League Issue...Need Opinions ASAP

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
I am a member of a bar box womens league. I also captain a team, as some of you may know. Now this league is no affiliations with any national or regional associations. We are supposedly registered with the WA Secretary of State as a non-profit organization/association.

Recently an issue has arisen where a sponsor has filed a grievance against one of her own teams for moving a couple of games from the sponsor's location to an alternate location, with the agreement of the other teams involved to do so. I can't say as I blame them, as this particular location has had running issues with drugs being dealt out of there, fights, and most recently, a stabbing.
There really is nothing in the rules/by-laws that comes right out and states that the games could not have been moved. And there is really nothing in the rules/by-laws to supports a sponsor filing a grievance against her own team.

I sit on the Grievance Committee this year. The by-laws clearly state that the grievance must have been filed within 24 hours of the alleged offense. The alleged offense took place on the 1/19, the grievance was presented by reading a letter at a captains' meeting that took place on 1/22...not for the purpose of the grievance. The actual filing of the grievance was not filed until 1/24.
Here's the issue, according to the by-laws, there is no grievance, since it was not filed in the correct, timely manner. However, we have some women, who also sit the committee, who like to ignore the rules/by-laws and just levy justice as they see fit. They say it doesn't matter what the by-laws say, that's for the grievance committee to decide. I say that it is not so. The state is quite clear on the laws of operating a non-profit, and one of which states that the by-laws cannot be amended, altered, or revoked without a membership meeting, and involving 2/3rds vote, or a quorum.

I bring this up, as last year we had some issues where officers and the grievance committee levied a forfeiture of game against my team, when it was not involved in a grievance, but the opposing team was, and I was not notified of the forfeiture of the game, at all. I was denied the ability to file my own grievance. I pointed out that this was a clear violation of the by-laws/rules set down by the general membership, and the response was....well, they're not so much rules, but guidelines, and since the grievance committee's decision was binding, I was basically a$$ out.

Basically, it's a certain select few women who want to run the league as they see fit, and the elected officials and appointed committees are but puppets.

AS a result of this mentality, we have lost many teams from last year, and I suspect that we'll lose more as a result of this action. These same women are trying to say that by insisting that these by-laws/rules be followed, we are destroying the league. It's just a big mess.

My question is this....do I walk in, present my case, and ask that the grievance be stricken? Do I play the legal card, should they continue to insist on penalizing the team in question, and report the violation to the WA Secretary of State?

My basic feeling is, good, bad, or otherwise, these by-laws/rules were voted upon by the general membership of the league. I feel we are honor-bound to uphold those by-laws/rules, whether we agree with them or not. Additionally, IF I just kept my mouth shut, and let the penalties fall where they may....meaning a major forfeiture of games, ultimately involving 3 teams, I actually benefit greatly in the final standings for my division....puts me solidly in 2nd Place for the season.

I have everything to gain and nothing to lose if I say or do nothing......but it is NOT the right thing to do here.

Suggestions and/or opinions would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks!!!
Lisa
 
Please let me add that I have spent the better part of the day questioning members of the league NOT sitting the grievance, and they all agree that the by-laws should be followed. But these select few women simply don't care what the league wants.

Lisa
 
Lisa,

You haven't specified what power these women have that want to ignore the bylaws. I'll assume they are NOT elected leaders or committee appointees.

Way I see it YOU ARE in a leadership position....they aren't. You are in a tough spot. Talk to ALL OF THE ELECTED LEADERS and put it in their hands to handle. If they don't deal with the problem, THEN bring it to the attention of the players you've talked to and have things addressed at a players/leauge meeting. IF a meeting is necessary make sure you have your thoughts organized and a copy of the bylaws and the state laws on non-profits. I wouldn't go to the secretary of state. IF the secretary of state did ANYTHING it probably wouldn't be good for the league.

Terry
 
Tbeaux said:
Lisa,

You haven't specified what power these women have that want to ignore the bylaws. I'll assume they are NOT elected leaders or committee appointees.

