My table doesn't like to draw

this is NOT your problem. besides, wax doesn't last long when you're playing anyway. don't get addicted to waxing the balls. dick lane recommends just a "little bit" of wax in the polisher. i use no wax at all just auto polish. waxing causes too much change in the reaction of the balls. it will not only effect draw it will effect adversely the bounce off the cushion especially if you use follow into the cushion and of course it dramatically effects throw... when you buy a new set of balls, do you wax them before playing? do they wax new sets of balls at national tournaments? no..... forgetabout the wax. just polish and work on your stroke.

As a secondary test. I can place the cue ball close to the object ball and draw it two rails no sweat. The problem is with the drag across the cloth for long distance.

I would not argue with anyone about my stroke. I am an amateur player with an 8 rating on about any scale. The point is, whatever my stroke is or isn't, the response is so different from my table to others. I play at a local bar on a crappy Valley with totally dead rails but the cue ball draws like crazy. I play at our state events on 9' tables and 7' Diamonds, same thing. I draw way too much and have to be very careful.

Even on non draw shots, pocketing a ball in the side and going around 3 rails back to the middle I have to hit harder or with more running English than I would anywhere, except the Valley with the dead rails :)
 
I have to locate a hand held black light to check the cloth. I seem to remember a "this side down" sticker or something but nothing that said Simonis. I believe whatever it is we go right side up but will confirm.

Built a ball polisher and used rejuvenator and then auto wax but that did not change the play noticeably. I am going to try the Johnson's floor wax mentioned above.

Just give me a call, 702-927-5689
 
Get some Johnsons paste floor wax, clean and shine the cue ball with it, then report back with your results.

I ended up with Johnson's Orange Pledge. I cleaned the cue ball and one object ball. The draw was clearly better. I don't know if waxing is a long term solution, will have to see.

There are two surfaces, the cloth and the ball. I now have a pretty slick cue ball but feel like the cloth may still need some help.

The goal isn't to have such a slippery surface I can show how far I can draw the ball. The goal is to more closely match what I play on in league so I don't over hit and over draw at league. I am not going to destroy my rails so they will play like the bar but I don't mind speeding up the cloth if I can do that. I am just trying to make my speed adjustments a little easier.

I just ordered a portable black light to see what cloth I may have.
 
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I ended up with Johnson's Orange Pledge. I cleaned the cue ball and one object ball. The draw was clearly better. I don't know if waxing is a long term solution, will have to see.

There are two surfaces, the cloth and the ball. I now have a pretty slick cue ball but feel like the cloth may still need some help.

The goal isn't to have such a slippery surface I can show how far I can draw the ball. The goal is to more closely match what I play on in league so I don't over hit and over draw at league. I am not going to destroy my rails so they will play like the bar but I don't mind speeding up the cloth if I can do that. I am just trying to make my speed adjustments a little easier.

I just ordered a portable black light to see what cloth I may have.
Also, check rail bolts for tightness, rails will respond slow if loose.
 
Thanks RKC for reminding me about the Johnson's paste wax. Heck, I didn't even think they still made it. It's even still in a yellow can. I remember my mom using the heck out of this stuff back in the 60's and 70's to do the oak floors. I don't think I would want to use it on todays hardwood flooring though since most come pre-finished. I think the paste wax was for the bare unfinished wood. I remember using it on the CB back in the day just because it was the only wax around the house. It sure made the CB move on draw shots that's for sure. The only drawback I noticed though was the lack of response from side spin when contacting the cushion.

https://www.acehardware.com/departm...MIhrHOgZP53wIVmYvICh13YgvtEAQYAiABEgJ8jfD_BwE
 
Thanks RKC for reminding me about the Johnson's paste wax. Heck, I didn't even think they still made it. It's even still in a yellow can. I remember my mom using the heck out of this stuff back in the 60's and 70's to do the oak floors. I don't think I would want to use it on todays hardwood flooring though since most come pre-finished. I think the paste wax was for the bare unfinished wood. I remember using it on the CB back in the day just because it was the only wax around the house. It sure made the CB move on draw shots that's for sure. The only drawback I noticed though was the lack of response from side spin when contacting the cushion.

https://www.acehardware.com/departm...MIhrHOgZP53wIVmYvICh13YgvtEAQYAiABEgJ8jfD_BwE

That makes perfect sense to me. Too slick to grab the rail. Everything would bank according to natural angles and spin would have less affect.
 
