair to any cue maker who started making spliced cues after SW became famous. Let's see who has done similar style cues: Bender, Black, Jim Buss, Blue Grass, Brick, Ariel Carmeli, Capone, Richard Chudy, Dayton, Dishaw, Josswest, Lambros, Mottey, McWorter, Omen, Padgett, Bob Runde, Samsara, Sherm, Szamboti, Tad, Thomas Wayne, and tons more. As you probably have noticed, I listed the cuemakers from picture section of the bluebook of cues. Alternating height points and wood screws is not what make SW styles. Its their rings and wood band in the buttsleeve. The alternative points and wood screw has become one of the standard designs in pool. Just like a 4 pointed cue with 4 veneers. So if anybody who has made a cue with 4 points and 4 vneers, would they be a knockoff of another cue maker? Would anybody who has ever made a butterfly point cue be a knock off of whoever started making butterfly points? I personally would say no to any of those questions.

 

[SplicedPoints]

BTW, alternative height points was nothing new to the industry by the time Jerry started making cues. If you look at the Ginacue at the bottom of the cover of the Blue Book of Cues 2nd edition, it has alternative height points. Although those points were done in silver, it still proves that alternative height points were nothing new. I bet Ernie might not have thought of the alternating height design himself. In fact, I don't even know why making alternating height points is a crime that deserves to get marked as "knockoffs".

EDIT: Also, I don't need to prove if Cokers advertised them as SW style cues. You assumed from the Ebay posts taht Cokers did. Its up to you to prove it, or don't bash somebody else's good name by accusing them so.

About the ring design: Let me get this straight. Ever since SW made the wood block rings famous, anybody else who decide to make a wood block ring, even ones that look (to me atleast) very different, like SWs and Cokers, will be called knockoffs. Come on. Your judgement was based on some very narrow-minded opinons.

 

[classiccues]

Joe you need to pipe down, if you read the first threat (the one since deleted) you would know what started this was an exact copy of a Balabushka design. Now before you go on running your mouth and looking stupid let me remind you of how much you flipped when a certain overseas company made a few cues from designs that they found at a certain web-site. Now not all those cues were exact copies, yet someone had a very large soap box at the time. Please lose the hypocritical attitude and step away from the computer, you are making yourself look bad. O wait maybe this is different because these people are custom makers, when they steal designs it's much better then those Asians. Could it have anything to do with you and your line of boti inspired cues turning up all over;-) Thanks for chiming in ole buddy.

Jim

Jim,
But anyone with 2 eyes could tell it wasn't an exact Bushka copy. No one here is being hypocritical , but we are now going from a one off copy to a LINE of cues. This isn't the same thing at all.

BTW whats your take on Timmy doing that line for Lucky... oh I missed that.

Joe

 

[Jon]

HEY, I've seen that somewheres... i'll find it and post it up and call you everything but what you are for it as well...

You'd better watch yourself...

The Fuzz is out...

Thanks,

Jon

 

[JimBo]

That's a very weak defense Jim. So according to you anybody who has ever made a cue with 3hi 3 low points with a wood to wood screw is a knockoff of SW. If i'm not mistaken, there were some Kersenbrocks from the early eighties with those type of construction. Again, you're being very unfair to any cue maker who started making spliced cues after SW became famous. Let's see who has done similar style cues: Bender, Black, Jim Buss, Blue Grass, Brick, Ariel Carmeli, Capone, Richard Chudy, Dayton, Dishaw, Josswest, Lambros, Mottey, McWorter, Omen, Padgett, Bob Runde, Samsara, Sherm, Szamboti, Tad, Thomas Wayne, and tons more. As you probably have noticed, I listed the cuemakers from picture section of the bluebook of cues. Alternating height points and wood screws is not what make SW styles. Its their rings and wood band in the buttsleeve. The alternative points and wood screw has become one of the standard designs in pool. Just like a 4 pointed cue with 4 veneers. So if anybody who has made a cue with 4 points and 4 vneers, would they be a knockoff of another cue maker? Would anybody who has ever made a butterfly point cue be a knock off of whoever started making butterfly points? I personally would say no to any of those questions.

