Methods of Applying English

[JMW]

I thought it would be interesting to know what type of shaft and method or methods people use to apply sidespin. But please, lets not turn this into a debate about physics! There are many threads on that subject.

Here are some questions:

How long have you been playing?

Do you use a solid maple shaft, low deflection shaft or something else?

Do you apply sidespin using parallel english? (Lining up your stick "parallel" to that of a center ball stroke and then stroking down that line to make the shot.)

Do you apply sidespin using backhand aim and pivot? (Lining up a shot through the vertical axis of the CB, and then pivoting your backhand to apply whatever english you need, and then stroking down that line to make the shot.)

Do you apply sidespin using bridge hand aim and pivot? (Lining up a shot through the vertical axis of the CB, and then pivoting your bridge hand to apply whatever english you need, and then stroking down that line to make the shot.)

Do you apply sidespin using backhand swerve? (Lining up a shot through the vertical axis of the CB and ON THE HIT STROKE, swerving or curling the grip hand right before impact, rather than stroking straight down an intended stroke line.)

Do you use a combination of the above techniques? If so, why?

Do you know any other methods for applying sidespin?

Thanks for your time,
JW

 

[CaptainJR]

lets not turn this into a debate about physics!

Na, lets do it. And you forced me to.

You forced me to because you brought up bridge hand english. Not to many people have talked about that here other than me.

Your questions: I've been playing for about 40 years. Although there was a 10-12 year period in there that I didn't play but a couple games.
I use a regular shaft (not low deflection)

I use all of the methods you mention with one exception. I don't use parallel. Why? because it doesn't work at all. Nobody that is successful, uses parallel english. You may think you do, but you are most likely using bridge hand english. You think you are moving the back of the stick along with the front but you can't be. If you did you would miss the shot because of deflection.

There is only one position that the cue stick can be in when playing a certain shot, with a certain amount of side spin, at a certain speed, and make the shot. That is the position that gives the correct amount of compensation for throw and deflection. These methods of applying side spin are just different ways to get the cue stick to that spot. You can pivot to get to that spot. You can swerve to get to that spot. You can move your front hand to get to that spot. But if you move your front hand and your back hand in a parallel manor away from center ball line up, you can't get to that spot.

There is an assumption in the above statement. That is, when using side spin an adjustment it necessary to compensate for throw and deflection. The only way that parallel english can work is if your original center ball line up already includes the adjustment. In other words, what your moving parallel from would miss the shot. In this case you could move in a parallel manor from a position that would miss the shot to that one spot (mentioned above) that would make the shot.

 

[Andrew Manning]

I use a low-deflection shaft (predator 314), and I use parallel english WITH adjustment for squirt. True parallel english is a method for missing balls, plain and simple. Every shaft has SOME squirt, and parallel doesn't account for that.

With a low deflection shaft, though, the adjustment I have to make for squirt is very small, and thus fairly easy to accurately make. I don't like using the cue's pivot point, because I feel that it's hard to accurately determine, and also, I don't like stroking the cue in a direction other than where I'm aiming. Back-hand or front-hand english both involve finding the center ball line of aim and then rotating your cue off of this line in order to shoot. IMO, if you're not stroking the cue along your line of aim, you may as well be shooting with your eyes closed (which I've found is way easier than it sounds). So I pick a point of aim that I can stroke the cue towards, which means I make an adjustment for squirt before deciding my point of aim.

-Andrew

 

[supergreenman]

Thinking too much about something your brain adjusts for automatically.

This is totally speculation, but I think if you spend too much time thinking about this kind of thing, you're going to end up missing shots because you're making adjustments on something your brain has already adjusted for automatically through experience. I just don't think we give our brain enough credit.

Of course I could just be blowing smoke. Hopefully it's the same as purdmans special tobacco.

 

[henho]

I cue straight through the ball and you could say I use the parallel method. However, the actual line of the cue when applying english is not parallel to the line that would be used for center ball (otherwise you are not compensating).


Compensating for english is not something that needs to be studied and learned; however you do it is right. The best way to learn is to get out there and practice. There are certain types of learning that require studying, such as memorizing a list of words. Other types of more procedural learning occur automatically without any sort of input by you. For example if you pair the site of a cookie with an electric shock, you will associate the two without any conscious effort. Motor compensation is exactly the same. A colleague of mine studies motor behavior in odd environments; one of the things he does is attach prisms over people's eyes that will shift everything in their visual field by a certain number of degrees. Initially people will miss a target they reach for, but they very quickly (and automatically) learn to compensate for their altered environment. Applying english is no different; one simply has to get down and practice with a particular shot, and once they've discovered the correct degree of compensation, regardless of how they compensate, they'll be able to make that shot without having to recite to themselves what procedure to use. Kieth McCready frequently talks about the "feels" of different shots; he simply knows through experience how to strike the ball in a given circumstance.