Also, check rail bolts for tightness, rails will respond slow if loose.

Rails are good and rebound accurate. It is long journeys across the cloth that have the extra drag effect. The ball rolls well and rebounds well but the drag action on the slide or back spin of a long shot takes off more back spin than other tables.

When I play on other tables it feels like some crazy world. I over hit and over spin a lot. I am not sure I would want my table to play that fast other than those are the conditions I compete under.

I hit a lot of drag shots for stun at distance. On a long shot I hit farther below center and softer, allowing the back spin to wear off and the ball to be sliding at impact, instead of hitting closer to center with more speed. On other tables these shots don't time out. They still have a lot of back spin on them and jump back 2-3 feet and get me in trouble.

Speed control is one of the hardest variables for me to adjust to on other tables. I play on my own so much the speed is intuitive. It is very hard to tell myself on each shot to hit higher or softer than what my intuition wants.
 
The problem is with the drag across the cloth for long distance.

this is common with older cloth that has chalk embedded and if it's humid there will be much more friction on the cue-ball. it's the chalk in the cloth that drags on a reverse spinning cue-ball. it may be that the nylon in the cloth wears before the wool causing more friction. what you are experiencing is a normal change in the playing conditions over time. i don't know if it's the rainy season in Arizona but if it is, that and older cloth causes this issue. i used to play in texass on my GCI with 760 no AC and it was a very different playing experience from the air conditioned, pool hall. if your cloth was new you could outdraw Rembrandt. AGAIN: waxing the balls is only a temporary "solution" to normal playing surface degradation that will adversely effect play in ways that you do not want. in some cases waxed balls shot at a low angle that would normally miss, go in.... hitting the cueball into the rail with a medium stroke with follow will kill the cueball much more easily than doing so with non-waxed balls et...

the argument that you are using the wrong kind of wax is laughable. sure there might be some differences between the waxes but AGAIN: do they keep the balls waxed during major tournaments? if they did i can guarantee that the pros would be *****ing up a storm.....it causes all kinds of unnatural behavior and AGAIN the wax does not last long and the playing conditions will change dramatically in a short period of time.
 
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this is common with older cloth that has chalk embedded and if it's humid there will be much more friction on the cue-ball. it's the chalk in the cloth that drags on a reverse spinning cue-ball. it may be that the nylon in the cloth wears before the wool causing more friction. what you are experiencing is a normal change in the playing conditions over time. i don't know if it's the rainy season in Arizona but if it is, that and older cloth causes this issue. i used to play in texass on my GCI with 760 no AC and it was a very different playing experience from the air conditioned, pool hall. if your cloth was new you could outdraw Rembrandt. AGAIN: waxing the balls is only a temporary "solution" to normal playing surface degradation that will adversely effect play in ways that you do not want. in some cases waxed balls shot at a low angle that would normally miss, go in.... hitting the cueball into the rail with a medium stroke with follow will kill the cueball much more easily than doing so with non-waxed balls et...

the argument that you are using the wrong kind of wax is laughable. sure there might be some differences between the waxes but AGAIN: do they keep the balls waxed during major tournaments? if they did i can guarantee that the pros would be *****ing up a storm.....it causes all kinds of unnatural behavior and AGAIN the wax does not last long and the playing conditions will change dramatically in a short period of time.
I appreciate the information. Thanks for commenting.

