Lexington, KY pool scene just got stiffed

[jalapus logan]

LOL! Good response.

People could do worse than to pay attention to your signature line.
Bogleheads rule! (edit) I retired at age 48...feel very fortunate to have participated in the greatest bull market of all time. Alas, few pool players consider the future.

Thanks. You are living proof that the strategy works. I hope to be in your position in the not too distant future.

 

[jalapus logan]

College doesn't necessarily make a fool of a man---but sometimes it sure helps.


LOL

True. All I can say to this is that we are the masters of our own destiny. Choose wisely.

 

[McKinneyMiner]

A friend of mine invited me to a Lexington pool room to see an exhibition from someone who was touring around under the name Fast Eddie (btw, does anyone happen to know who this might have been? This was perhaps in 1993).

My best guess is this was a guy that used to travel around doing exhibitions named Eddie Parker... He called himself "Fast Eddie" on his posters...

I'm pretty sure he was from here in Texas somewhere... San Antonio maybe...??

 

[cuesmith]

Well, I really don't want to be argumentative, so please don't take me that way. Having said that, I would suggest that while these events may not always (or as you say, ever) turn a profit, they certainly grab the attention of a potential new pool player. Let me relate to you my story.

I had never held a cue in my life or even been in a pool room before. A friend of mine invited me to a Lexington pool room to see an exhibition from someone who was touring around under the name Fast Eddie (btw, does anyone happen to know who this might have been? This was perhaps in 1993). Anyway, I marveled at the shots he executed, loved the show, and vowed to try the game myself because he made it look like fun. Guess what, it was.

Now, fast forward well over a decade and look at me, an avid fan and player. I have purchased several cues over the years, currently own two pool tables (Diamond 9' and valley bar box - life is great!), and have spend thousands in area rooms, going to tourneys, etc over those years. I am quite confident that other new players have had similar experiences. Getting new players like myself at one time has to be a success, no?

Cheers...

Sir, I too do not want to be argumentative. I really don't like being negative about anything pool related. I've also been a lifelong pool player. I've owned 2 pool rooms and a pool bar. I owned and operated a company that bought, sold, moved and repaired/recovered pool tables and have been making pool cues for over 30 years. Pool has been my life. It cost me at least one marriage, a nice home and much more that I could never quantify. I just want to be realistic and speak from my experiences. You didn't respond to my question regarding financing for pool rooms. Let me expound a little. I've been around the business most of my adult life. I've never known anyone who's been able to acquire a small business loan or bank financing to fund a pool room. I know dozens of very qualified people who tried but as soon as you mention the nature of your business you're out of luck! It's like there's some unwritten rule, or maybe it's written, I don't know but the banks will not even talk to you about financing a pool room. One friend of mine had been an executive vice president of a fortune 500 company who retired after 30 years. He had about half of what he needed in liquid funds and attempted to finance the rest. He just assumed that he would have no problem with the financing as he was good as gold. He'd already negotiated a lease, ordered pool tables and spent a good chunk of money preparing to open his business when he went to the bank. One he'd been doing business with for 30 years. He was turned down as soon as he told him what he planned to do. He ended up cashing in his retirement to fund his pool room which he regrets dearly! His pool room lasted about 8-10 years before he had to close it down. Most pool rooms are financed through family loans, people taking out loans putting their homes up as collateral or through other private means. 3 out of 4 small businesses fail and the rate for pool rooms is much higher than that. If you operate a pool room, it has to be a "labor of love" because it's not a good business decision. All you're doing is buying a job where you're likely to make less than your minimum wage employees. About the only chance you have is if you own the building and even then you'd do better to lease the space to some other retail business. Like I said, I really do not wish to sound negative, I'm just being realistic! I've been there and done that! I've tried all sorts of promotions and actually I did OK as long as I was willing to work 80-100 hours a week to interact with my customers. The customers liked me but life's too short to give it all to a pool room.

