League handicap methods: yuck

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the league I play we count 1 point per ball if you lose, and you get 10 pts. if you win, which is about as simple as it gets. Many leagues have much more complex handicapping systems. Why do this kind of thing at all? Would you really lose that much accuracy by simply recording wins & losses? My guess is that simply scoring a win as a 1 and a loss as a 0 would be extremely highly correlated with ball counts anyway. I seriously doubt you'd lose much accuracy.

I also think it distorts the game because you may go for points rather than the win. If you just need 4 balls to win, why bother breaking up the clustered 5th & 6th balls? Handicapping methods shouldn't reward balls made, when all the pool strategy advice tells us not to start making balls if we can't run all the way out.

Complex handicapping methods cause scoring problems, change the strategy of the game, and turn pool into bowling. Get rid of it.
 
In the league I play we count 1 point per ball if you lose, and you get 10 pts. if you win, which is about as simple as it gets. Many leagues have much more complex handicapping systems. Why do this kind of thing at all? Would you really lose that much accuracy by simply recording wins & losses? My guess is that simply scoring a win as a 1 and a loss as a 0 would be extremely highly correlated with ball counts anyway. I seriously doubt you'd lose much accuracy.

I also think it distorts the game because you may go for points rather than the win. If you just need 4 balls to win, why bother breaking up the clustered 5th & 6th balls? Handicapping methods shouldn't reward balls made, when all the pool strategy advice tells us not to start making balls if we can't run all the way out.

Complex handicapping methods cause scoring problems, change the strategy of the game, and turn pool into bowling. Get rid of it.

It isn't about simplicity or going for the win, just as McDonald's isn't about putting out a high quality meal. The way that APA in particular creates their handicap is to get the masses more involved in a game where they may not have as much of a chance. It isn't about "fairness" or any of that other garbage, it's about marketing your service(the league) to a greater number of people. Most people out there are not "pool players" and that's what they cater to and apparently do a pretty good job of it. I primarily play APA and I still enjoy it. It's this kind of elitism that the game can do without.
 
In the leagues i have played, they keep track of balls made so they can pay back the players for each ball made.
 
In the league I play we count 1 point per ball if you lose, and you get 10 pts. [...]

Complex handicapping methods cause scoring problems, change the strategy of the game, and turn pool into bowling. Get rid of it.

This isn't a handicapping scheme. It is a match scoring scheme. I agree it distorts 8-ball strategy somewhat. But there are good reasons to do it in league match format.

Competitive drama

Many league matches are scored by four-game or five-game "rounds," and during the games everybody is looking at the score to see who is going to win the round. The points approach you describe is more likely to make the last game of the round matter, and thus there is more likely to be a dramatic situation every twenty minutes or so.

I think the occasional distortion of 8-ball strategy is made up for and then some by adding the things that make league fun.
 
I played APA 8&9-ball. The rules on them were catering to the new or non players (as previously stated) I switched to TAP 8-ball and found it to be more competitive. Call your ball and pocket, not hit your ball and slop counts.

Maybe switch leagues until you find the one for you?
 
This isn't a handicapping scheme. It is a match scoring scheme. I agree it distorts 8-ball strategy somewhat. But there are good reasons to do it in league match format.

Competitive drama

Many league matches are scored by four-game or five-game "rounds," and during the games everybody is looking at the score to see who is going to win the round. The points approach you describe is more likely to make the last game of the round matter, and thus there is more likely to be a dramatic situation every twenty minutes or so.

I think the occasional distortion of 8-ball strategy is made up for and then some by adding the things that make league fun.
Yeah that makes sense. I know you have done some great work with your league and rating systems - and I think your rating system is just based on wins and losses, rather than balls made, right?

I still wonder, though, if a system could be devised that ignores balls made by the loser, but still uses sets within the matches to create that competitive drama.
 
In the league I play we count 1 point per ball if you lose, and you get 10 pts. if you win, which is about as simple as it gets. Many leagues have much more complex handicapping systems. Why do this kind of thing at all? Would you really lose that much accuracy by simply recording wins & losses? My guess is that simply scoring a win as a 1 and a loss as a 0 would be extremely highly correlated with ball counts anyway. I seriously doubt you'd lose much accuracy.

I also think it distorts the game because you may go for points rather than the win. If you just need 4 balls to win, why bother breaking up the clustered 5th & 6th balls? Handicapping methods shouldn't reward balls made, when all the pool strategy advice tells us not to start making balls if we can't run all the way out.

Complex handicapping methods cause scoring problems, change the strategy of the game, and turn pool into bowling. Get rid of it.