New and old cloth. I was disappointed in the cloth day one. It played exactly like the 860 Simonis I took off. If the nylon content was 30% in stead of 10% I could not tell it, no sheen and no additional spin. How old is "old cloth". Mine is a little over a year and gets daily play. I vacuum it then steam clean it now to remove all the chalk I can but I know there is still likely to be a lot of chalk still on the slate even the steamer doesn't get.

Humidity. AZ is about 5%. It is more humid right now but the other tables I play on are in AZ as well. All of us have AC although not running this time of year. One bar is actually burning a woodstove and one has swamp coolers. The one with the swamp cooler is horrible. I never use powder but am forced to there. My bridge hand is literally wet. Tables are crap, floor is spongy, rails are bad but I can still draw the cue ball at least equal to my home table. The conditions are so bad the draw doesn't really even matter but luckily I only play there once a season. The draw issue is year round at my home table. If I didn't have other tables to compare it too I would not even see it as an issue. It is the differences that are troubling me.

The idea was the car wax put an acrylic finish on them which caused more friction. I don't know about that but the furniture polish (not floor wax) does make them a lot shinier. :) So at the least they look nicer.

I don't want to "rev up" my table by waxing the balls but I do clean and polish them. I never considered the type of polish could actually increase the friction. KingCobra is the one who pointed that out to me.

Thanks again for your input. I am still considering getting a new ball set, not for the draw just because I know the set I have is old and may be a little dead if that makes sense. Any ideas there?
 
Sorry, but the type of wax used can have a major effect in how the balls react. Put clean and shine liquid floor wax on the balls, then bank a ball cross side but bank it just a little long of the side pocket....and watch the object ball bounce off the second rail....back in the direction it just came from...LOL

This is CRAZY I just used the Johnson's Furniture Polish to clean and polish the ball set. The first thing I noticed is the 8 ball, which came from an older set when mine disappeared, now more closely matches the rest of the set. It was always duller. Still is a little but only slightly.

Every day, I shoot a rack of straight in full table stop shots as a warm up. Now, instead of stopping, the cue ball is drawing back a half table. I do this every day and have been for over a year. I KNOW what the stroke is to time out the drag to stop the cue ball on impact at the second diamond. I hit it exactly like I do every day, slightly below center medium speed. Now the cue ball is drawing back half a table.

I have always felt a slightly powdery feel on the ball set. It is now replaced by a clean high gloss. I don't know how else to account for this. I am telling you I am not stroking the ball a bit harder or lower. I will now have to adjust the stroke to get the stop. I will have to move up on the cue ball or hit softer yet.

I don't know if this is permanent or due to wax and will wear off or even if it is "revved up" due to a slippery cue ball. I also don't know if having the other balls more slick is making a difference. Maybe they were killing the spin. I simply do not know what is going on.

What I do know is this action more accurately mimics what I get on most of the other tables I play on. I will just have to see if it wears off and how it affects other aspects of play.

It will be odd to learn my cleaning and polishing technique was causing problems if that is the way this turns out.
 
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i'll bet that your stoke changes when you are playing at home. i play better in a crowded pool hall with loud music. stroke is an illusive quality.
 
i'll bet that your stoke changes when you are playing at home. i play better in a crowded pool hall with loud music. stroke is an illusive quality.

Well, my stroke don't change no matter where I play, so I think you're way off base with that statement😁
 
Well, my stroke don't change no matter where I play, so I think you're way off base with that statement😁

I doubt my stroke made an immediate change after polishing the balls.

What I did notice for a long time was powder on the ball set. I assume it was chalk dust. I would wipe the cue ball with a wet cloth but it didn't do any good. I am beginning to think something in the method of cleaning and polishing with my homemade ball polisher and car wax was creating static or some other surface action which attracted the dust. Cleaning and polishing with the furniture polish removed the dust and left the ball set slick.

The table would still be the same, whatever chalk dust is in the cloth is still there but it does not seem to want to stick to the balls.