 

[Nick B]

Just to keep this in prospective. Unless I missed it what and how much would be the "investment" by the hall owner? Investing 10K (just throwing out a number) for almost zero return in the summer months would be prohibitive.

Nick

 

[jalapus logan]

Just to keep this in prospective. Unless I missed it what and how much would be the "investment" by the hall owner? Investing 10K (just throwing out a number) for almost zero return in the summer months would be prohibitive.

Nick

Well, I'll leave the details private, as it is Mr. Cantrill's business and not my own. However, I will say that it is a SMALL fraction of the sum you mentioned. Hell, I could have almost paid it myself out of pocket - ha ha.

 

[cuesmith]

Well, I'll leave the details private, as it is Mr. Cantrill's business and not my own. However, I will say that it is a SMALL fraction of the sum you mentioned. Hell, I could have almost paid it myself out of pocket - ha ha.

Well, there you go. Work out a deal with the pool room owner where you pay for the exhibition and in return receive the profits from the exhibition, over and above what he would have made without the gig. Try that a few times and see if you still have any pocket money. You may be on to something. You could work out a deal with Mark and travel around the country making all that profit.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound trite, but after 20 years running pool rooms and bars I've heard so many times how much money I could make if I just spent a few thousand here and there to promote things like this that I just can't help but to return the favor. But you could incorporate and start a completely new business in the pool industry. Who knows, I may be wrong and you could get rich doing it! I would actually hope so!

 

[cuesblues]

Having owned a couple of pool rooms, a pool bar and having tried some of these kind of things I have to say that while you see it as a great way to gain exposure and think the

pool room owners are shortsighted I think you just don't understand what it's like trying to run a pool room these days. If you went into one of these pool rooms this summer

you'd probably be nearly alone. The business drops off so much in the summer that you lose money for at least 5 months in the warm months then play "catch up" when the

whether cools off and you start showing a little profit. And that "minimal amount" you mentioned probably makes the difference in paying the rent or having such luxuries as

electricity, much less air conditioning! Everyone has ideas on how pool rooms can offer things for the public, their customers, but they never consider how someone is going to

pay for it! I hate to douse your hopes and ideas but someone has to tell the facts of the matter. Pool rooms are lucky if they can keep their doors open these days and most of

the customers are just looking for what they can get for free, or at a ridiculously low price. They sit around the pool rooms and do their best not to spend a dime! They complain

about the cost of table time, drinks and anything else they can think of to complain about. The pool room owner is always a moron who hasn't a clue how to run a business, in

their eyes. But none of them has the wherewithal or the ability to open a pool room themselves. I'm sorry, I don't mean to rant, but this is a subject near and dear to me. I've

been there and done that! You better appreciate your pool room owner! They are an endangered species!

I will never complain about paying table time again.
I've been sick since Saturday, too sick to go to the doctor, so to stay in stroke I've been shooting M & M peanuts into dinner rolls on my kitchen countertop.
I'm using a larger chocolate as the CB which is more like a mud ball, into the smaller green as the object ball.
With the correct speed you can get the green to spin and reverse before it goes off the edge.

If anyone is concerned about the cost of green fee's, you can try what I'm doing.
I can assure you that it is really ****ing boring.

Oh, blue Master chalk is working fine in this application

 

[mullyman]

I'm with Sherm on this one. In times like these tossing money out to do an exhibition isn't a smart move. I've never owned my own room but I've been going to them most of my life. Not only do I play, I watch. Sherm is 100% correct in saying that trying to get a dime out of a pool player is akin to squeezing water out of a rock. Everyone pisses and moans about anything that may take money out of their pocket.

Let's say the owner did pony up and invited them for the show. He would have to have a door charge, which everyone would complain about. On top of that, once that exhibition is over, people are going to return to their regular rooms. The thing I find most interesting is how the OP said it would draw people in. What people? The only people that are going to show up are pool players from around the area, that more than likely already know your room and have already decided that they play somewhere else. It would be one thing to put a sign out on the street saying "Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp Here This Sunday". Yeah, you'd draw in everyone and their brother. Put that same sign out there with "Buddy Hall and Nick Varner" and 99.9% of the population driving by that sign won't have a clue as to who these people are. Only the pool players are going to show up.