Way I see it YOU ARE in a leadership position....they aren't. You are in a tough spot. Talk to ALL OF THE ELECTED LEADERS and put it in their hands to handle. If they don't deal with the problem, THEN bring it to the attention of the players you've talked to and have things addressed at a players/leauge meeting. IF a meeting is necessary make sure you have your thoughts organized and a copy of the bylaws and the state laws on non-profits. I wouldn't go to the secretary of state. IF the secretary of state did ANYTHING it probably wouldn't be good for the league.

Terry

Thanks Terry.
The problem is, some of them are also sitting the committee. They make sure that they do every year. But the state law is really clear about messing around with the by-laws by committee members. It's incredibly political, and the 'good ol' girls' network that I am taking on here.

I think the league is pretty done as it is...there are enough regular members that have had enough. And the by-laws are clear about filing a grievance. The problem is these women don't care what the league wants. It's all about what they want.

There have been several of us who are discussing just starting a new league next year....screw these old broads...most of them are related to each other anyway. And trust me, there are many more violations within this league concerning their non-profit status. I could really bring the whole thing crashing down around their ears. This has been going on for years, it's just gotten incredibly bad this year....and always at the end of the season, when it has a direct effect on the standings....with them usually benefiting.

Lisa
 
ridewiththewind said:
Thanks Terry.
The problem is, some of them are also sitting the committee. They make sure that they do every year. But the state law is really clear about messing around with the by-laws by committee members. It's incredibly political, and the 'good ol' girls' network that I am taking on here.

I think the league is pretty done as it is...there are enough regular members that have had enough. And the by-laws are clear about filing a grievance. The problem is these women don't care what the league wants. It's all about what they want.

There have been several of us who are discussing just starting a new league next year....screw these old broads...most of them are related to each other anyway. And trust me, there are many more violations within this league concerning their non-profit status. I could really bring the whole thing crashing down around their ears. This has been going on for years, it's just gotten incredibly bad this year....and always at the end of the season, when it has a direct effect on the standings....with them usually benefiting.

Lisa

Sounds to me like you see the writing on the wall. It also seems to me that you're not getting much support from people in leadership positions.:( They probably are afraid to stand up and rock the boat or just don't want the headache of fighting the "good ole girl network". I think it's a shame that you've let this get you upset.:( Guess thats what happens when you care. You can only do so much by yourself but it sounds like you have player support. Just do the things you can in the present environment and evaluate your position based on what if anything gets accomplished. If you decide to leave, and others are willing to join you and setup another league, then I'd consider approaching the secretary of state but only then. Wish I knew more about things like this so I could give you some really constructive advice.:o :(

Terry
 
Drugs?

Stabbings?

F that. My APA team just shot at a bar/crack house last Thursday, and believe me that nobody wanted to be there. The bathroom was the size a broom closet, and had two guys at all times in the "stall" doing lines. New dudes were coming in and out of the bar every few minutes, and the were clearly not there to drink.

I think you have to look at what the sponsor provides. Would you trade getting stabbed for a free drink or t-shirt? Not me, no thanks.
 
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I love to play pool. I don't think I could go a couple of weeks without playing but I would not play in that league given your description of it. Doesn't sound like it's worth all the trouble.

If I were you, I'd forget about it, play out your season and then quit that league. Start up your own if you want but don't go back to that insane situation.
 
Thanks so far, I really do appreciate the input. I just believe in following the rules. It is the only way to keep things fair across the board. And because I was appointed to the committee, I feel it's my duty to do what is in the best interest of the league members in general, not the chosen few who try to run it through deceit and intimidation.

Lisa
 
Lisa,

You do the right thing. It will always hold up. Next year, try a BCA league with Mark Avlon or something. Get the better bars to participate. Then you can move up to more competition at Regionals and Nationals. Good luck!

Linda
 
rackmsuckr said:
Lisa,

You do the right thing. It will always hold up. Next year, try a BCA league with Mark Avlon or something. Get the better bars to participate. Then you can move up to more competition at Regionals and Nationals. Good luck!

