Last Balabushka made

JimBo said:
1 cue or a line of cues doesn't make 1 bit of difference, the issue is design theft, I know you understand my point now the argument is just to save face. If you couldn't see that the cue was a design theft and the post explained perfectly that is was a direct copy then maybe all 4 of your eyes could use some checking. My take on Tim's cues is that they are not direct copies of any designs and if they were then the person who owned the originals OKed it. I also don't think that's any excuse to steal a design. But I believe those cues to be Bushka style cues and not exact copies. Also Lucky is not an easy man to say no to, as you know we are close personal friends and business partners, just ask him :-)

Jim
so it's being said again! just because the other copies were made by tim scruggs and they are all personal friends then it's ok to copy original cues. why is timmy being defended while others are not? "if it was a direct copy, then the owners of the originals ok'd it?" would tim take the time and call all the owners of the originals? I think not. look...we all get the point. design theft is wrong but it has always and will always be done. there is nothing we can do about it like it or not. the point coming across (how I interpret what you're saying anyway) is that as long as it is someone like TIM SCRUGGS copying cues it's ok, but let someone lesser known do it and you complain about it. if you're really against it being done...let it be known for EVERY cue maker.
 
Also saw this cue.
James White: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7115260418&fromMakeTrack=true

I don't think this cue is a 'knockoff' either. Does it utilize all its designs from other cuemakers? You bet it does. Is James White trying to pass it off as a Szamboti? No he is not. (4 points with veneers, bushka rings, delrin buttcap, ivory joint, ebony buttsleeve). Is it tastefully done with playability and craftsmanship? I'm pretty sure it is. Therefore it is a Szamboti inspired design, not a knockoff. I love classic style cues with good spliced points and traditional style adornments. I would love to see other good cue makers continue the work left behind by greats such as Balabushka, Jerry Franklin, and Szamboti. But those that choose to do it don't deserve to be belittled by being called knockoffs.
 
classiccues said:
There was no issue of design theft.. the last Balabushka thread showed a DZ cue that was a similar cue in design and by no means even close to an exact copy. The only issue could be a poor choice of words by the person who posted the thread. The post was incorrect and a number of people who saw it, even made that distinction.
Wait a second.. so its ok for a cuemaker like Scruggs to make a copy if the current owner ok's it? How do you know DZ didn't have the same ok from the owner? Shouldn't it be an ok from the cuemaker? Hey its hard to say no to money, maybe more people should try it. BTW do you think Josephine Balabushka is getting any royalties from this "line" of cues that YOUR guy is helping to endorse? You wanna talk theft, put it where it belongs.

Joe
everyone here knows that I used a bad explanation for my balabushka copy. I apologize for all the problems that has caused. I meant no harm...just haven't seen any closer than this particular cue. I should not have described it in this manner. I agree. you have a very valid point "classiccues". I know TIM would not waste time talking to everyone whose cues he copied. I also don't know if my cuemaker asked the original owner but he has seen my cue and approved of the way it looks. I'm also sure that Josephine is getting nothing from Scruggs. Tim has a whole line of cues? you mean it's not just one? IF ANYONE HAS PICS OF THESE CUES, I'D LOVE TO SEE THEM. Jimbo...where do you draw the line??? BTW Jim...don't stick your head in the sand because the "discussion" isn't going your way!!!! yours truly, DUKE
 
duke@neo.rr.com said:
JimBo said:
Originally Posted by JimBo
1 cue or a line of cues doesn't make 1 bit of difference, the issue is design theft, I know you understand my point now the argument is just to save face. If you couldn't see that the cue was a design theft and the post explained perfectly that is was a direct copy then maybe all 4 of your eyes could use some checking. My take on Tim's cues is that they are not direct copies of any designs and if they were then the person who owned the originals OKed it. I also don't think that's any excuse to steal a design. But I believe those cues to be Bushka style cues and not exact copies. Also Lucky is not an easy man to say no to, as you know we are close personal friends and business partners, just ask him :-)

so it's being said again! just because the other copies were made by tim scruggs and they are all personal friends then it's ok to copy original cues. why is timmy being defended while others are not? "if it was a direct copy, then the owners of the originals ok'd it?" would tim take the time and call all the owners of the originals? I think not. look...we all get the point. design theft is wrong but it has always and will always be done. there is nothing we can do about it like it or not. the point coming across (how I interpret what you're saying anyway) is that as long as it is someone like TIM SCRUGGS copying cues it's ok, but let someone lesser known do it and you complain about it. if you're really against it being done...let it be known for EVERY cue maker.