The table is playing faster in general but the draw is significantly different. I have to tone everything down. It is also a lot more enjoyable to play now. My table is playing the way I would like it to. I don't want it to be crazy but this speed is very nice. I would only have to make a very small correction to adjust to the fastest of tables now.

I plan to do regular vacuum and steam on the cloth, polish the ball set regularly and see how it goes. I did order a black light to check the cloth with but I am leaning towards it just being chalk dust on the balls that caused the trouble. I think a regular program of cleaning and polishing with the correct materials will be the solution I am looking for.

Thanks to everyone for all the help. Especially kingcobra for the great ideas on the polishing.
 
Well, my stroke don't change no matter where I play, so I think you're way off base with that statement��
i'm not talking about your stroke.. the game is mostly mental. whatever keeps you in the zone....
 
I doubt my stroke made an immediate change after polishing the balls.

What I did notice for a long time was powder on the ball set. I assume it was chalk dust. I would wipe the cue ball with a wet cloth but it didn't do any good. I am beginning to think something in the method of cleaning and polishing with my homemade ball polisher and car wax was creating static or some other surface action which attracted the dust. Cleaning and polishing with the furniture polish removed the dust and left the ball set slick.

The table would still be the same, whatever chalk dust is in the cloth is still there but it does not seem to want to stick to the balls.

The table is playing faster in general but the draw is significantly different. I have to tone everything down. It is also a lot more enjoyable to play now. My table is playing the way I would like it to. I don't want it to be crazy but this speed is very nice. I would only have to make a very small correction to adjust to the fastest of tables now.

I plan to do regular vacuum and steam on the cloth, polish the ball set regularly and see how it goes. I did order a black light to check the cloth with but I am leaning towards it just being chalk dust on the balls that caused the trouble. I think a regular program of cleaning and polishing with the correct materials will be the solution I am looking for.

Thanks to everyone for all the help. Especially kingcobra for the great ideas on the polishing.
Just a note for you, steam cleaning the cloth will also slow down the speed because it allows the cloth to loosen up. The best way to clean the cloth is with a cap full of woolite, in about a gallon of HOT water, a clean cloth, single layered after wringing it out as tight as you can, scrubbing in circles, just like cleaning off a counter top. Then, if there's NO wax in the seams, you can iron the cloth, set the iron on the wool setting, then iron the cloth. The heat from the iron will cause the wool and nylon weave to shrink, but don't let the iron sit there and burn the damn cloth. And DON'T do this if you have wax in the seams, or the heat will draw the wax right up into the cloth.
 
Just a note for you, steam cleaning the cloth will also slow down the speed because it allows the cloth to loosen up. The best way to clean the cloth is with a cap full of woolite, in about a gallon of HOT water, a clean cloth, single layered after wringing it out as tight as you can, scrubbing in circles, just like cleaning off a counter top. Then, if there's NO wax in the seams, you can iron the cloth, set the iron on the wool setting, then iron the cloth. The heat from the iron will cause the wool and nylon weave to shrink, but don't let the iron sit there and burn the damn cloth. And DON'T do this if you have wax in the seams, or the heat will draw the wax right up into the cloth.

I was thinking of using a blow dryer after the steam to shrink the cloth even more. The steam is 300 degrees.
 
Of course it does draw but not like so many others I play on.

It has always been hard to draw on my 88" Beach table. Not just for me, hard for everyone who plays on it. I had Simonis 860 cloth and switched to Simonis 760 thinking the extra nylon would cause it to be more "slippery". The cloth looks exactly like what I replaced. It has no sheen as I expected the 760 to have. I felt like the supplier had some tan 860 in stock and assumed I would not know the difference so shipped me 860. There was nothing to sow it was 760 or even Simonis except the invoice and a Simonis Spot Marker. It may well be I don't know the difference but there does not seem to actually be any difference.