Linda


Thanks Linda, I just may do that...I think it's time. I got ahold of the secretary this evening and she didn't even know about the grievance committee hearing! She is so mad, that she says she is walking into it and resigning. The president says she will likely do the same. The treasurer is part of the "ol' girl" network, along with most of the grievance committee, save myself and one other.

I will say my piece. Should they choose to disregard, as I suspect they will, I too will resign from the grievance committee, since my vote will be moot(sp?). I'll finish out the season, but I, along with most of my team will not be back. And I have already heard rumors that there are other teams that will not be coming back next year, so the damage is basically done. It's sad really, as the league has been in existence here for over 30yrs.

Thanks for the support and suggestions to all. I'm thinking that my signature truly applies at the moment...Lol. ;)

Lisa
 
Lisa-

I suggest saving the resignations as a last resort. It is hard to build from scratch, and your league does have a long history.

Build your speech now, and present it with confidence. You might want to intro it with your love of the sport and friendships made, respect for the history and community of the league, and end the speech with a veiled threat of sorrowful but wholesale resignations and new beginnings.

I'm totally anal. I suggest a format that covers these topics (sorry if the outline form doesn't go through cleanly):

1. The grievance being a non issue.
A. Filed late, out of order
B. Other reasons you list in your post as why this is a non issue.

2. Why ignoring the bylaws is detrimental to the league
A. bylaws voted on by the members
B. Loss of confidence, respect, and trust when the powerful break rules

3. Even if the committee decides to hear the grievance, this is
not a legitimate grievance
A. Safety of the members is a fundamental concern and responsibility
B. No reason why changing location is prohibited
1. what if the place had burned down, rather than
someone was stabbed?

4. The ability of a sponsor to host a team is not THEM doing
YOU a favor- it is a priviledge granted to the location by the league.
A. Your teams bring business and feelings of community
to the location. They give you a promised, safe location
and maybe a free round of beer.
B. If the safety of the players is questioned, that
priviledge should be revoked.

Your league has the power here. You just have to take it.

If you cannot reach an agreement, or if the meeting does not go to your liking, and if you do decide to resign, a few scattered and incohesive resignations are less powerful than a formal, public letter signed by all resignees and officially lodged. Do it forcefully and publicly as a group. Make sure that all players/ members know the issues and understand the actions. And keep their e-contact info to keep them informed and to advertise your new league.
 
Suggestions

You have had good suggestions, but I would like to add a few more:
1) Rules of conduct or environmental standards for sponsors:
That sponsors will not condone or knowlingly permit local, state,
or federal laws being broken by patrons on the premises. Any
sponsor found in violation of that will have their sponsorship
subject to be revoked, and rules for revocation stated.
2) 24 hours is not adequate time for a grievance to be filed because
you do not know the reaction from incidents within that time.
It should be more like 5-10 days, somewhere in that range.
For a league to react properly, all the facts resulting from an incident
need to be presented, and 24 hours is too short for that.
3) If you have the 'best players' dissenting from the league committees,
you will have problems because these people are the engine that
makes the league go. Make sure your league members are satisfied
with the bylaws, and with the league operator within reason.
4) We had a VNEA league operator here with about 130 teams, but
was gradually stacking everything to benefit all the teams he shot
on, i.e., playoff tournaments, tournaments for paid Vegas trip There were questions about the league monies, and the league
operator would not permit an independent accounting firm to audit
his books. He worked for a company here that sponsored and
supported leagues, and he was quickly removed from his position
as a result of his refusal for an independent audit.
 
ridewiththewind said:
I am a member of a bar box womens league. I also captain a team, as some of you may know. Now this league is no affiliations with any national or regional associations. We are supposedly registered with the WA Secretary of State as a non-profit organization/association.

Recently an issue has arisen where a sponsor has filed a grievance against one of her own teams for moving a couple of games from the sponsor's location to an alternate location, with the agreement of the other teams involved to do so. I can't say as I blame them, as this particular location has had running issues with drugs being dealt out of there, fights, and most recently, a stabbing.
There really is nothing in the rules/by-laws that comes right out and states that the games could not have been moved. And there is really nothing in the rules/by-laws to supports a sponsor filing a grievance against her own team.