Just wanted to bold-face something in JimBo's quotation since I think you may have overlooked it.

Fred
 
Misleading

Fred Agnir said:
Just wanted to bold-face something in JimBo's quotation since I think you may have overlooked it.

Fred
IN THE SAME THREAD, JIMBO SAYS THAT TIM MUST HAVE OK'D THE DESIGNS WITH THE OWNERS (AND THIS MADE IT OK TO HIM?). HE THEN SAYS THAT "THIS IS NO EXCUSE" DEFENDING HIS "NO COPY" POINT OF VIEW. THEN HE JUMPS BACK AND SAYS" LUCKY IS NOT AN EASY MAN TO SAY NO TO AS WE ARE ALL CLOSE FRIENDS AND BUSINESS PARTNERS" SO...MY QUESTION IS THIS: IS JIMBO GETTING SOMETHING FROM TIM'S LINE OF CUES BEING MADE? ALSO...WHY DOES HE DEFEND TIMMY, THEN SAY IT'S STILL WRONG, THEN DEFEND HIM AGAIN BY SAYING THAT LUCKY IS HARD TO SAY NO TO? HE NEEDS TO MAKE UP HIS MIND! MAYBE YOU DIDN'T SEE THIS PATTERN OF JUMPING SIDES IN HIS POST?
 
Wasted Points and Smileys

duke@neo.rr.com said:
IN THE SAME THREAD, JIMBO SAYS THAT TIM MUST HAVE OK'D THE DESIGNS WITH THE OWNERS (AND THIS MADE IT OK TO HIM?). HE THEN SAYS THAT "THIS IS NO EXCUSE" DEFENDING HIS "NO COPY" POINT OF VIEW.

It is clear that "this is no excuse" means that he doesn't condone it. End of story on that point. There is no flip flop.


THEN HE JUMPS BACK AND SAYS" LUCKY IS NOT AN EASY MAN TO SAY NO TO AS WE ARE ALL CLOSE FRIENDS AND BUSINESS PARTNERS"

It is further clear that in your blind rampage, you don't see the smiley emoticon. Read up on them. It'll make your heart rate slow down.

Fred <~~~ RIF
 
why does jimbo keep calling me names????

he still didnt answer my questions....

i guess he must be above them....

thats funny i didnt know "lucky" had any business partners?????
 
classiccues said:
I saw the cue. All the guy is guilty of is using a poor choice of words. His cue is a far cry from a "direct copy" and I believe he also said something about the cuemaker using a photo or something to that nature for the cue. Making the likelyhood of that being a "direct copy" even more of a misuse of the English language. Also cues very similar in design can be seen in the blue book and in the Encyclopedia as well as many other places.
Again.. its overblown. Thats it. He didn't copy the Celtic prince (not that anyone would want to anyways) its a copy of a cue thats been done 1000 times by many cuemakers.

Joe

The cue was a direct copy of the design, of course he didn't try to make a duplicate for counterfeit purposes. The point is design theft needs to end, maybe if a cue maker can't come up with his own designs then he doesn't have what it takes to be a cue maker, maybe he should stick to repair work. It's not misuse of any language it was made to be a copy and it was theft I am not commenting on if it was a good or bad copy. As far as the Celtic prince goes nobody could copy it, but that's not the issue, where do you draw the line on design theft? And if you want to admit it or not it's a Bushka design if it's been knocked off once or 100 times doesn't change the fact that it's wrong, didn't your Mom ever teach you 2 wrongs don't make a right??? And also I'm sticking behind my words that you are a complete hypocrite, because you flipped out when you saw the Asian knockoffs that you felt were stolen designs from Mark's cues, and those were much further from being copies then the cue in question. Once again I'll say stop talking you're looking foolish on this one.

