Lowest deflection kielwood

in real practice the the equipment pros use would be a hindrance for the average player in that sport.

if you followed what some of the best players that ever lived did. ...

you would be talking to the rail the whole time you played.

you would have all kinds of weights on your hands and wrists.

you might have your stroke be a side arm motion.

you might have a short poke for a stroke.

along with guzzling beers.
 
skor said:
Yes, they switched back to wood but not kielwood.
One of the reasons to stay with wood is if you don't like to use a glove, with kielwood you need to use a glove (Yes I know there some out there who use kielwood and cf without a glove but they are the exceptional)
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I have used a variety of KW shafts, and some of them are better than others. Some are coated or waxed with a finish. Some are not. I would say it was equal to or perhaps smoother than untreated maple shafts. It's certainly less prone to collecting dirt and smears than CF. I'd say it is likely the shaft you are using, as opposed to a general statement about KW shafts
 
dendweller said:
I could be proved wrong but as far as I know it's LD properties are based on the fact that the wood is lighter than it was before it was baked.
So maybe it would of been a 3.8 ounce shaft before it was baked, it's now 3.3 or something. Probably helps but I don't think that weight loss in and of itself makes it super low deflection.

People I've played with that have them just like the way they hit. Depending on the maker it may be low deflection, it may not. I think that's what they were trying to say.
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My KW shaft is heavier than all the other shafts that I own....

Low deflection is a vague term as no one measures it and set a standard. So basically any shaft that will produce less deflection than a standard maple shaft can be called LD.... My standard for LD is the Predator 314-2 shaft, anything that deflects more is not worth the money.
 
skor said:
My KW shaft is heavier than all the other shafts that I own....

Low deflection is a vague term as no one measures it and set a standard. So basically any shaft that will produce less deflection than a standard maple shaft can be called LD.... My standard for LD is the Predator 314-2 shaft, anything that deflects more is not worth the money.
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Some cue makers weight them because some buyers don't like 3.3 ounce shafts. I don't think that a shaft that gets baked, ends up heavier. You're removing moisture and sugar, not gaining anything.
 
Jerry R said:
So, you believe that the equipment choice of the top 50 or so players in the world, 70 or 80% of which are sponsored by a cue company that currently does not make a KW shaft, carries more weight than the choices of former champions who choose to play with a KW shaft?
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I don't know why certain ex-top players choose KW, maybe they've tried CF and now they try the next thing, maybe the old saying that you can't teach new tricks to old dogs is true here and they just prefer wood or just can't get used to the CF color.

Here is another observation, all these players are Americans. I believe that KW is an American thing. Just like custom made cues. Yes there is a big market for custom cues in Asia but they are more into the big cues with a lot of bling for collecting and less for playing while a lot of Americans will get a custom cue, even a simple one for craftsmanship, for supporting local builders and some believe that they play better, this is the same snake oil for KW shafts that the rest of the world probably don't fall for... most production cue makers don't offer KW, it is mostly a custom cue maker thing.
 
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Flakeandrun said:
I have used a variety of KW shafts, and some of them are better than others. Some are coated or waxed with a finish. Some are not. I would say it was equal to or perhaps smoother than untreated maple shafts. It's certainly less prone to collecting dirt and smears than CF. I'd say it is likely the shaft you are using, as opposed to a general statement about KW shafts
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I've looked into my shaft again, it looks that the main cause is the taper. I will give it another go without a glove and pay more attention to it.
But it will still create more cue ball deflection than my 314-2 or my CF shafts.
 
dendweller said:
Some cue makers weight them because some buyers don't like 3.3 ounce shafts. I don't think that a shaft that gets baked, ends up heavier. You're removing moisture and sugar, not gaining anything.
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I think that it's a mix of tapper (more wood per inch), that fact that mine is a hybrid and has CF insert at the front end, should on paper reduce weight but maybe it doesn't, the weight of the wood at the start before it get's torrefied, maybe it was more dense than most maple and the joint type, mine is a metal insert for a 5/16x14 joint.
I doubt that there is a weight bolt in it.
I know that other people with the same shaft for different joint have a lighter shaft a bit.
And still my KW shaft is 4.3oz
 
skor said:
I don't know why certain ex-top players choose KW, maybe they've tried CF and now they try the next thing, maybe the old saying that you can't teach new tricks to old dogs is true here and they just prefer wood or just can't get used to the CF color.