Someone mentioned that they were invited to go along with a friend and that's how they got interested in pool. I'm really glad that happened, seriously, but that scenario is far and few between. Even if the planets aligned the room owner could only pray to get one more new customer out of something like this......not to mention it being one more customer that is just going to end up pissing and moaning about everything and not spending a dime.

If pool was hugely popular and rooms were full all the time, yeah, you have the cash flow to do something like this. Now though, it's summer, the worst time for a pool room, and the country is in tough economic times. I don't think putting out a couple thousand for little to no return is wise.
MULLY

 

[Spantiznik]

Well guys, I tried to hook something up for our pool starved area, but to no availl. I had contacted bfdlad here on AZB and told him that it would be great if Lexington could be on his radar for one of his events. Mark responded and we tried to get something going with Buddy Hall and Nick Varner. That would have been real cool, as both are legendary players it would have been something of a homecoming.

Just didn't want to Quote your whole post. I have to agree with you about a pool room not wanting to have this type of exposure.

And with something like this, You could have contacted your local T.V and Radio stations to having something listed in their upcoming events. Most T.V and Radio stations have a free community posting during the news or at random times through out the day for a weeks time or more.

Just a thought, and another resource for wacky idea's !!

:grinning-moose:

 

[mullyman]

Just didn't want to Quote your whole post. I have to agree with you about a pool room not wanting to have this type of exposure.

And with something like this, You could have contacted your local T.V and Radio stations to having something listed in their upcoming events. Most T.V and Radio stations have a free community posting during the news or at random times through out the day for a weeks time or more.

Just a thought, and another resource for wacky idea's !!

:grinning-moose:

For people like us, seeing something like this advertised on the news would be a God send. We'd all be like "Yeah, I'm not missing that". But let's face reality, hardly any news stations are going to find any interest in it. Again, Buddy Hall and Nick Varner are huge names to us, the pool community, but outside of that they are unknown and no one cares one way or the other. And don't take that the wrong way, I think that is a sad, sad fact of this game. Until pro pool hits mainstream no one cares.
MULLY

 

[Spantiznik]

For people like us, seeing something like this advertised on the news would be a God send. We'd all be like "Yeah, I'm not missing that". But let's face reality, hardly any news stations are going to find any interest in it. Again, Buddy Hall and Nick Varner are huge names to us, the pool community, but outside of that they are unknown and no one cares one way or the other. And don't take that the wrong way, I think that is a sad, sad fact of this game. Until pro pool hits mainstream no one cares.
MULLY

Couldn't disagree with your post at all. But, lets just say that one of the news editors is a pool fan. Or one of the anchor has an interest, if they see this they might actually spark interest in the people who were thinking about playing. You might be surprised at some of the reactions, and even Radio stations are great for this. We have all heard radio stations going to events to help out with local stories / fund raisers / recreational actives. You just have to pull out a little imagination on how you can spark interest.

Lets keep the spark alive :grin:

 

[jalapus logan]

Someone mentioned that they were invited to go along with a friend and that's how they got interested in pool. I'm really glad that happened, seriously, but that scenario is far and few between.
MULLY

Well, that someone was me, the OP. I became interested in pool at one of these events and became an avid player for going on 15 years now. And I have disposable income too. Thousands of it over the years. I might just ask Danny, the owner of the now defunct Rack Club how much he would guess I spent at his joint over the years. I guess paying bread and butter type of clientele doesn't interest anyone anymore. To hell with it, I can always spend my scratch elsewhere.

 

[lorider]

i dont think there is any one reason that we have so many pool halls closing now a days , but i have a little insight as to why one is closing in my area at the end of this month.