Jim
 
JimBo said:
The cue was a direct copy of the design, of course he didn't try to make a duplicate for counterfeit purposes. The point is design theft needs to end, maybe if a cue maker can't come up with his own designs then he doesn't have what it takes to be a cue maker, maybe he should stick to repair work. It's not misuse of any language it was made to be a copy and it was theft I am not commenting on if it was a good or bad copy. As far as the Celtic prince goes nobody could copy it, but that's not the issue, where do you draw the line on design theft? And if you want to admit it or not it's a Bushka design if it's been knocked off once or 100 times doesn't change the fact that it's wrong, didn't your Mom ever teach you 2 wrongs don't make a right??? And also I'm sticking behind my words that you are a complete hypocrite, because you flipped out when you saw the Asian knockoffs that you felt were stolen designs from Mark's cues, and those were much further from being copies then the cue in question. Once again I'll say stop talking you're looking foolish on this one.

Jim

Jim,
Its wrong to YOU. So what.. it's not wrong to the many cuemakers that still make cues inspired by those cues. Its funny how you let someone you know and like, slide on some real thievery, yet you keep ranting here. The only hypocrite seems to be you in this thread. Then you flip flop and say its ok if the owner says it is. You got caught flip flopping and you should really be quiet. We all understand your position and it might be right to you, but to many others, they could care less. Let me say again, the asian copies were for a complete line of cues, owned in someones collection. Is it irritating, sure, but you know what, you learn to turn things into positives. Now they can be claimed to be the ORIGINAL masterpieces that were used to inspire a Hall of fame cue line.

Joe
 
SplicedPoints said:
Good job Jimbo again with your weak defense. Let's count what kind of defenses you've came up with so far. a) You accused me of being a Coker reseller, which I'm not. b) You accused Coker of paddling their cues as SW knockoffs, which you have absolutely no proof of. c) You say that the Coker block rings are an attempted copy of SW block rings, which is a very far fetched accusation and quite unfair. 4) You basically said that Coker's a knockoff because they also make 6 alternating points with w2w screws, which is extremely unfair by any standards.

I'm not sure what you are even reading, I'm not sure why you feel I am defending myself? I don't need to defend anything. Just because you have an agenda doesn't mean I have any need to defend myself, I'm not the one who doesn't have the originality to come up with my own designs. I didn't say Coker used the SW tag to sell their cues, yet it does seem odd that EVERYONE else seems to use it. Also you don't have any proof that they don't, the burden of proof is not mine here. I never said their rings were an attempt at a copy, what I said was they are much closer then you are saying they are, and the 6 alternating points is only one part stop dwelling on it.

I'm not trying to be ignorant. I've listed the important design differences between a Coker and a SW. You've yet to respond to any of them with convincing arguments. Your weak arguments so far seems to be 1) Others can tell you where the similarities are 2) You're blind 3) Again, the ring comparison. 4) you can't tell the differences when you place them 15 feet away.

If you're not trying then it must come natural, because you've basically said that the taper and the pin were part of the design, this seems to me to be clear proof that maybe you aren't on the same page as I am. I also didn't come up with any proof because you seem to be one of the only people who can't see they are knockoffs. It's not my job to convince you, I'm happy that you like Coker cues, I'm also happy that you want to turn a blind eye to the fact that it may or may not be one of their SW knockoffs. My guess is if you have one of the cues we are talking about you've been approached more then once while playing and heard the words Southwest come out of someone's mouth.

The last one is particularly weak. So what if someone can't tell the difference 15 feet away. I'm pretty sure I can and I"m pretty sure a lot of the people on here can also. That's not really a good argument anyways. Do you admire a cuemaker's work from 15 feet away? Don't think most people do that. You like to get up close and pick it up and study the details.

I admire cuemmakers who come up with nice designs. Different designs, cues that stand out and stand as their own. I enjoy a cue made by Samsara, or McWorter because I know that I can look at the cue and without seeing a name I can tell who made it. I can appreciate find design work from 20 feet or 2 inches. I admire people like Thomas Wayne or Edwin Reyes who make 1 of a kind works of art that never need to use the name of another cuemaker to be sold on E-bay, people who work hard to come up with a "look" that makes them stand apart from the hacks who just see what works and sells and then try to copy that and ride the coat tails.