BRussell:

The handicapping style you mention in your first paragraph is reminiscent of the one we used in the Boston Billiards' 8-ball leagues (which I used to run, in the now-defunct Danbury, CT branch of Boston Billiards). The intent of that system was couple-fold:

1. It gives a better idea of how each player performed in the match. For instance, if you see the match score "5 - 0", what are your thoughts? That one opponent ran over the other opponent? And if you thought that way, and based your handicapping mechanism on that, your computer (or spreadsheet, or software) would start manipulating skill levels right away -- like, "wow, so-and-so got run over, I'll have to immediately make an adjustment here for future matches." Likewise for the player that did the "running over." And that wouldn't be fair, would it? Especially if the score, yes, was 5 - 0, but each game was very close -- maybe even both players down to the 8-ball, playing a safety battle. In this case, if you show a ball count for each game in that match, it gives the handicapping a lot more information to base decisions off of.

2. It helps to curb sandbagging. Speaking from experience, one of the biggest problems we had at Boston Billiards, was APA players joining the league, using tactics and thinking they could "duff" the system with intentional losses, etc. The system we used at the time tracked not only how that person did with ball counts, etc., but also did predictive analysis against other players. The more the league went on, the more intelligent that predictive analysis became. And if a player performed w-a-y outside those predictions, it was flagged, and the league operator (me at the time) was called to clandestinely watch that player. Let's just say that more than one player was caught using sandbagging tactics, and either warned, or ejected from the league.

If you just recorded [W]ins and [L]osses, you're tossing valuable information in the trash, and just handicapped YOURSELF in being able to catch the above scenarios.

If you want to be purist about it, get rid of handicapping altogether. Because once you open that Pandora's Box, you have to open the lid all the way, otherwise, you're limiting yourself (as the TD/LO) in being able to accurately track performance.

-Sean
 
I also think it distorts the game because you may go for points rather than the win. If you just need 4 balls to win, why bother breaking up the clustered 5th & 6th balls? Handicapping methods shouldn't reward balls made, when all the pool strategy advice tells us not to start making balls if we can't run all the way out.

.

Folks only go for the points in the last game of the match, if they need x amount of points to win the round. Nothing wrong with that. The other team put themselves in the postion it did. Thus, at the same token, if the other team only needs 3 balls to win, you tell your guy, you need to break and run, anything else won't do ;) So, they go for it. that's kinda fun too.
 
This isn't a handicapping scheme. It is a match scoring scheme. I agree it distorts 8-ball strategy somewhat. But there are good reasons to do it in league match format.

Competitive drama

Many league matches are scored by four-game or five-game "rounds," and during the games everybody is looking at the score to see who is going to win the round. The points approach you describe is more likely to make the last game of the round matter, and thus there is more likely to be a dramatic situation every twenty minutes or so.

I think the occasional distortion of 8-ball strategy is made up for and then some by adding the things that make league fun.

i can see the benefits of both formats.

here are 2 situations i have come across in apa.

as you know apa 9 ball is points based just like bcapl 8 ball.

last year at the apa nationals our team was down 48-32 after 4 matches. i played the last match and faced another 5 . iirc he needed only 8 points for his team to win. not only did i have to go to 38 ..i had to hold him to less than 8 for us to win.

i won 38 to 4 giving us 20 points , winning the match 52-48. that was the most dramatic ...pressure packed match i have ever been in.

oh yea... in apa you get a skunk patch if you beat your opponent 20-0. when i went to turn the score sheet in i found out they did not have skunk patches at the nationals. my 1st ever skunk in 3 years of playing apa and it happened at the nationals no less and i did not get a patch lol. the lady at the desk where i turned the score sheet in said she had been working the nationals for 6 years and she had never seen a skunk happen there before.

now for drama and pressure just using win-loss in a match.

apa 8 ball. you get 3 points if you have a shut out. 2 points if you win with your opponent winning at least one rack. the loser gets no points unless he gets on the hill in the match which will give him 1 point.

now imagine you are down 2 points going into the 5th match. 4-4 race. you not only have to win the match you have to shut out your opponent 4-0 for your team to win. just winning the match with your opponent winning at least 1 rack results in a 2-0 score which results ina tie . the tie breaker will be who ever won 3 out of 5 matches. winning with your opponent getting on the hill means your team lost.

i can see having to get more points than your opponent in the last rack being pressure packed but having to shut your opponent out 4 times in a row is about as pressure packed and dramatic as it gets in my opinion.
 
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I have some good memories with the 10 point system.

Needing a 10-0 to win the round, taking the other more difficult group because you made one of them on the break and getting it done.

A soft break if the other guy needs a big win.

Playing in Vegas, down by 60 points after 12 games in a 25 game match, other team celebrating and agreeing to purchase our banquet tickets. We run some tables and need 5 balls on the last game with our number 5 player shooting. He gets the job done and the opponents are no longer interested in the tickets.

I love the chess game strategies that the 10 point system can bring up.
 
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