1. he does no advertising. i lived here 15 years before i learned of it. the only way i found out about it was i started dating a girl that worked there.

2. his customer service skills could use a little improvement. i have known him for 5 years now and dont really think hes a bad guy but i have seen him kick people out with out a warning 1st and telling them to not come back.

3. the place could use some spricing up. imo everything from the carpet to table felt needs replacing.

4. no tvs,no video games , no nothing . has a radio on a country station.

5. he does have a grill and serves alchohal.

my current gf works there now and let me tell you a story. it was a slow night and the owner closes the kitchen about 2 hours before closing. a party of 4 come in wanting to play. they all order something to eat and the owner says he aint firing the grill back up. my gf asks the owner if she can fix them something and then she will clean up again. he said ok. they each gave her a 5.00 tip and asked what nights she worked . she told them and they said those are the only nights they will come because the owner and the other girl that works on my gf nights off are rude as hell.

the owner even stated to me that he does better on the nights that my gf works and that she always gets more tips than the other girl does. i go down and help out for free some evenings after work when my gf is working. i have offered to set up tournaments to bring in more biz. he said no. yet he is the only one in town doing bad enough to close and he wonders why.

 

[jalapus logan]

Well, there you go. Work out a deal with the pool room owner where you pay for the exhibition and in return receive the profits from the exhibition, over and above what he would have made without the gig. Try that a few times and see if you still have any pocket money. You may be on to something. You could work out a deal with Mark and travel around the country making all that profit.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound trite, but after 20 years running pool rooms and bars I've heard so many times how much money I could make if I just spent a few thousand here and there to promote things like this that I just can't help but to return the favor. But you could incorporate and start a completely new business in the pool industry. Who knows, I may be wrong and you could get rich doing it! I would actually hope so!

OK. You win. There is no future for pro pool players or their fans. Carry on...

 

[jalapus logan]

my current gf works there now and let me tell you a story. it was a slow night and the owner closes the kitchen about 2 hours before closing. a party of 4 come in wanting to play. they all order something to eat and the owner says he aint firing the grill back up. my gf asks the owner if she can fix them something and then she will clean up again. he said ok. they each gave her a 5.00 tip and asked what nights she worked . she told them and they said those are the only nights they will come because the owner and the other girl that works on my gf nights off are rude as hell.

the owner even stated to me that he does better on the nights that my gf works and that she always gets more tips than the other girl does. i go down and help out for free some evenings after work when my gf is working. i have offered to set up tournaments to bring in more biz. he said no. yet he is the only one in town doing bad enough to close and he wonders why.

Good story - it warrants repeating. I felt similarly disinclined to patronize the other pool room in town once the rack club closed and for similar reasons. Believe me, if you own a pool room, you want people like me in the joint. I, all alone probably paid all the utilities for the place for several years - ha ha.

 

[Otterman]

Inexperience and arrogance

Well, I don't teach, but I do work for a living in finance. But, what do I know? Yep, all that book learnin' just leads to bull sh$t like becoming wealthy, retiring early, etc. I ain't got no use for that sh$t...

I feel compelled to address these comments, as I have seen all sides of this situation. I have a business degree as well (with Honors). I'm a 20+ year banker, and 26+ year pool player. I've also had a friend who ran a pool hall for some time before it finally failed, and witnessed more other business failures than I care to recall in my banker capacity. I can tell you from experience, the vast majority of what you learned in college does not apply in the real world. Promotion is a great idea, particularly with Hall and Varner, but there's nearly zero chance it will be profitable, short term or long term. Pool hall owners aren't the best choice to finance promotions because their positive cash flow is typically too tight. They starve in mediocre times, make marginal profits in great times, and go bankrupt in bad times. These events should have corporate sponsorship, but Brunswick has apparently abandoned the pool players and few other organizations have the motivation or resources to fill the void. Face it: until the CEO's of Goldman Sachs quit golf and start playing pool, the resources for real quality promotion will not likely exist.