I'm really sorry that you are to blinded by ignorance or too close to the situation to open your eyes, you can continue to argue with yourself if you'd like. It seems the only one you are really trying to convince is yourself. As I've said many times yet you seem to want to ignore it, if I am the only one who thinks the way I do then you shouldn't waste so much time trying to argue your point. I'm not sure if you've ever addressed it, but am I the only one you've ever run across who has mentioned this?? Maybe you can start e-mailing the people who all want to sell these SW style cues on e-bay, you can educate them as to why these are no way even close to looking like SW cues, I'm sure you'll get very far with them. Good luck.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

BTW, alternative height points was nothing new to the industry by the time Jerry started making cues. If you look at the Ginacue at the bottom of the cover of the Blue Book of Cues 2nd edition, it has alternative height points. Although those points were done in silver, it still proves that alternative height points were nothing new. I bet Ernie might not have thought of the alternating height design himself. In fact, I don't even know why making alternating height points is a crime that deserves to get marked as "knockoffs".

EDIT: Also, I don't need to prove if Cokers advertised them as SW style cues. You assumed from the Ebay posts taht Cokers did. Its up to you to prove it, or don't bash somebody else's good name by accusing them so.

About the ring design: Let me get this straight. Ever since SW made the wood block rings famous, anybody else who decide to make a wood block ring, even ones that look (to me atleast) very different, like SWs and Cokers, will be called knockoffs. Come on. Your judgement was based on some very narrow-minded opinons.

Am I the only one you've ever heard say that Coker cues are SW knockoffs????

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Jim,
But anyone with 2 eyes could tell it wasn't an exact Bushka copy. No one here is being hypocritical , but we are now going from a one off copy to a LINE of cues. This isn't the same thing at all.

BTW whats your take on Timmy doing that line for Lucky... oh I missed that.

Joe

1 cue or a line of cues doesn't make 1 bit of difference, the issue is design theft, I know you understand my point now the argument is just to save face. If you couldn't see that the cue was a design theft and the post explained perfectly that is was a direct copy then maybe all 4 of your eyes could use some checking. My take on Tim's cues is that they are not direct copies of any designs and if they were then the person who owned the originals OKed it. I also don't think that's any excuse to steal a design. But I believe those cues to be Bushka style cues and not exact copies. Also Lucky is not an easy man to say no to, as you know we are close personal friends and business partners, just ask him

Jim

 

[Fred Agnir]

This is all bunk. Someone needs to step down from his soap box and get a life. Why do people make "look a likes" ? Because thats what people like to BUY. A cuemaker should NOT turn down an order if someone likes a particular 4 point 3 veneer cue with pearl inlays,

It wasn't a 4-pt 3 veneer cue with MOP inlays.

Tell me you've never walked the aisles at Valley Forge and say to yourself, "ripoff" in a negative tone. "Did you see that Ginacue at XXXX booth?"

Tell me you've never once made a negative crack about Asian cuemakers stealing designs.

I think we can make analogies in other artistic endeavors. Tatttoos and songs come quickly to mind. Yeah, there are less than scrupulous artists that will go ahead and copy a picture of a custom piece (non flash) or a song lyric/lick, but many in the industry and fans in general will look down on it.

And to top it off, Duke started his thread by saying "have you guys seen the LAST BALABUSHKA?" Bad taste, all around, Joe.

Fred

 

[piglit]

MMMMM...Butterfly...

ioink!

-pigi

 

[classiccues]

It wasn't a 4-pt 3 veneer cue with MOP inlays.

Tell me you've never walked the aisles at Valley Forge and say to yourself, "ripoff" in a negative tone. "Did you see that Ginacue at XXXX booth?"

Tell me you've never once made a negative crack about Asian cuemakers stealing designs.

I think we can make analogies in other artistic endeavors. Tatttoos and songs come quickly to mind. Yeah, there are less than scrupulous artists that will go ahead and copy a picture of a custom piece (non flash) or a song lyric/lick, but many in the industry and fans in general will look down on it.

And to top it off, Duke started his thread by saying "have you guys seen the LAST BALABUSHKA?" Bad taste, all around, Joe.