 

[icem3n]

Do you use a solid maple shaft, low deflection shaft or something else?

I would recommend this if you are a beginner i.e. using low deflection shaft.

Do you apply sidespin using parallel english? (Lining up your stick "parallel" to that of a center ball stroke and then stroking down that line to make the shot.)

I don’t know what you mean here. But if it does mean what I think it is.. yes but not entirely parallel. You need to compensate on the shot. If it is a one-quarter angle cut shot, you will be aiming as you are going to miss the shot.

Do you apply sidespin using backhand aim and pivot? (Lining up a shot through the vertical axis of the CB, and then pivoting your backhand to apply whatever english you need, and then stroking down that line to make the shot.)

Do you apply sidespin using backhand swerve? (Lining up a shot through the vertical axis of the CB and ON THE HIT STROKE, swerving or curling the grip hand right before impact, rather than stroking straight down an intended stroke line.)

Do you use a combination of the above techniques? If so, why?

This is not the right way to do it. You will experience more misses on longer shots.
When you are intending to play English, you should aiming with side once you down on the shot.

Do you know any other methods for applying sidespin?

1. Understand deflection and throw. Get some pool books and read.
2. If you use left English, compensate by aiming slightly more to the left of the object ball and vice-versa. The greater the distance the more you need to compensate.
3. Training. Place an object ball nearer to the pocket. Drill till you are perfect. Then move object ball further away from the pocket ½ feet at a time.
4. No other method but training till you memorize the amount of compensation needed for various distance and various English(inside and outside)
5. No frequent change of cue. Each shaft reacts differently.

Good Luck..

 

[Cornerman]

There is only one position that the cue stick can be in when playing a certain shot, with a certain amount of side spin, at a certain speed, and make the shot. That is the position that gives the correct amount of compensation for throw and deflection. These methods of applying side spin are just different ways to get the cue stick to that spot. You can pivot to get to that spot. You can swerve to get to that spot. You can move your front hand to get to that spot. But if you move your front hand and your back hand in a parallel manor away from center ball line up, you can't get to that spot.

There is an assumption in the above statement. That is, when using side spin an adjustment it necessary to compensate for throw and deflection. The only way that parallel english can work is if your original center ball line up already includes the adjustment. In other words, what your moving parallel from would miss the shot. In this case you could move in a parallel manor from a position that would miss the shot to that one spot (mentioned above) that would make the shot.

This post is about as good as it gets.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

This is not the right way to do it.

Good Luck..

Just in case you read the intent of the post differently than others have, it wasn't "how do I use english?" It was "how do YOU use english."

It's a poll, not a request for help.

Fred <~~~ mostly uses backhand english or some form of aim & pivot

 

[tedkaufman]

I really don't think there is one method to compensate for english. If you only played on, says, new 860, red circle cueball, consistent humidity, same size and table make, same cue, and so on, then I think you could use one method all the time. But consistent playing conditions like that occur only in our dreams.

The reality of applying english is it takes feel. It is not something you can quantify by a method. I play on everything from 9 footers to various sized bar tables, with cloths varying from lightning quick to sludge, and cueballs that dramatically vary in weight and size.

On fast cloth the cueball tends to skid more; on wooly cloth it will curve more. A heavy cueball tends to deflect less, yet requires hitting further from the center to get it to spin. The adjustments go on and on. What I find with every place I play, I need a few shots to get the feel of what that cueball will do on that surface that day. This all gets processed by the internal computer upstairs; it cannot be quantified by a method.

There is no replacing experience and observation, then adjustment according to the conditions of the day (or night).

 

[Cornerman]

Parallel Aiming is Something Else

I cue straight through the ball and you could say I use the parallel method. However, the actual line of the cue when applying english is not parallel to the line that would be used for center ball (otherwise you are not compensating).

The method you are describing is NOT parallel aiming. Someone (on this group) set a confusion into the term by equating a straight delivery with the word "parallel." I have no idea why. Parallel english is a non-squirt compensating "method."

Parallel english: the cue strokes and hits on a line parallel to what would be a centerball aim.

Fred <~~~ doesn't use parallel english.

 

[Cornerman]

I don't like using the cue's pivot point, because I feel that it's hard to accurately determine, and also, I don't like stroking the cue in a direction other than where I'm aiming. Back-hand or front-hand english both involve finding the center ball line of aim and then rotating your cue off of this line in order to shoot. IMO, if you're not stroking the cue along your line of aim, you may as well be shooting with your eyes closed (which I've found is way easier than it sounds).

