Team manual says that local by laws can contradict national rules. That sort of makes my point that the rules are fluid. Why would the APA allow LO's to institute their own rules?
My first APA 8-ball night - lesson learned
- Thread starter donuteric
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Team manual says that local by laws can contradict national rules. That sort of makes my point that the rules are fluid. Why would the APA allow LO's to institute their own rules?
Every league can have bylaws but in my exp they try not to stray far from the national rules. I wouldn't say its fluid. You can either use your break cue or not. Probably in most cases you cannot. I would be interested to see the bylaws from a APA league that allows it.
As a reference here are the bylaws for the king county APA-
http://kingcounty.apaleagues.com/Uploads/kingcounty/Rules%20&%20Bylaws/Bylaws%20May%202011.pdf
I played APA for probably 10 years and never saw the by-laws. League reps would reference a rule in the by-laws but I could never get a copy. IMHO, since the APA is a national organization, everyone should play under the same rules. It's confusing to play by one set of rules locally, another in the Regionals, and still another in the Nationals.
I really like the APA format but I would like to see more consistency.
I sometimes wonder if the national APA office sets restrictions for the type of bylaws that can be used. In the league I play in the actual rules of 8ball and 9ball arent really changed.
It sounds to me that you were playing in a poorly organized APA league. We have the bylaws posted at the bar and they are sent to each team at the start of each season.
The responses prompted me to read my local bylaws, and found out that I can in fact change sticks during play. In fact, I can even break down the cue and only use the shaft alone for jumping purposes! No one has even told me that.
Item 23 at:
http://ripoolplayers.com/common/pdf/bylaws.pdf
Item 23 at:
http://ripoolplayers.com/common/pdf/bylaws.pdf
Now if they would just let us push out in 9ball! Thats the one I am most interested in. I don't really care about jump shots because I can barely clear a cube of chalk
Now if they would just let us push out in 9ball! Thats the one I am most interested in. I don't really care about jump shots because I can barely clear a cube of chalk
Just ask before the match. I did, and my experience has ben largely positive!
Local ByLaws
Here is a local bylaw for you guys. Gonna throw it out here to see if this is used anywhere else. I don't currently play APA but have several friends that do. The previous 2 sessions the team that won their local division has been told if they do not participate in the next session they do not get paid the money for winning the local playoffs. The session before this one the team that won was going to take a session off & did not get paid as they said screw it and quit. This previous session the winning team was going to take the summer off due to seasonal work in the area and was told the same thing. That team decided to stay so to get paid, a whopping $70 a man.
I have NEVER heard of this or seen any type of writing in the rules whether local or national when I did use to play. Is it just my thoughts here or does this sound a tad bit forcing, manipulating, or simply WRONG.
Here is a local bylaw for you guys. Gonna throw it out here to see if this is used anywhere else. I don't currently play APA but have several friends that do. The previous 2 sessions the team that won their local division has been told if they do not participate in the next session they do not get paid the money for winning the local playoffs. The session before this one the team that won was going to take a session off & did not get paid as they said screw it and quit. This previous session the winning team was going to take the summer off due to seasonal work in the area and was told the same thing. That team decided to stay so to get paid, a whopping $70 a man.
I have NEVER heard of this or seen any type of writing in the rules whether local or national when I did use to play. Is it just my thoughts here or does this sound a tad bit forcing, manipulating, or simply WRONG.
There is something similar to that around here. If you win your division, then you qualify for regionals. If your team doesnt return for the next session, you automatically forfeit your qualification. Also, if your team does return for the next session, and you dont keep your winning percentage above 50%, you forfeit your qualification.
My take behind this entire thing is that the LO doesnt want to miss one penny of that money coming in, and he wants to make it very hard for a team from his division to go to Vegas.
My take behind this entire thing is that the LO doesnt want to miss one penny of that money coming in, and he wants to make it very hard for a team from his division to go to Vegas.
We have some similar restrictions here, as well, and I understand where you're coming from. And I agree with you, the LO's are most certainly interested in maximizing their income, and to an extent there isn't anything wrong with that.
I can understand the LO expecting a team that has is eligible for their Vegas-qualifier to continue playing. The LO is going to be paying to send them to Las Vegas, they ought to continue in the league. It is also an anti-sandbagging issue, as well. If you don't play, you can't "go up", can you?
The idea about keeping the team winning percentage above 50% after you've qualified is also to limit sandbagging, i.e. throwing your matches once you're qualified, to keep your handicaps down. Our bylaws state that a team "can" be disqualified if that happens, meaning it isn't automatic, and that the LO has some recourse if he truly believes the team is dumping. Yet if they are having a bad run, he doesn't have to automatically forfeit them. Last year my team was close to our LO having to make a call on us, but we ended up just over 50%. Trying all the while, mind you. (If you don't believe that, I can tell you we just finished tied for 1st place this last session, while we were already qualified. We certainly do "try", all the time.)
It is interesting to see and hear some of the different bylaws throughout the country. Ours don't seem to be too far off from the standard National rule set, fortunately. That area that allows jump cues... that's a drastic change from national. As I said, interesting...
I was as surprised as you when this thread prompted me to read the bylaws. Jump cues ain't allowed, but players can break down their cue and use the shaft to jump.
That's the problem. Every LO has their own set of rules and they don't necessarily follow the national rules very closely. Seems to me like the APA would want a consistent set of rules across the entire organization. Particularly since players from different areas may play each other in national events. The by-laws could conceivably affect handicap calculations. They certainly confuse many of the players as evidenced by this thread.