Here is another observation, all these players are Americans. I believe that KW is an American thing. Just like custom made cues. Yes there is a big market for custom cues in Asia but they are more into the big cues with a lot of bling for collecting and less for playing while a lot of Americans will get a custom cue, even a simple one for craftsmanship, for supporting local builders and some believe that they play better, this is the same snake oil for KW shafts that the rest of the world probably don't fall for... most production cue makers don't offer KW, it is mostly a custom cue maker thing.
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Off the top of my head....

Meucci
Lucasi
Pechauer
Joss
Jacoby
Mcdermott (if you ask)
Schmelke
Pure X

All of these companies and more produce a kielwood.
 
BobPA said:
Off the top of my head....

Meucci
Lucasi
Pechauer
Joss
Jacoby
Mcdermott (if you ask)
Schmelke
Pure X

All of these companies and more produce a kielwood.
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Besides Lucasi and Pure X which are the same company and it's the same shaft, which is not American made, the rest are American brands that are more focused on American customers. They just offer the snake oil that some wants to drink.... Do you know how many brands are out there?

CF is not pushed because it's cheaper to make, it's pushed because it performs better, needs less maintenance, it's more durable and more consist than maple and KW.
If KW was better, that it would have been mass produced by the biggest companies that lead the industry today and it would have been cheaper to make.

Top sponsored players don't have to use CF if they don't like it. They have options within the sponsor's offerings, like Biado that uses a wooden Predator shaft or Skyler Woodward that plays with CueTec Avid and not Cynergy and there are others. The fact that most still go with CF, proves that they prefer it over wood, so I don't buy the "they have to use it because they are getting paid to" claim.

If KW was such a holly grail, a company like Predator would have been all over it by now. But it makes no sense for a companies that lead in the performance and the technology aspect of the cue to deal with something that doesn't perform as well...
 
Jerry R said:
I've watched Bergman play a few of the Ultimate Pool open event. He breaks 8 ball racks pretty hard with his playing cue. Haven't seen one explode yet.
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I break with my player 95% of the time. 6 piece LD (bored out) kielwood. So far so good. I figure I'm stress testing my build process. :LOL:
 
skor said:
Besides Lucasi and Pure X which are the same company and it's the same shaft, which is not American made, the rest are American brands that are more focused on American customers. They just offer the snake oil that some wants to drink.... Do you know how many brands are out there?

CF is not pushed because it's cheaper to make, it's pushed because it performs better, needs less maintenance, it's more durable and more consist than maple and KW.
If KW was better, that it would have been mass produced by the biggest companies that lead the industry today and it would have been cheaper to make.

Top sponsored players don't have to use CF if they don't like it. They have options within the sponsor's offerings, like Biado that uses a wooden Predator shaft or Skyler Woodward that plays with CueTec Avid and not Cynergy and there are others. The fact that most still go with CF, proves that they prefer it over wood, so I don't buy the "they have to use it because they are getting paid to" claim.

If KW was such a holly grail, a company like Predator would have been all over it by now. But it makes no sense for a companies that lead in the performance and the technology aspect of the cue to deal with something that doesn't perform as well...
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When did I ever say it was a Holy Grail? I am just countering your ridiculous statement that "most production cue makers don't offer KW, it is mostly a custom cue maker thing" which really is not true. the tirade you are on against KW makes me think some guy wit a KW shaft and a custom cue took your money and your girl.

You can keep your carbon snake oil, I like wood.
 
dendweller said:
Is his shaft hollow?
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Yes.
skor said:
I think that it's a mix of tapper (more wood per inch), that fact that mine is a hybrid and has CF insert at the front end, should on paper reduce weight but maybe it doesn't, the weight of the wood at the start before it get's torrefied, maybe it was more dense than most maple and the joint type, mine is a metal insert for a 5/16x14 joint.
I doubt that there is a weight bolt in it.
I know that other people with the same shaft for different joint have a lighter shaft a bit.
And still my KW shaft is 4.3oz
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A maple dowel can vary over 50 grams from lighter to heavier. Your 5/16x14 insert weighs 8 grams so the shaft weighs is about 4.0oz. Odds are it does have weight in it as 4.0oz shafts or heavier are only a small percentage of torrefied shafts, probably less then 10%. As for your comment that Kielwood shafts are snake oil... their main advantage is not weight reduction, it is the removal of free sugars and the change of cell structure that makes them more stable then non treated Maple. If weight requirements of the shaft are not an issue then the lightest shafts, either because ferrule diameter is quite small or the shaft just weighs less, it will have lower deflection. I don't believe the insert or lack thereof or weight behind the joint threads affects deflection.
 
skor said:
Besides Lucasi and Pure X which are the same company and it's the same shaft, which is not American made, the rest are American brands that are more focused on American customers. They just offer the snake oil that some wants to drink.... Do you know how many brands are out there?