The cloth is "relatively tight". As tight as we could stretch it. I also steam clean it so that should keep it pretty tight, assuming the wool would shrink a little. Maybe we were just not able to stretch it correctly to begin with.

I understand draw is technique but I am the same player on other tables and the cue ball comes flying back at me. I hit a full table stop shot and the ball unexpectedly backs back two feet.

There are some full table down and back drills which are almost impossible on my table. With a perfect hit it can be done but not reliably.

Anyway the ball set came with the table and I have no clue what they are. I am using a 3 red dot Arimith cue ball but the rest are whatever they are. I am considering buying a new set of Arimith balls to see if that matters.

My questions are about which mechanical factors affect draw the most:
1. Table construction or quality of the slate - not much I can do there
2. Cloth
3. Cloth installation
4. Cue ball
5. Ball set

I might get a new set of balls just for the sake of quality, even if they would not change the draw response. If so what set would you recommend?

I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well those premium Cyclop balls cures the lack of draw on your table. I picked up a set of Centennials yesterday down at the local Brunswick dealer and all I can say is wow! I'm assuming of course that all the premium balls perform very similar. It's like they have a permanent wax coating.
 
I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well those premium Cyclop balls cures the lack of draw on your table. I picked up a set of Centennials yesterday down at the local Brunswick dealer and all I can say is wow! I'm assuming of course that all the premium balls perform very similar. It's like they have a permanent wax coating.

I am hopeful. Especially when I see what a simple cleaning and polishing with the right wax accomplished.

I was a little turned off by some posting on the new Aramith Tournament series playing "heavy" compared to the Super Pro. I only had one opinion to go by but the trade off between longevity and good action was not appealing to me. I would buy a new set every year if that was what it took.
 
this is ridiculous.... we're back to the brand of wax used on the balls. LMAO!

i think you need to send your balls away to have them electroplated with Teflon. ;)
 
this is ridiculous.... we're back to the brand of wax used on the balls. LMAO!

i think you need to send your balls away to have them electroplated with Teflon. ;)

All sarcasm aside, pretty funny BTW. Not sure you can electroplate Teflon though. I think they just spay it on.

What KingCobra told me was using an acrylic auto "wax" isn't wax, it puts an acrylic coat on the balls and the acrylic coat adds friction instead of reducing it. If I would just have properly cleaned the set it might have been enough. As I mentioned earlier, I noticed a powder on the cue ball when I picked it up. Actually it was on all the balls but I pick up the cue ball most often so I noticed it there most. I would wipe it off with a damp cloth but the powder came right back. That was when I started cleaning the cloth so often, but the powder on the balls remained. The powder was almost certainly chalk dust.

Something I was doing in cleaning, polishing the balls in my homemade polisher, or whatever, was either creating a slightly tacky or static charged finish which attracted the chalk dust. If you have ever watched Dr. Dave's videos on what a chalk smudge does to the contact between balls you know the effect is large.

After one clean and polish everything changed.

As to equipment affecting draw or table action, anyone who has ever played on a bar table with the big cue ball knows you get substantially less draw as the object ball is colliding with the cue ball below its center, "killing" the backspin. The cue ball is also heavier.

All that said, your comments about stroke are clearly relevant. If I was having trouble drawing the ball in general it would be one thing. My situation was the extreme differences in reaction based on where I played. I can draw the ball anywhere (almost, there might be one exception) but I am just trying to get my table to play more closely to the league conditions. I mention "almost" as I play at one bar with a swamp cooler blowing directly on the table during the summer. The balls are literally wet. None of use know quite what to do then. There is a lot of mis cuing and cussing. :rolleyes:

As I wrote this post I got to thinking about the big cue ball. I am using a measles cue ball on a who knows what kind of set that came with the table. I weighed them and the cue ball is 10 grams heavier than the object balls. I don't know how big a deal that is but it is just one more thing that does play a role. I am looking forward to getting a new matched set.
 
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