Maybe you're not the 1st to accuse them of being knockoffs. But we're not talking about who did it first. Are you just merely going along with the people you've heard calling them knockoffs? Seems like you're running out of defenses and starting to run for cover. Again, please think about how absurd your standards of "knockoffs" is. It sounds like you're calling any cue made with 6 alternating points, w2w joint, no inlays, wood rings, and phenolic joint a knockoff of SW.

Maybe??? I'm not going along with anyone, all I'm doing is giving my opinion of someone's work and I might add that it's an opinion shared by many. You on the other hand think I need to defend myself? I disagree, I am in the majority and not only of on lookers, but of people who own them and try to sell them. I can check E-bay any day of the week and find 4-6 Coker cues for sale and almost every one mentions SW. You can turn the blind eye, but you my friend are in the minority. I doubt even the folks at Coker would try to put up the fight you are, I bet when asked they would admit to it and say it's a style they like and admire, but you can be the martyr and keep the fight alive.


To me, if a cue is using a SW design, the cue has to use similar ring style, 6 alternating height points, and a SW band. Unless I start to see all 3 things appearing on Cokers, I wouldn't call them for using a SW design.

That's good and that's your opinion, again I'll say I think you are in the minority. I am happy you like your cue, play with it and enjoy it. When you grow bored of it and want to move on I am sure you'll sell it and use the word Southwest to aid you in that venture. I'm not hear to convince you or change your opinion and I won't try, I suggest you take the same approach because it's an uphill fight for you to champion.

Jim
 
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SplicedPoints said:
Example of how you're running for cover. They do resemblance SW

They Do???? I thought they aren't even close, I thought everyone could tell that they aren't even anywhere near the same. How dare you flip flop on the issue. You better run for cover. Once more I'll ask you isn't this something you've heard before my post? Has anyone ever looked at your cue and made refrence to a Southwest? BTW from across a crowded room I can tell the difference, but that's not what we are talking about is it. Also are you serious that you really believe the only way a person mentions SW style is as a marketing tool??? I'm sure you'll avopid answering these questions, but don't worry, I think most here know the answers already.

Jim
 
SSach said:
Well I was browsing through ebay and noticed this Szamboti copy . I have no problem with it and would love to own it. Mottey has proved himself in my book and makes one hell of a cue.

I think a cuemaker that is inspired and utilizes styles that are out there should not raise a concern as long as they are not doing it to be decitful.

Jimbo, just out of curiosity who made the cue you play with? Do you have an pics you can post?

The cue is a stolen design, I think Paul is one of the top cuemakers out there today, but this isn't the type of thing he needs to do and it's wrong IMO. Paul has made some very nice cues over the years, but he has also copied many designs, he was caught not to long ago copying a very high end cue from one of today's living cuemakers, it caused a very large problem and was almost in litigation. Paul apologized and has promised to take the steps required to make it right. IMO it's very hypocritical to think one way on an issue yet change if the design is stolen from someone who has since died. Many people in this thread have been blinded by loyalty, I am not a hypocrite I see it the same way across the board and it has nothing to do with who the cue maker is or if he makes a great cue or a crappy cue, I stand behind my beliefs that stealing cue designs is WRONG.

As far as my cue goes it doesn't matter or impact my thoughts on cue design theft.

Jim
 
duke@neo.rr.com said:
so it's being said again! just because the other copies were made by tim scruggs and they are all personal friends then it's ok to copy original cues. why is timmy being defended while others are not? "if it was a direct copy, then the owners of the originals ok'd it?" would tim take the time and call all the owners of the originals? I think not. look...we all get the point. design theft is wrong but it has always and will always be done. there is nothing we can do about it like it or not. the point coming across (how I interpret what you're saying anyway) is that as long as it is someone like TIM SCRUGGS copying cues it's ok, but let someone lesser known do it and you complain about it. if you're really against it being done...let it be known for EVERY cue maker.