Do you mean that you don't like stroking in a line that's not aligned with a contact ghost ball? With any normal cue, that's what always happens. That is, the cueball doesn't go where you are aiming, when using english.

Obviously, once you find your new stroke line with backhand or front-hand english, you would stroke down that new aim line. Some people imagine an entirely new ghost ball on that new line of aim, even though the cueball will not hit it (in the center.)

Fred

 

[icem3n]

CueTable Help

Object ball half diamond away from pocket. Playing inside english. Same drill for simple outside or running english.

 

[icem3n]

CueTable Help

Proceed diamond by diamond till you reach 2nd diamond shown in diagram. Drill both inside and outside english(check and running side).

 

[icem3n]

Just in case you read the intent of the post differently than others have, it wasn't "how do I use english?" It was "how do YOU use english."

It's a poll, not a request for help.

Fred <~~~ mostly uses backhand english or some form of aim & pivot

Fred, I was just sharing. If JW is a PRO, he won't be asking..

 

[henho]

I cue straight through the ball and you could say I use the parallel method. However, the actual line of the cue when applying english is not parallel to the line that would be used for center ball (otherwise you are not compensating).


The method you are describing is NOT parallel aiming. Someone (on this group) set a confusion into the term by equating a straight delivery with the word "parallel." I have no idea why. Parallel english is a non-squirt compensating "method."

I have no idea how you would make a shot with the parallel method then. how is it possible to make a shot with no compensation? Please don't answer by using a predator.

 

[Cornerman]

I have no idea how you would make a shot with the parallel method then. how is it possible to make a shot with no compensation? Please don't answer by using a predator.

The only way is to blend your speed and elevation. Which is what most people (who don't know a thing about squirt compensation, but are still world beaters) naturally do.

Fred <~~~ does NOT advocate the parallel aiming method

 

[henho]

If I understand you correctly Fred, I highly disagree. You are telling me that most worldbeaters basically control how much the ball curves, and are basically slightly masse'ing on every shot? Then why are pros, and worldbeaters I might add, reluctant to shoot english with elevation unless absolutely forced to or deliberately masse'ing? Compensating for english by varying speed and elevation severely limits your shots; since on a given shot you are limited to a given speed. I would say the majority, if not all world beaters, use as little elevation as they can (on the vast majority of shots, if you are trying to make the ball come off the ob different there are few shots that require some elevation) and simply compensate for english by hitting the cb in a different spot.

Edited to say: I guess I can see how that would be the parallel method but I can't understand anyone who knows a thing about pool using it.

 

[Deadon]

CueTable Help

Proceed diamond by diamond till you reach 2nd diamond shown in diagram. Drill both inside and outside english(check and running side).

I use this same drill, especially with a new cue or shaft, except I lengthen the distance between the cue ball and object ball in order to obtain maximum deflection so that I can "learn" each cue or shaft. It's a great practice tool.

 

[3kushn]

Boy am I confused with the definitions so I just make some comments.

First of all I think the question was, what technique do you use to spin the ball.

I use several mathods depending on requirements. I clock the ball. 1:00,
2:00, 3:00 with perfect level stroke, with elevated butt, with diving tip, with rising tip for less swarp and straight lines off the OB, with swiping motion for max spin. I also clock the ball 1 tip, 2 tips and 3 tips from center choosing one or more of the other techniques mentioned above. There are so many things to talk about here.

I don't play much pool but when I watch good players they hardly ever use side spin unless they're in trouble. Position is acquired from speed control and cuing center ball (on the vertical axis thru the center). So I also think the question is how or what methods do I use to control the cue when side spin is needed. Different bridges also produce certain effects too. Grip position and style will also chang the applied english. Choke up for max spin. Rising tip with 7:00 or 5:00 will reduce draw but still put on a lot of spin. Arm stroke vs wrist for control.......
Anyway I'll stop here or it'll get out of hand.. Just wanted to throw in from strictly cue ball control vs pocketing balls. You guys pocket balls way better than I.

 

[seiyaryu55]

I've been playing seriously for two years. Played as a banger before that for many years on and off.

I use a normal shaft.

I use both backhand aim and pivot as well as backhand swerve. Normally bankhand aim/pivot for most shots with english and swerve for shots where the cue will be hit by a moving ball (such as close to a rail). Swerving allows me to get the cue away from the ball. When i started playing pool seriously I used parallel english. Of course it was a disaster and eventually "found" backhand aim/pivot.