Lift verses Warp

dirtvictim

Registered
What is the general consensus on lift versus warp when rolling out a cue. I see a lot of opinions that suggest lift as being something other than a warp. I read that if only the thickness of a dime in the center of a butt or shaft or less then it's lift.
I searched and didn't find anything discussed but maybe my search didn't pick up the posts.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have owned dozens of high end custom cues from some of the recognized very best cue makers. I have never ever seen a shaft roll perfectly flat from tip to joint- I mean perfectly flat- never. So, as a buyer, I screw the shaft to the butt, and I sight it like a rifle, one eye closed- and if it sights straight to my shooting eye - to me, the cue is straight enough that I could never use the cue as an excuse for a missed shot. At that point I am a buyer if I have interest in a cue. Your stroke being straight is much more important playing this game than having a cue that is "certified" 100% straight.
 

Chili Palmer

AzB Gold Member
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I think of it this way. Warp means the cue is not straight, lift means the tip or butt comes off the table due to the warp and shaft wobble means just the shaft is warped but the tip or joint end do not come off the table. Therefore, a shaft with lift means it's warped in a way the tip or joint end comes off the table.

Just my humble opinion.
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
I have owned dozens of high end custom cues from some of the recognized very best cue makers. I have never ever seen a shaft roll perfectly flat from tip to joint- I mean perfectly flat- never. So, as a buyer, I screw the shaft to the butt, and I sight it like a rifle, one eye closed- and if it sights straight to my shooting eye - to me, the cue is straight enough that I could never use the cue as an excuse for a missed shot. At that point I am a buyer if I have interest in a cue. Your stroke being straight is much more important playing this game than having a cue that is "certified" 100% straight.
You just haven't had real good shafts then. I have many cues that the shafts are dead straight,
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
I think of it this way. Warp means the cue is not straight, lift means the tip or butt comes off the table due to the warp and shaft wobble means just the shaft is warped but the tip or joint end do not come off the table. Therefore, a shaft with lift means it's warped in a way the tip or joint end comes off the table.

Just my humble opinion.
As for your description of the shafts, many call that a "taper roll" which it is not. It just means the wood moved and is now warped no matter how slightly it moved.
 

Chili Palmer

AzB Gold Member
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As for your description of the shafts, many call that a "taper roll" which it is not. It just means the wood moved and is now warped no matter how slightly it moved.


Ah, yes, I forgot that one, I had it in my head when I started typing the reply :)
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just a little food for thought. Lets say you have one of WC Fields cues.
If you have a decent PSR you know where the tip is gonna land. Or am I just full of it?

We're not talking about the cue below, we're talking about a couple millimeters in this discussion regarding cue straightness.
I think?

Ever check how straight your stroke is?
Bet it's not within one 10 thousandths




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mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You just haven't had real good shafts then. I have many cues that the shafts are dead straight,
I'll let you know when I find one. My list of owned cues includes, Richard Black, Tim Scruggs, Tascarella shafts, Robert Dzuricky, Andy Gilbert, Troy Downey, Skip Weston, Scott Gracio, Mike Capone, Bill Stroud - to name a few - many of the best of the best- I consider every one of those cues as straight cues. Some of them were bought from members on this site- I never argued straightness with any of them.

Again I will say that I will take a consistently straight stroke over a shaft that rolls PERFECTLY flat from tip to joint any day of the week. IMO way too much is made over cue shaft straightness- 99% of them are not perfectly straight. Even if they come out of a shop rolling perfectly flat- 99% will not stay that way forever.

I say just buy the best equipment one can afford and worry more about how you play than what you have in your hands. I've seen way more strokes that are far more crooked than the cue being stroked.
 

dirtvictim

Registered
So maybe a little lift shouldn't be called a warp. I recently saw a SW with a little lift sell at a rather high price which makes no sense if we are that anal about warp. I know that a little lift can be straightened in a butt or shaft so I don't see it being a big deal.
I think we need a consensus on a grading system for lift. Should be able to come up with a real standard we can use in general like they do for inclusions in gems. Just spitballing here using common items to measure, I've heard some of this before but not yet a dedicated grading system.
E-W-extreme warp. Tip, joint or bumper end come off table.
W-warp. Any lift beyond a nickel 2mm+ thickness gap.
H-L-high lift, ends stay on table at a nickel 2mm thickness gap.
M-L medium lift, ends stay on table at a dime 1.3mm thickness gap.
S-L Slight lift, ends on table at 8 dollar bills .9mm thickness gap.
VS-L very slight lift, ends stay on table at a 4 dollar bills .5mm thickness gap.
VVS-L very very slight lift, ends stay on table at 2 dollar bills .25mm thickness gap.
N-L no lift. Less than a dollar .1mm gap.
 

Brookeland Bill

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What is the general consensus on lift versus warp when rolling out a cue. I see a lot of opinions that suggest lift as being something other than a warp. I read that if only the thickness of a dime in the center of a butt or shaft or less then it's lift.
I searched and didn't find anything discussed but maybe my search didn't pick up the posts.
Years ago a road player told me after we played for several hours...

#1 Don’t try to make a living shooting pool unless you can walk into a pool hall and whip everyone’s butt with a house cue.

#2 Don’t look for the straightest cue, look for the cue with the best tip because a good tip on a warped cue will beat a straight cue with a bad tip any day.
 

dirtvictim

Registered
Years ago a road player told me after we played for several hours...

#1 Don’t try to make a living shooting pool unless you can walk into a pool hall and whip everyone’s butt with a house cue.