I sit on the Grievance Committee this year. The by-laws clearly state that the grievance must have been filed within 24 hours of the alleged offense. The alleged offense took place on the 1/19, the grievance was presented by reading a letter at a captains' meeting that took place on 1/22...not for the purpose of the grievance. The actual filing of the grievance was not filed until 1/24.
Here's the issue, according to the by-laws, there is no grievance, since it was not filed in the correct, timely manner. However, we have some women, who also sit the committee, who like to ignore the rules/by-laws and just levy justice as they see fit. They say it doesn't matter what the by-laws say, that's for the grievance committee to decide. I say that it is not so. The state is quite clear on the laws of operating a non-profit, and one of which states that the by-laws cannot be amended, altered, or revoked without a membership meeting, and involving 2/3rds vote, or a quorum.

I bring this up, as last year we had some issues where officers and the grievance committee levied a forfeiture of game against my team, when it was not involved in a grievance, but the opposing team was, and I was not notified of the forfeiture of the game, at all. I was denied the ability to file my own grievance. I pointed out that this was a clear violation of the by-laws/rules set down by the general membership, and the response was....well, they're not so much rules, but guidelines, and since the grievance committee's decision was binding, I was basically a$$ out.

Basically, it's a certain select few women who want to run the league as they see fit, and the elected officials and appointed committees are but puppets.

AS a result of this mentality, we have lost many teams from last year, and I suspect that we'll lose more as a result of this action. These same women are trying to say that by insisting that these by-laws/rules be followed, we are destroying the league. It's just a big mess.

My question is this....do I walk in, present my case, and ask that the grievance be stricken? Do I play the legal card, should they continue to insist on penalizing the team in question, and report the violation to the WA Secretary of State?

My basic feeling is, good, bad, or otherwise, these by-laws/rules were voted upon by the general membership of the league. I feel we are honor-bound to uphold those by-laws/rules, whether we agree with them or not. Additionally, IF I just kept my mouth shut, and let the penalties fall where they may....meaning a major forfeiture of games, ultimately involving 3 teams, I actually benefit greatly in the final standings for my division....puts me solidly in 2nd Place for the season.

I have everything to gain and nothing to lose if I say or do nothing......but it is NOT the right thing to do here.

Suggestions and/or opinions would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks!!!
Lisa

Uh, is Mr. Wilson on the grievance committee?
Purdman
 
Robert's Rules of Disorder

Lisa,
Gee I thought we had it bad in our league. What a mess. I believe that Blah-Blah has the right approach (see earlier thread). I would add only a couple of things....

Aside from preparing your presentation in advance, I would get my ducks in a row w/ my allies - as blah blah noted, a single resignation (yours) doesn't signify much. A letter indicating membersip's desire to see the rules of their own organization followed properly by the elected leeadership and signed by a number of known members / officers could be very effective. It doen't have to be a letter of resignation, but could contain language to the effect that an organization that does not follow it's own rules "cannnot long endure."

When faced with what seems to be a semi-unpredictable situation like this upcoming meeting, I've found that a decision-tree type guide can help. You make yourr pitch, they react either positively or negatively - so plan out what you say/do for each possible outcome. Then, you do the same for the your second stage, and its possible reactions, and so on. It doesn't guarantee a "win" (and you well could lose) but you've got your bases covered, and you've thought out what you will do in advance, so you won't get caught up in reacting emotionally to the heat of battle - which can prove disasterous.

Best of luck to you.
 
The state of WA is involved???!!!....you're screwed.

When those few women try to change the rules, simply ask them this question: "You're violating the rules for a reason...care to share that with the rest of us?" That puts ALL of the pressure, bias, and responsibiltiy on them and off of you.

btw, I'd quit and join a real league if you can.