This makes me wonder how the APA can have a fair handicap on the national level. Not just because the by-laws vary from place to place, but because handicaps can be influenced by them.
The division I shoot in has so many weak players that I am positive that any of our SL5 players would lose to a SL3 from any other area/state. And I mean an EVEN race.
I would be worried that if my team were ever able to play in a national event, we would be crushed due to the fact that the higher SL players we have are so weak.
The division I shoot in has so many weak players that I am positive that any of our SL5 players would lose to a SL3 from any other area/state. And I mean an EVEN race.
I would be worried that if my team were ever able to play in a national event, we would be crushed due to the fact that the higher SL players we have are so weak.
The real bottom line is that someone from every team truly should read the official Team Manual, especially if they are going to Nationals.
Truly, everyone should read them. But at least one person on the team (one would think the captain might have a bit of self-interest) most certainly should have read it, as well as the local bylaws. I am that guy on our team (not the captain, sigh) and if we are fotunate enough to qualify for Nationals I will definitely be going back through the manual, with far more scrutiny.
I can't imagine an LO not being willing to provide a copy of the bylaws to any of their players, as well as a rule book. Our LO sends out a copy to every team, every session. Standard operating procedure. The National rules are available on the APA website in PDF form, as well.
We all do have a bit of responsibility here, folks. The good news is that most of the rules are pretty much standard, and most don't differ too far from what everybody else plays. So when you break it down to the specific differences, it's much easier to digest, and use when talking to other folks about considering APA, or if just playing by APA rules for whatever reason. Some places around here hold local tourneys and use that rule set, since the majority of players there play APA and it's easier than trying to sort out the differences. Where I play, we don't do that, so it's become customary to be able to tell someone that the differences before the tourney starts.
Truly, everyone should read them. But at least one person on the team (one would think the captain might have a bit of self-interest) most certainly should have read it, as well as the local bylaws. I am that guy on our team (not the captain, sigh) and if we are fotunate enough to qualify for Nationals I will definitely be going back through the manual, with far more scrutiny.
I can't imagine an LO not being willing to provide a copy of the bylaws to any of their players, as well as a rule book. Our LO sends out a copy to every team, every session. Standard operating procedure. The National rules are available on the APA website in PDF form, as well.
We all do have a bit of responsibility here, folks. The good news is that most of the rules are pretty much standard, and most don't differ too far from what everybody else plays. So when you break it down to the specific differences, it's much easier to digest, and use when talking to other folks about considering APA, or if just playing by APA rules for whatever reason. Some places around here hold local tourneys and use that rule set, since the majority of players there play APA and it's easier than trying to sort out the differences. Where I play, we don't do that, so it's become customary to be able to tell someone that the differences before the tourney starts.
I think you are making it sound worse than it is. For the most part the rules are the same with some small changes (i.e. breaking you stick down and using the short end to jump).
If people who play APA are confused that is on the LO for not properly communicating the bylaws or the player for not taking the time and effort to read and understand the rules.
Are you sure it's your winning percentage, and not the top half of your division? That's the way it is in the team manual. The manual also says "subject to heavy scrutiny and/or loss of eligibility."
Justadub was pretty much right on, although (at least in my area) it's not about money at all. If your team qualifies for my LTC, I want to keep tabs on the players. This rule forces the teams to remain visible and to try. Without it, teams would (and they used to) qualify in the Summer, take nine months off to practice, and come back with much improved abilities. It can take a few rounds in the LTC for that to show, by which time it can be too late, at least for the teams that have already been cheated.
As far as prize money, you should get paid what you won, whether you stick around for subsequent sessions or not. Anyone who doesn't should contact the national office, as this is not an acceptable practice for league operators. Now, if what you won was travel assistance and you decide not to travel, that's a different story.
In the division I play in if you win either the summer or fall session your team has too play or you'll loose your spot too play for Vegas.(we get are prize $$$ if we play next session or not). If we don't finish in the top 50% the next session are team doesn't get too draw for a wild card spot for playoffs.
The more times a team qualifies for the Vegas tourn. Theirs a chance that team could recieve a bye the 1st night of the tourn.
The team that wins the trip to Vegas has too play inthe summer session. Also in order too get your Vegas $$$ you have too go to Vegas.
In my league you can jump with your playing cue(no jumpers or broken down cues)
And I believe BrokeStroke is rite in that your handicap is influenced by the competition in your division.(the more better players in your division,the less your gonna win = lower handicap). And different bylaws for jumping a ball.
The more times a team qualifies for the Vegas tourn. Theirs a chance that team could recieve a bye the 1st night of the tourn.
The team that wins the trip to Vegas has too play inthe summer session. Also in order too get your Vegas $$$ you have too go to Vegas.
In my league you can jump with your playing cue(no jumpers or broken down cues)
And I believe BrokeStroke is rite in that your handicap is influenced by the competition in your division.(the more better players in your division,the less your gonna win = lower handicap). And different bylaws for jumping a ball.
I don't play in the APA anymore, either. But I still do play on barboxes in an independently run, no-handicap league. Even though there's no handicaps, it works because the league is broken into divisions by team strength, so regardless of your team strength, you're still playing to win your division.
Wow, that is messed up.
I can understand the part about going to nationals, but not being paid money you already earned by winning in the local playoffs? That is absurd.
Sometimes for whatever reason (scheduling, family stuff, work, etc) a team might need to take a session off, and to penalize them by stealing money they already earned....wow. I would not be back!
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