Sherm is correct that no competent banker will finance a pool hall, not from any social stygma, but because they are poor credit risks. The numerous closed facilities we're all familiar with proves that point. Even if the proprietor puts up a majority of the initial capital and the loan is well secured, it's STILL a losing proposition for the bank. The chance of default is high, and even if liquidating all the collateral gets the bank repaid, the wasted time and resources to accomplish this has cost the bank the opportunity to make other loans with better return profiles. For that matter, golf clubs/courses are horrible credit risks, as well as bowling alleys, for a variety of reasons I don't have time or desire to discuss here.

I'm happy you have a college education. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the sport of pool that we all share here. I know I'd be tickled pink to attend one of these events with 2 of the greatest our sport has ever known. Just please understand you're likely never going to get positive results by criticizing a proprietor's business strategy and touting your professor's teachings as your basis for it. Business Management Strategy and Marketing work a lot better when XYZ Corp is making widgets in the theoretical world of the classroom than when revenue is down and you're trying to keep the lights on in the real world.

 

[jalapus logan]

I feel compelled to address these comments, as I have seen all sides of this situation. I have a business degree as well (with Honors). I'm a 20+ year banker, and 26+ year pool player. I've also had a friend who ran a pool hall for some time before it finally failed, and witnessed more other business failures than I care to recall in my banker capacity. I can tell you from experience, the vast majority of what you learned in college does not apply in the real world. Promotion is a great idea, particularly with Hall and Varner, but there's nearly zero chance it will be profitable, short term or long term. Pool hall owners aren't the best choice to finance promotions because their positive cash flow is typically too tight. They starve in mediocre times, make marginal profits in great times, and go bankrupt in bad times. These events should have corporate sponsorship, but Brunswick has apparently abandoned the pool players and few other organizations have the motivation or resources to fill the void. Face it: until the CEO's of Goldman Sachs quit golf and start playing pool, the resources for real quality promotion will not likely exist.

Sherm is correct that no competent banker will finance a pool hall, not from any social stygma, but because they are poor credit risks. The numerous closed facilities we're all familiar with proves that point. Even if the proprietor puts up a majority of the initial capital and the loan is well secured, it's STILL a losing proposition for the bank. The chance of default is high, and even if liquidating all the collateral gets the bank repaid, the wasted time and resources to accomplish this has cost the bank the opportunity to make other loans with better return profiles. For that matter, golf clubs/courses are horrible credit risks, as well as bowling alleys, for a variety of reasons I don't have time or desire to discuss here.

I'm happy you have a college education. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the sport of pool that we all share here. I know I'd be tickled pink to attend one of these events with 2 of the greatest our sport has ever known. Just please understand you're likely never going to get positive results by criticizing a proprietor's business strategy and touting your professor's teachings as your basis for it. Business Management Strategy and Marketing work a lot better when XYZ Corp is making widgets in the theoretical world of the classroom than when revenue is down and you're trying to keep the lights on in the real world.

Firstly, let me say that I'm 34 years old and my school days are now a fading memory and the real world is what I've been operating in for quite a while now (of course, my college days sure seemed like the real world to me, as I worked a at least a part time job and throughout much of it held a full time postion in order to avoid student loans or any other form of debt - it worked - woot woot!). Anyway, I hope folks don't take me as being arrogant, though I understand why that would be. We are having a discussion over a digital medium and subtleties, expressions, and tonality are lost. Furthermore, I am rather tongue in cheek much of the time, as it is my own sense of humor, nothing more, and certainly no offence intended to anyone here.

Now, having said all of that, I understand what you guys are saying. I understand pool rooms face unusual business challenges. In fact, I got into the research phase of opening up my own room and was disinclined to pursue it further when the owner of the space I had inquired about leasing literally began to swear at me when I told him that I wanted to open an "upscale pool room". So, yes, the challenges are many. However, I truly believe that pool is a super fun game for many and that vision is required in order to take our sport somewhere, hopefully into the realm of profitability. Maybe I'm wrong, I admit that. Maybe their is no vision. Maybe pool really isn't all that fun to folks, although I've mostly seen players having a blast at the game, especially if it is their first time.

