My qualm with USAPL 8Ball (Fargo system)

WinnerBreaks

Registered
Tuesday night is our hall's USAPL Fargo 8Ball night. Roughly 30 teams play.

My race was 85 to 29 (I had to reach 85 before my opponent got to 29).

Now, I have no issue with giving up weight and playing lower ranked players every once and a while. I think it's a challenge playing lower ranked players and it's a different type of game altogether, kind of fun. Plus, it lets me watch new players and see if they might be worth working with (if they are truly interested and willing to learn or just there to have fun with their significant other/friend).

This being said, I think there is something inherently wrong with the scoring system (race system) of the Fargo System. I won 6 straight racks and received 14 points each rack and still had to play through an entire extra rack because I needed 1 more point to reach 85.

How frustrating. I'm of the opinion that this variable of the system is just silly.
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tuesday night is our hall's USAPL Fargo 8Ball night. Roughly 30 teams play.

My race was 85 to 29 (I had to reach 85 before my opponent got to 29).

Now, I have no issue with giving up weight and playing lower ranked players every once and a while. I think it's a challenge playing lower ranked players and it's a different type of game altogether, kind of fun. Plus, it lets me watch new players and see if they might be worth working with (if they are truly interested and willing to learn or just there to have fun with their significant other/friend).

This being said, I think there is something inherently wrong with the scoring system (race system) of the Fargo System. I won 6 straight racks and received 14 points each rack and still had to play through an entire extra rack because I needed 1 more point to reach 85.

How frustrating. I'm of the opinion that this variable of the system is just silly.

There are, of course, two ways to do a points race.

A. A race can be won in the middle of a game. It is over as soon as one player reaches his or her play-to-number.

B. All games get played out, and when both players are within 14 points of their respective play-to numbers, the winner of the final game wins the match.

Either is OK. They are just different ways of doing it. Importantly though, the people determining the play-to numbers based on Fargo Ratings need to know which one it is make the races right.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't like the idea of just getting one ball and then stopping. That's not how you're supposed to play the game.

Actually I don't like points at all. Leagues ought to just count games won and lost.
 

MSchaffer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't like the idea of just getting one ball and then stopping. That's not how you're supposed to play the game.

Actually I don't like points at all. Leagues ought to just count games won and lost.
But 14.1 is OK?
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tuesday night is our hall's USAPL Fargo 8Ball night. Roughly 30 teams play.

My race was 85 to 29 (I had to reach 85 before my opponent got to 29).

Now, I have no issue with giving up weight and playing lower ranked players every once and a while. I think it's a challenge playing lower ranked players and it's a different type of game altogether, kind of fun. Plus, it lets me watch new players and see if they might be worth working with (if they are truly interested and willing to learn or just there to have fun with their significant other/friend).

This being said, I think there is something inherently wrong with the scoring system (race system) of the Fargo System. I won 6 straight racks and received 14 points each rack and still had to play through an entire extra rack because I needed 1 more point to reach 85.

How frustrating. I'm of the opinion that this variable of the system is just silly.

The rule in my USAPL area is that you play through the rack because that last rack still counts towards your handicap, and if both players are on the hill, then you have to win that last rack even if you reach the points you need to win. So if I need 10 points and my opponent needs 1, they still need to win the rack to win. I guess they can round the games up or down, that may make it a bit more even for the better player.

That is a big spot, it's like an A player playing a C player. Makes it tough for the better player to win since a single mistake can mean a hill hill game and you can't let them to the table often to run out balls. Often in 8 ball I don't care much what the other player does since you can win the game no matter what they do if they don't make the 8, but with a point handicap you can win every game and still lose if they poke away at their balls, say if there is a bad layout for your to run out.

I remember one match I broke and made 4 stripes but had to take solids due to the layout. I ran out the game, but my opponent got credit for the 4 balls I made for her and she never got up out of the chair LOL They count all balls down for the player, even if it was a crap shot or pocketed by the other player.

Has nothing to do with Fargo though, Fargo is the rating system, not the point and rule system in the league.
 
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mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't like the idea of just getting one ball and then stopping. That's not how you're supposed to play the game.

Actually I don't like points at all. Leagues ought to just count games won and lost.


It DOES change the game a bit. And we had to convince our selves with tens of thousands of games the game win results were substantially the same as for 8-Ball before accepting the games in FargoRate. The bonus for winning the game must be 3 points or more. If the 8-Ball just scored another point we would not accept the games.

Ran across a league last week that plays 9-ball 1-point per ball with 2 for the 9. We said no thank you.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It DOES change the game a bit. And we had to convince our selves with tens of thousands of games the game win results were substantially the same as for 8-Ball before accepting the games in FargoRate. The bonus for winning the game must be 3 points or more. If the 8-Ball just scored another point we would not accept the games.

Ran across a league last week that plays 9-ball 1-point per ball with 2 for the 9. We said no thank you.

Correct me if I am wrong but its my understanding that you are having the same issues with bcapl 8 ball. 1 point for each ball and 2 for the 8 . Aside from the fact that not all bcapl leagues use the same format. That's why its still in the testing stage in bca and yet Fargo has been implemented in usapl without any problems.


As for the op's issue. We have a lot of apa players who play usapl also....including me..

Several of them feel the way you do ....mainly because they are used to stopping when you reach your points required fo win. It has caused a few to be upset that they reached their point total first in the last rack only to lose the match when their opponent wins the last rack and reached enough points to win the match.

It does not bother me at all because I look at every rule in every league like this......my opponent and I are held to the same rules ...whatever they may be so the rules are a moot point in my book.
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Correct me if I am wrong but its my understanding that you are having the same issues with bcapl 8 ball. 1 point for each ball and 2 for the 8 .

There really isn't such a thing as "bcapl 8-ball" in a league format.

Some leagues just play 8-ball games and base everything off of games won and lost.

Others use the "10-point scoring system," where a game win is 10 points and the loser gets the number of balls pocketed for a loss (maximum 7).

Then there is the "17-point scoring system," where the loser gets balls pocketed for points (maximum 7) and the winner gets 10 + the number of balls remaining on the table. (So all game scores add to 17).

The downside of the points scoring is is bastardizes the game a little. But the (I think) bigger upside is it allows for more dramatic situations in league where players of all ability can be critical for winning a "round," a group of 4 or 5 games.

Aside from the fact that not all bcapl leagues use the same format. That's why its still in the testing stage in bca and yet Fargo has been implemented in usapl without any problems.

The variety of formats is the big deal. There are a lot of variations. 3 or 4 or 5 player teams, play 1 or 2 games per round. play 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball. play races, score one of several ways, handicap it or not, handicap in points format based on FargoRate or on "averages," and on and on.

LMS is being rolled out now and is in use for I think all of the formats above.

As for the op's issue. We have a lot of apa players who play usapl also....including me..

Several of them feel the way you do ....mainly because they are used to stopping when you reach your points required fo win. It has caused a few to be upset that they reached their point total first in the last rack only to lose the match when their opponent wins the last rack and reached enough points to win the match.[...]

I can understand that. But again, they should recognize the "race to" numbers would be different if that rule was different.
 
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