Jeff Livingston

Edit: Just found this story where Oprah asked that very question of someone...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/013006O.shtml

JL
 
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I agree with Snapshot9 on the "24 hrs is not enough" bit. That's an obnoxiously *short* amount of time for such a situation. Granted, there are a lot of people for whom "pool is life", but for your average league player, that's not the case - and those people aren't necessarily going to have the time to file a grievance in the time alloted, with enough info gathered to back it up. His recommendation of 5-10 days is much more sensible.

On the issue that started this article - that grievance in question was filed after the 24 hr deadline as set down in your by-laws - I suppose you should be asking yourselves what's more important - the letter of the law, or the goodwill of the players. There's "the law" and then there's "justice" - the two don't always walk the same path. You shouldn't just dismiss the issue because it came up "too late". I'd recommend resolving it in a fair and even manner - and then, address amending your by-laws to lengthen the filing deadline.

Another thing to keep in mind is, don't let all this get under your skin and blow your top. An old acquaintence of mine once said, "Tempers run highest when the stakes are lowest". In his case, he was referring to kennel clubs - where the people involved were so into politicking, backstabbing, having their own way, yelling/screaming/etc - over their *dogs*. Pool leagues are in that same class of organization - the people involved will sometimes go overboard, when in the Grand Scheme of Things, it's something that is terribly low priority when compared to what people have to deal with in everyday life (work, family, shelter, etc). Keep your perspective and stay cool.

Just my $.02. :)
 
Thanks to all. Those are great suggestions, and I will preint out a copy of the outlines provided to help me with my presentation of the facts.

I am figuring it will do no good, however. I found out that the secretary was not notified of the meeting, which is tonight, and she has a prior committment that she cannot reschedule. The treasurer is insisting that the meeting move forward. The by-laws are clear that "the committee shall consist of the President, Secretary, and Treasurer and at least four league members." The president is the one having the grievance filed against her, so her vote is out. And without the secretary there, well, the fix is in. One of the committee members is the sponsor's own mother, so there is a definite conflict of interest.

I'll state my case, and what it is doing to the league, since we lost fully half of membership from last year due to the corruption that lies within, and I suspect this may well be the final straw for many members. And then I will let the chips fall where they may. It's all I can do, and you're right, I cannot let this consume me.

Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions, y'all have been great!

Lisa
 
Purdman said:
Uh, is Mr. Wilson on the grievance committee?
Purdman


Ah, come on Purdman, you know there is nothing worse than a roomful of old, mean-spirited b#tch*$. :rolleyes:
And the funny thing is, they all call themselves "TarHeels" here and take great pride in that...most of the logging families here ancestors came from N. Carolina. Being a true Virginian, born and raised, I guess we were bound to butt heads...Lol.

Lisa
 
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4. The ability of a sponsor to host a team is not THEM doing
YOU a favor- it is a priviledge granted to the location by the league.
A. Your teams bring business and feelings of community
to the location. They give you a promised, safe location
and maybe a free round of beer.
B. If the safety of the players is questioned, that
priviledge should be revoked.


Ahh, this is one of the other issues. The sponsor in question, does not even have her own establishment! She had a offer last year to purchase the building her bar was in, she chose to vacation in Hawaii instead. The building was purchased by another tavern owner, and the sponsor was given a 30-day notice to vacate. (She had caused problems in the past with the tavern owner who purchased the building.) She vacated all right! She gutted the entire place, ripped out wiring, removed the actual bar completely, removed the door to the walk in coolers. She has action currently pending against her for the damages. Anyway, she is actually playing out of a tavern that she does not have a vested interest in, and is already currently sponsoring a team of their own.

This thing is like an onion, the more you peel back the layers, the uglier it gets.

Lisa
 
ridewiththewind said:
Ah, come on Purdman, you know there is nothing worse than a roomful of old, mean-spirited b#tch*$. :rolleyes:
And the funny thing is, they all call themselves "TarHeels" here and take great pride in that...most of the logging families here ancestors came from N. Carolina. Being a true Virginian, born and raised, I guess we were bound to butt heads...Lol.

Lisa

In that case you clearly need to import a few old yankee loggin' women from Maine so that you can join forces against them. :D I'll warn you though, they're a pretty tough lot.:D
 
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