CF is not pushed because it's cheaper to make, it's pushed because it performs better, needs less maintenance, it's more durable and more consist than maple and KW.
If KW was better, that it would have been mass produced by the biggest companies that lead the industry today and it would have been cheaper to make.

Top sponsored players don't have to use CF if they don't like it. They have options within the sponsor's offerings, like Biado that uses a wooden Predator shaft or Skyler Woodward that plays with CueTec Avid and not Cynergy and there are others. The fact that most still go with CF, proves that they prefer it over wood, so I don't buy the "they have to use it because they are getting paid to" claim.

If KW was such a holly grail, a company like Predator would have been all over it by now. But it makes no sense for a companies that lead in the performance and the technology aspect of the cue to deal with something that doesn't perform as well...
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Carbon fiber shafts also vary in weight and performance. I believe Rhino has multiple grade of CF shafts but I'm not sure how true is the so called difference. Metrics is pretty subjective though in my opinion and what are the determining factors that could contribute to better LD. Tip? Ferrule? Insert? Foam? Weight? Is it the composition of the CF that is used? Thickness?
 
maha said:
in real practice the the equipment pros use would be a hindrance for the average player in that sport.

if you followed what some of the best players that ever lived did. ...

you would be talking to the rail the whole time you played.

you would have all kinds of weights on your hands and wrists.

you might have your stroke be a side arm motion.

you might have a short poke for a stroke.

along with guzzling beers.
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not necessarily a pro. but us typical pool players differ in preferences as well. a fellow player for example asked me how I could stroke the CB effortlessly and draw with impunity. he got so interested into copying on what I do that he considered or think it was the equipment that I'm using. he did try but was having a tough time using my equipment since I'm handling a 21oz and he could only manage an 18oz for consistency. and I'm using an 11.5mm vs his typical 12.75mm. I do agree that it can be a hindrance especially if you are not used to it yet. while we get ideas from other players with regards to equipment, the biggest aspect is that choose what's best for you.
 
BobPA said:
When did I ever say it was a Holy Grail? I am just countering your ridiculous statement that "most production cue makers don't offer KW, it is mostly a custom cue maker thing" which really is not true. the tirade you are on against KW makes me think some guy wit a KW shaft and a custom cue took your money and your girl.

You can keep your carbon snake oil, I like wood.
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I believe that KW is not as mainstream yet compared to CF. as of the moment, CF shafts seem to find a bearing to the pool community after it was introduced a couple of years ago. I have no idea when KW came out but I believe it a newer than CF but older than the hybrid stuff we have right now? I think the notion that KW is for custom or is a custom comes to some sellers or builders are pairing it more with custom butts. I know one builder that stopped making CF shafts then transitioned to making and pairing his custom cues with KW.
 
Sheldon said:
I break with my player 95% of the time. 6 piece LD (bored out) kielwood. So far so good. I figure I'm stress testing my build process. :LOL:
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I played with a kid who broke really hard. I was standing next to where he leaned his break cue and noticed it was a 314. I asked him did he always use that as a break cue. He said yeah, his father had given that shaft to him when he'd got new one. The kid had subsequently gotten a new cue so used the 314 to break. Amazing what a bored out shaft can take.
 
Hail Mary Shot said:
I believe that KW is not as mainstream yet compared to CF. as of the moment, CF shafts seem to find a bearing to the pool community after it was introduced a couple of years ago. I have no idea when KW came out but I believe it a newer than CF but older than the hybrid stuff we have right now? I think the notion that KW is for custom or is a custom comes to some sellers or builders are pairing it more with custom butts. I know one builder that stopped making CF shafts then transitioned to making and pairing his custom cues with KW.
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Here's a line from a google search on torrification.
"Based on historical and industrial records, the first products that were torrefied include ancient, structural wood used by the Vikings and, in more recent history, agricultural products and wood components. "
For cues, Jeff Prather gets credit for being the first to use it. Another line, "Jeff Prather coined the name "Kielwood," deriving it from a ship's keel (backbone), and developed its use for cue shafts." Search on "who created kielwood"
 
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