Fred

I saw the cue. All the guy is guilty of is using a poor choice of words. His cue is a far cry from a "direct copy" and I believe he also said something about the cuemaker using a photo or something to that nature for the cue. Making the likelyhood of that being a "direct copy" even more of a misuse of the English language. Also cues very similar in design can be seen in the blue book and in the Encyclopedia as well as many other places.
Again.. its overblown. Thats it. He didn't copy the Celtic prince (not that anyone would want to anyways) its a copy of a cue thats been done 1000 times by many cuemakers.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

1 cue or a line of cues doesn't make 1 bit of difference, the issue is design theft, I know you understand my point now the argument is just to save face. If you couldn't see that the cue was a design theft and the post explained perfectly that is was a direct copy then maybe all 4 of your eyes could use some checking. My take on Tim's cues is that they are not direct copies of any designs and if they were then the person who owned the originals OKed it. I also don't think that's any excuse to steal a design. But I believe those cues to be Bushka style cues and not exact copies. Also Lucky is not an easy man to say no to, as you know we are close personal friends and business partners, just ask him

Jim

There was no issue of design theft.. the last Balabushka thread showed a DZ cue that was a similar cue in design and by no means even close to an exact copy. The only issue could be a poor choice of words by the person who posted the thread. The post was incorrect and a number of people who saw it, even made that distinction.
Wait a second.. so its ok for a cuemaker like Scruggs to make a copy if the current owner ok's it? How do you know DZ didn't have the same ok from the owner? Shouldn't it be an ok from the cuemaker? Hey its hard to say no to money, maybe more people should try it. BTW do you think Josephine Balabushka is getting any royalties from this "line" of cues that YOUR guy is helping to endorse? You wanna talk theft, put it where it belongs.

Joe

 

[SplicedPoints]

Good job Jimbo again with your weak defense. Let's count what kind of defenses you've came up with so far. a) You accused me of being a Coker reseller, which I'm not. b) You accused Coker of paddling their cues as SW knockoffs, which you have absolutely no proof of. c) You say that the Coker block rings are an attempted copy of SW block rings, which is a very far fetched accusation and quite unfair. 4) You basically said that Coker's a knockoff because they also make 6 alternating points with w2w screws, which is extremely unfair by any standards.

I'm not trying to be ignorant. I've listed the important design differences between a Coker and a SW. You've yet to respond to any of them with convincing arguments. Your weak arguments so far seems to be 1) Others can tell you where the similarities are 2) You're blind 3) Again, the ring comparison. 4) you can't tell the differences when you place them 15 feet away.

The last one is particularly weak. So what if someone can't tell the difference 15 feet away. I'm pretty sure I can and I"m pretty sure a lot of the people on here can also. That's not really a good argument anyways. Do you admire a cuemaker's work from 15 feet away? Don't think most people do that. You like to get up close and pick it up and study the details.

Maybe you're not the 1st to accuse them of being knockoffs. But we're not talking about who did it first. Are you just merely going along with the people you've heard calling them knockoffs? Seems like you're running out of defenses and starting to run for cover. Again, please think about how absurd your standards of "knockoffs" is. It sounds like you're calling any cue made with 6 alternating points, w2w joint, no inlays, wood rings, and phenolic joint a knockoff of SW.

To me, if a cue is using a SW design, the cue has to use similar ring style, 6 alternating height points, and a SW band. Unless I start to see all 3 things appearing on Cokers, I wouldn't call them for using a SW design.

 

[SplicedPoints]

I'm really sorry that you are to blinded by ignorance or too close to the situation to open your eyes, you can continue to argue with yourself if you'd like. It seems the only one you are really trying to convince is yourself. As I've said many times yet you seem to want to ignore it, if I am the only one who thinks the way I do then you shouldn't waste so much time trying to argue your point. I'm not sure if you've ever addressed it, but am I the only one you've ever run across who has mentioned this?? Maybe you can start e-mailing the people who all want to sell these SW style cues on e-bay, you can educate them as to why these are no way even close to looking like SW cues, I'm sure you'll get very far with them. Good luck.

Jim

Example of how you're running for cover. You first call me blind and ignorant. Then you call on the assistance of everybody who has ever called Cokers SW style cues. We've talked about it before. People do it because of a marketing tool, nothing more. They do resemblance SW in the way they use the points. But that's all the SW style I find. Ring design? Missing. SW band? Missing. Where else? Coker can't use the 6 points and can't use phenlic joints? Get real.

 

[SSach]

Looks like

Well I was browsing through ebay and noticed this Szamboti copy . I have no problem with it and would love to own it. Mottey has proved himself in my book and makes one hell of a cue.

I think a cuemaker that is inspired and utilizes styles that are out there should not raise a concern as long as they are not doing it to be decitful.

Jimbo, just out of curiosity who made the cue you play with? Do you have an pics you can post?