#2 Don’t look for the straightest cue, look for the cue with the best tip because a good tip on a warped cue will beat a straight cue with a bad tip any day.
My old mentor and life long friend told me if you can't beat everyone with a chalked mop handle then go back and practice more. He could and did it all the time for money.
RIP Bruce Allen Campbell the greatest unknown player.
 

fishermanOICUR1

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
If you really want to know about shaft straightness, have your cue maker/repairman turn it between centers. A few with be perfect, even after decades.
 

S.Vaskovskyi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You just haven't had real good shafts then. I have many cues that the shafts are dead straight,
Well...I'm just curious how much % straighter is your stroke with those perfectly straight shafts?
I've seen some almost perfectly straight shafts which I did not care at all when it comes to how they played and on the other hand I've played with some "ugly" shafts that hit so good... As a player I will always take a good hitting (performing) shaft over that "perfect thing" ... because my major interest is to play the game perfectly over to look at the shaft rolling perfectly straight.
When I build my cues I always try to build a great playing cue with the hit that stands out and of course I'm learning a lot about so many things ... I try my best to build a cue as close to perfectly straight as I can ... so as any cue-builder who knows what he's doing and does with some passion ... but to make the wood not having certain changes with time especially in all those conditions that change after it's built ... it's quite a task ... especially with the tendency and the preference of so many in modern pool to such a long pro-taper if talking just about shafts.
 
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CuesDirectly

AzB Gold Member
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Silver Member
ATTENTION ALL READERS.

Please visit the wonderful Cuemakers in the "Ask the Cuemaker Section."

We seem to agree that no taper roll is acceptable and I don't believe people with taper rolls should be the final say on this discussion.

Thanks, good day.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So maybe a little lift shouldn't be called a warp. I recently saw a SW with a little lift sell at a rather high price which makes no sense if we are that anal about warp. I know that a little lift can be straightened in a butt or shaft so I don't see it being a big deal.
I think we need a consensus on a grading system for lift. Should be able to come up with a real standard we can use in general like they do for inclusions in gems. Just spitballing here using common items to measure, I've heard some of this before but not yet a dedicated grading system.
E-W-extreme warp. Tip, joint or bumper end come off table.
W-warp. Any lift beyond a nickel 2mm+ thickness gap.
H-L-high lift, ends stay on table at a nickel 2mm thickness gap.
M-L medium lift, ends stay on table at a dime 1.3mm thickness gap.
S-L Slight lift, ends on table at 8 dollar bills .9mm thickness gap.
VS-L very slight lift, ends stay on table at a 4 dollar bills .5mm thickness gap.
VVS-L very very slight lift, ends stay on table at 2 dollar bills .25mm thickness gap.
N-L no lift. Less than a dollar .1mm gap.
Are we talking about BRAND NEW dollar bills that lie perfectly flat- or the ones in my wallet that have already been circulated for a year or more and do not lie even close to flat? I get where you are going with this and perhaps some here will need a set of perfectly flat plastic blank credit cards - say a set of Eight- each plastic card cut EXACTLY at the MM thickness you mentioned. Now there is an idea for a new billiard accessory- a shaft straightness measuring set of plastic cards. Any inventors out there have time during Covid to produce a set?

Each card would have a very visible number and/ or 8 different colors based on thickness- so the cue sellers can post pictures of their shafts with the correct color plastic card under the section of the shaft with the highest "LIFT" - I can just imagine the e bay/ pay pal/ credit card disputes when we start to standardize cue shaft "lift" measurements. A seller will post the shafts under the .25MM card and the buyer will receive the cue and with HIS measurement card set find out it was actually .5MM - I can't wait!
 

dirtvictim

Registered
Are we talking about BRAND NEW dollar bills that lie perfectly flat- or the ones in my wallet that have already been circulated for a year or more and do not lie even close to flat? I get where you are going with this and perhaps some here will need a set of perfectly flat plastic blank credit cards - say a set of Eight- each plastic card cut EXACTLY at the MM thickness you mentioned. Now there is an idea for a new billiard accessory- a shaft straightness measuring set of plastic cards. Any inventors out there have time during Covid to produce a set?

Each card would have a very visible number and/ or 8 different colors based on thickness- so the cue sellers can post pictures of their shafts with the correct color plastic card under the section of the shaft with the highest "LIFT" - I can just imagine the e bay/ pay pal/ credit card disputes when we start to standardize cue shaft "lift" measurements. A seller will post the shafts under the .25MM card and the buyer will receive the cue and with HIS measurement card set find out it was actually .5MM - I can't wait!
I totally see what you are saying and yes there will be arguments but there already is, this would help develop standards which I can see as progress.
Coinage is pretty standard and paper money is fine, I'm sure the minimal deviation would be acceptable in that thinness. A feeler gauge for lift, not a bad idea.
 

dirtvictim

Registered
ATTENTION ALL READERS.

Please visit the wonderful Cuemakers in the "Ask the Cuemaker Section."

We seem to agree that no taper roll is acceptable and I don't believe people with taper rolls should be the final say on this discussion.

Thanks, good day.
Taper roll exists so why not define parameters for everyone to use as a tool for a better educated exchange? Any good custom makers cue still has value even if a butt or shaft has a slight lift.
 

CuesDirectly

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Taper roll exists so why not define parameters for everyone to use as a tool for a better educated exchange? Any good custom makers cue still has value even if a butt or shaft has a slight lift.
I agree that it does exist but on a new cue it should not. To say it's on all cues is wrong.
 
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