Also, perhaps it's just me, but I've never got anywhere with negativity. I admit that I can be negative at times, and I always try to shake it off because no good result has ever come from it.

Anyway, I really wish everyone the best, and I hope that folks understand that. I'd much rather build folks up and foster cooperation rather than become mired in negativity. That may sound somewhat hippi-like, but let me tell you something. I've been working with some hippie horticulturalists for the past 2 years and they sure walk around much happier than most. They don't focus much on the negative, don't worry too much about materialism, and seem to live just fine from what I've observed.

Anyway, cheers to all, as always...

 

[brandoncook26]

Good story - it warrants repeating. I felt similarly disinclined to patronize the other pool room in town once the rack club closed and for similar reasons. Believe me, if you own a pool room, you want people like me in the joint. I, all alone probably paid all the utilities for the place for several years - ha ha.

I agree, the "other" pool room sucks. The owners honestly made me want to be as cheap as possible, which is very sad. I am so glad we have a new room. It is not without fault, but is leaps and bounds better than the former.

That may sound somewhat hippi-like, but let me tell you something. I've been working with some hippie horticulturalists for the past 2 years and they sure walk around much happier than most.

Sorry, that makes me chuckle. Call me later sir and we will set up a game.

-Brandon

 

[Otterman]

Firstly, let me say that I'm 34 years old and my school days are now a fading memory and the real world is what I've been operating in for quite a while now (of course, my college days sure seemed like the real world to me, as I worked a at least a part time job and throughout much of it held a full time postion in order to avoid student loans or any other form of debt - it worked - woot woot!). Anyway, I hope folks don't take me as being arrogant, though I understand why that would be. We are having a discussion over a digital medium and subtleties, expressions, and tonality are lost. Furthermore, I am rather tongue in cheek much of the time, as it is my own sense of humor, nothing more, and certainly no offence intended to anyone here.

Now, having said all of that, I understand what you guys are saying. I understand pool rooms face unusual business challenges. In fact, I got into
the research phase of opening up my own room and was disinclined to
pursue it further when the owner of the space I had inquired about leasing
literally began to swear at me when I told him that I wanted to open an
"upscale pool room". So, yes, the challenges are many. However,
I truly believe that pool is a super fun game for many and that vision is required in order to take our sport somewhere, hopefully into the realm of
profitability. Maybe I'm wrong, I admit that. Maybe their is no vision.
Maybe pool really isn't all that fun to folks, although I've mostly seen
players having a blast at the game, especially if it is their first time.
Also, perhaps it's just me, but I've never got anywhere with negativity. I
admit that I can be negative at times, and I always try to shake it off
because no good result has ever come from it.
Anyway, I really wish everyone the best, and I hope that folks understand
that. I'd much rather build folks up and foster cooperation rather than
become mired in negativity. That may sound somewhat hippi-like, but let
me tell you something. I've been working with some hippie horticulturalists for the past 2 years and they sure walk around much happier than most. They don't focus much on the negative, don't worry too much about materialism, and seem to live just fine from what I've observed.

Anyway, cheers to all, as always...

No offense intended or taken, and your points and ideas are valid. I certainly wish most of the pool industry was capitalized better. The Buddy/Nick deal I'm sure wasn't costly in comparison to other sports (just tough on a struggling pool room owner). Pool is a wonderful sport, but somewhere along the way missed an opportunity to stay in the mainstream. Pool and billiard games were huge well into the pre-WWII era, and American football had little support. Sometimes much of the difference between something becoming a phenomenal success and fading into obscurity is determined by blind, dumb luck. Maybe our luck will change. Soccer had little U.S. interest not that long ago, and tennis had very little prize money into the early '70's.

Best to all........