I'm not defending anyone doing it, it's wrong I can't say it enough. But I do see some gray areas and one would be Barry Szamboti doing copies of his fathers designs (BTW I believe he owns the design rights) or if a person owns the original cue, some might say he also owns the design (if it's a 1 of a kind or his own design) In the Scruggs case we are talking about Lucky who may very well own the original Bushkas and had Tim make copies so he could play with them while the originals sat in a safe somewhere. Again I am not defending Tim nor do I know if these cues were actual stolen designs or Bushka inspired cues. In the case of the cue we are talking about the cue was a copy of a famous cue (one of the last Bushkas) and it was not owned or made for the owner to my knowledge. I believe stealing designs is wrong, case closed, nobody is defending anyone for stealing on my end.

JIM
 
SplicedPoints said:
I love classic style cues with good spliced points and traditional style adornments. I would love to see other good cue makers continue the work left behind by greats such as Balabushka, Jerry Franklin, and Szamboti. But those that choose to do it don't deserve to be belittled by being called knockoffs.


I also love the classic look, and let me add that this will be my last reply to you unless you show the ability to read and understand the issue at hand. It has nothing to do with inspired cues, it has to do with design theft. You can make a great point that Coker cues are SW inspired, but you won't go down that road because you've already walked out on a thin limb trying to explain how they are nothing close to Southwest cues (you know what with the taper and pin being so different and then you have those rings that aren't even in the same ball park). You need to know some history about cues, you need to understand why so many of the cues back then looked the same, why they all used the same slotted diamonds. Maybe then you'd understand that early Joss, Scruggs, Black and others looked so much like Bushka and botis. I have no problem with cues inspired by these dead masters, but I do have a problem when someone says look at this copy of the last bushka made and then tries to back out of his statement. You seem to have your own agenda and if you would like to debate this further (with me) you'll have to prove that you understand the issue at hand.

Jim
 
merylane said:
why does jimbo keep calling me names????

If the shoe fits...

he still didnt answer my questions....

Did you ask one that needed an answer?

i guess he must be above them....

Not if it was relivant.

thats funny i didnt know "lucky" had any business partners?????

I said just ask him, his address is.. well I shouldn't give it out, but feel free to go to Ilovecues.com and ask him if JimBo is his North American partner, I think we'd all love to hear the response :-D

Jim
 
classiccues said:
Jim,
Its wrong to YOU. So what.. it's not wrong to the many cuemakers that still make cues inspired by those cues. Its funny how you let someone you know and like, slide on some real thievery, yet you keep ranting here. The only hypocrite seems to be you in this thread. Then you flip flop and say its ok if the owner says it is. You got caught flip flopping and you should really be quiet. We all understand your position and it might be right to you, but to many others, they could care less. Let me say again, the asian copies were for a complete line of cues, owned in someones collection. Is it irritating, sure, but you know what, you learn to turn things into positives. Now they can be claimed to be the ORIGINAL masterpieces that were used to inspire a Hall of fame cue line.

Joe

Joe it's not wrong to me, it's wrong and the proof is when you try to knock off a cue that is made by someone alive and willing to sue over it. A cue design is art, same as a song or a painting. Show me one post where I said it was OK to steal a design? I never flip flopped, I did say I see a few gray areas, but IMO it's still wrong. You missed a whole lot of what I've been saying, I said it's ok to barrow a few things to do a cue inspired by or a tribute to, but we are talking about direct design theft here and that is what I find wrong. As far as your bullshit about the asian line knockoffs go I'd tell you 2 reasons why Mark had no leg to stand on.
1) he owns the cues and not the designs, those are the cue makers and for legal reasons I'd guess that only the person who owned the design could sue.
2) They weren't exact copies, the asian makers were smart enough to change enough things to make it a tough fight in court.
Also you were outraged at the time and let's be honest it's not your place to be mad or do anything about it, but IMO it was dead wrong and there is no turning it into a positive in my book.

Jim
 
buddha162 said:
Hey I called it: 2 weeks!

-Roger
I'm glad you guys have nothing better to do than track my activity. are you really that bored guys? you don't have to buy it, nor do I want you to. find something else to do than worry about what everyone else does. you're pathetic!
 
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